DMH concerns/solution.

[Morgan Vening]

I've seen several people mention an issue with the power level of Dead Man's Hand Masters, and while I wasn't able to capitalize on it (due to my own ineptness) in my most recent game, Dreamer/Collodi crew seemed pretty potent.

Most of the issues I've seen though, have been due to the duplication of roles, and the effect that doubling them up causes.

The ones most notable are Lilith/Nekima and Ramos/Hoffman. But I can also see Nico and certain Ressers, as well as my own experience with Dreamer/Collodi, and someone just mentioned Zoraida/Collodi.

So, rather than banning DMH outright as the first step, what do people think of the idea of disallowing DMH to be hired into another Master's crew, and vice versa. So, you can play Lilith, and her Nephilim, or Nekima and her Nephilim, but not at the same time?

Non-DMH Masters can still be hired (clearly something Wyrd wants), just not DMH. Sort of how they were in the Beta as a separate faction, but still with the full range of access to Upgrades/Versatiles and OOK for their respective factions. 

[Freman]

Probably a reasonable idea.

[ArD]

I have no intense desire to prohibit DMH on my monthly tournaments, hovever I was totaly desroyed by Lilith+Nekima and have seen the power of Colody+Zoraida.

So for the big events to use @Morgan Vening suggestion can be a good solution.

[Jesy Blue]

I'm all for banning DMH from all tournaments. 

I haven't even faced them yet, and I don't care in friendly games, but I feel the outcome of tournaments push the story along in the overall narrative; DMH is no longer in the narrative.

[cbtb11235813]

I think it is still far too early to make any real decisions like this. The game is just over a week old (officially at least). Instead of putting house ruled limits on things out of the gate, lets give it 6 months and see what happens. If DMH/Multi-master/whatever else people are worried about are consistently dominating sizable tournaments, then do something about it, instead of limiting some cool stuff just because something seems too strong right now

[LeperColony]

9 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

I think it is still far too early to make any real decisions like this. The game is just over a week old (officially at least). Instead of putting house ruled limits on things out of the gate, lets give it 6 months and see what happens. If DMH/Multi-master/whatever else people are worried about are consistently dominating sizable tournaments, then do something about it, instead of limiting some cool stuff just because something seems too strong right now

I agree that a shakedown period is necessary before considering significant alterations.  That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if multi-master ends up needing a second look.  Part of the issue is costing.

Malifaux has always proceeded under the presumption that all masters are equal, and excepting the Viks, they're costed in that way.  But we all know that all masters have never been equal, and I doubt they're all equal now.

[Angelshard]

@LeperColony they're just as equal now as they have always been... It's just easier to see with a price tag on the model. In m2e you had cache and totem cost to help regulate masters. 

[Clement]

There's a lot of grumping going on about multiple masters in general right now.  It's entirely possible the problem is NOT that they're DMH, but that they're just another Master caliber model on the table.

Coming up with a houserule specific to DMH like this might not solve the problem, just disguise it.

[Vangerdahast]

After 4 or 5 games with Hoffman, I have the impression that Ryle could be a little overpowered.

He can use his Power Token to gain the Mask necessary for his Quick Reflexes Trigger on his Gatling Gun. He also has a positive flip built-in which permits to compensate defensive techs like Serene Countenance, Concealment,... He can self-heal and the Augmented Keyword has plenty of other sources of healing (Hoffman + Attendant at minimum). As well as Armor +1 and Hard to Kill. He has regulary Fast from Hoffman and can shoot six times with Quick Reflexes (not each Turn but 4 or 5 shots are frequent). Even engaging him doesn't prevent his shooting as he can use Creep Along to leave a fight.

I generally manage to have 5-6 Power Tokens on him in  Turn 2. If he is well placed he becomes a shooting tower. He basically never need to use Soulstones  apart from damage reduction (perhaps to gain a Mask if he runs low on Power Tokens).

I think he should lose something. The positive flip on Gatling Gun cannot be touched as other models have the same weapon. Perhaps he could lose Hard to Kill, his Heal or the Quick Refexees Trigger.

That don't make the Hoffman player win games automatically but it can be frustrating for the opponent.

 

Have Hoffman players (or opponents) the same impression?

 

[theamazingmrg]

12 minutes ago, Vangerdahast said:

After 4 or 5 games with Hoffman, I have the impression that Ryle could be a little overpowered.

He can use his Power Token to gain the Mask necessary for his Quick Reflexes Trigger on his Gatling Gun. He also has a positive flip built-in which permits to compensate defensive techs like Serene Countenance, Concealment,... He can self-heal and the Augmented Keyword has plenty of other sources of healing (Hoffman + Attendant at minimum). As well as Armor +1 and Hard to Kill. He has regulary Fast from Hoffman and can shoot six times with Quick Reflexes (not each Turn but 4 or 5 shots are frequent). Even engaging him doesn't prevent his shooting as he can use Creep Along to leave a fight.

I generally manage to have 5-6 Power Tokens on him in  Turn 2. If he is well placed he becomes a shooting tower. He basically never need to use Soulstones  apart from damage reduction (perhaps to gain a Mask if he runs low on Power Tokens).

I think he should lose something. The positive flip on Gatling Gun cannot be touched as other models have the same weapon. Perhaps he could lose Hard to Kill, his Heal or the Quick Refexees Trigger.

That don't make the Hoffman player win games automatically but it can be frustrating for the opponent.

 

Have Hoffman players (or opponents) the same impression?

 

If Zoraida can have her double Obey nonsense, Ryle is fine!

[GrumpyGrandpa]

11 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

If Zoraida can have her double Obey nonsense, Ryle is fine!

Strange comparison, no?

I'd like to see Lady Justice get her damage track changed to 2/4/5 because the Zombie Chihuahua has MV 5.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

Joking aside, it seems like people have intentionally, somewhat ignored DMH themes during testing due to their presumed ban from competitive games. I don't blame them.

As a result, they seem somewhat unbalanced now. I'd personally like to see them continue being banned from competitive games, but have no issue seeing them in friendly,  none-competitive games. Even when paired with other masters.

I'm surprised to see so many Henchmen (or atleast I think they are henchmen) allow them in tournaments, however.

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Joking aside, it seems like people have intentionally, somewhat ignored DMH themes during testing due to their presumed ban from competitive games. I don't blame them.

As a result, they seem somewhat unbalanced now. I'd personally like to see them continue being banned from competitive games, but have no issue seeing them in friendly,  none-competitive games. Even when paired with other masters.

I'm surprised to see so many Henchmen (or atleast I think they are henchmen) allow them in tournaments, however.

Why people do what they do is up to them, but if people chose to not test them in the testing because they are going to be banned in competitive play, and now ban them in competitive play because they are over powered and didn't have enough testing, then they have themselves to blame for their self fulfilling prophecy.

And if they start the edition being banned by everyone because they might be over powered, its hard to find out if they are or not. If they are played now, and then after some time people still think they are over powered its possible to ban or errata them. If they never get used, then those models and rules may never be seen again.

I  think the DMH rules are an experiment on Wyrds behalf to see if you can "soft ban" models and see how much use they would still get. If a soft ban means they get no play at all, then I doubt there will something similar next edition, and you may just get masters being removed outright. (I don't know, its just speculation)

 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

10 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I'm surprised to see so many Henchmen (or atleast I think they are henchmen) allow them in tournaments, however.

this. they should know that the DMHs are not properly tested, unfinished products which prematurely entered the market. would you use a medicine which has a note "not tested - may cause a cancer" on it's wrapping? no. for the same reason you don't allow DMH.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Why people do what they do is up to them, but if people chose to not test them in the testing because they are going to be banned in competitive play, and now ban them in competitive play because they are over powered and didn't have enough testing, then they have themselves to blame for their self fulfilling prophecy.

players involved in testing were doing it voluntarily and non profit. no one can blame them for not testing everything properly. it was up to Wyrd to provide us with finished product. if everyone was aware that the DMHs did not receive a proper testing (and I have an impression that this was a common sentiment among testers and Wyrd was certainly aware of that), printing their cards should have been witholded.

[theamazingmrg]

26 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Strange comparison, no?

I'd like to see Lady Justice get her damage track changed to 2/4/5 because the Zombie Chihuahua has MV 5.

Nah.  Just comparing one strong model's nonsense to another strong model's nonsense.  The difference is that Zoraida's nonsense has made her look like one of the games top-tier Masters, whereas Ryle being good doesn't make Hoffman appear any stronger.

20 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Joking aside, it seems like people have intentionally, somewhat ignored DMH themes during testing due to their presumed ban from competitive games. I don't blame them.

As a result, they seem somewhat unbalanced now. I'd personally like to see them continue being banned from competitive games, but have no issue seeing them in friendly,  none-competitive games. Even when paired with other masters.

I'm surprised to see so many Henchmen (or atleast I think they are henchmen) allow them in tournaments, however.

If they aren't allowed in tournaments, its hard to get an understanding of whether they are too powerful and should be banned from tournaments.  It's still early days.  If DMH models do end up being problematic, then I'm sure the Henchman will side with Wyrd's official ruling.

[Rufess]

If playing Nicodem would get myself a cancer then yes I would ban them in my tournament. Putting the name of a necromancer inside my epitaph seems strange to me.

Besides of the safety issue, I think it is really depends on the nature of the tournament. For my local meta, tournament is a more casual form to gather players to play (because they may just playing other game, miniature or not, in normal days), so I don't think DMH would break anythings. For more serious tournament I can see banning DMH for a more fair and competitive environment.

[longfanz]

dual masters are worst in my opinion

[Adran]

2 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

this. they should know that the DMHs are not properly tested, unfinished products which prematurely entered the market. would you use a medicine which has a note "not tested - may cause a cancer" on it's wrapping? no. for the same reason you don't allow DMH.

I think you will be very disappointed by a large amount of the human race.  and the consumption of untested drugs for various reasons. (And the number of people that smoke even though it is proven to increase your risk of cancer for little to no known benefit to you).

Did you know Nutmeg is a physcoactive drug? It is, but the levels required to get there are very similar to the levels  needed to cause death. I know this lethal level, but I am still very happy to put nutmeg in my cakes and eat them. And the safety data sheet for Caffeine tells you that if you consume ANY you should immediately contact your doctor? I still drink Coffee and Tea.

 

I don't know how much testing DMH received, and I don't know how much testing is "required". Some models require more than others (M2e Leviticus went through both public beta tests because they couldn't get him to work and pulled him from the initial release on M2e for further testing to come out in wave 2

. He still got errata'd. ).

I think it is too early to conclusively say something is broken. I personally believe the best thing for the state of the game is to allow them and if they are broken, get them errata'd.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Why people do what they do is up to them, but if people chose to not test them in the testing because they are going to be banned in competitive play, and now ban them in competitive play because they are over powered and didn't have enough testing, then they have themselves to blame for their self fulfilling prophecy.

Not sure if I agree with this. The M3E testing-phase released a load of changes and new models - All of which required a lot of attention from the testers. I cannot fault a volunteer beta-tester for not focusing on a theme or model that is, quoting Wyrd themselves "not traditionally allowed in Tournament or Story play".  I personally read that as them being ban-able from competitive play from the get-go.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

And if they start the edition being banned by everyone because they might be over powered, its hard to find out if they are or not. If they are played now, and then after some time people still think they are over powered its possible to ban or errata them. If they never get used, then those models and rules may never be seen again.

It was my understanding that they'd be ban-able from the beginning of the errata. Irregardless of their power. They'd still get used in none-competitive matches. Like I wrote before, I don't mind them being used in friendly, none-competitive matches. 

If future "patches" add them to the none-DMH roster, then I'd imagen they might need a new review. Which is a shame, but possibly also a byproduct of their DMH label during the testing phase.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I  think the DMH rules are an experiment on Wyrds behalf to see if you can "soft ban" models and see how much use they would still get. If a soft ban means they get no play at all, then I doubt there will something similar next edition, and you may just get masters being removed outright. (I don't know, its just speculation)

You might be right on this one. Which is a shame, but also the price of having Malifaux follow a narrative-driven gameplay. Something I personally prefer, but can also see why it would upset others.

[Clement]

7 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

this. they should know that the DMHs are not properly tested, unfinished products which prematurely entered the market. would you use a medicine which has a note "not tested - may cause a cancer" on it's wrapping? no. for the same reason you don't allow DMH.

What would "properly tested" look like exactly?  They went into the betas, they got tested, they got feedback.  I spent quality time working through Nicodem's stuff in DMH during the betas and feel like he got to a pretty good spot overall honestly (even though his zombie keyword is weirdly old school).  Games were played, feedback was given, and revisions were made, just like every other master.

Dragging it back to my previous point, is there anyone complaining about DMH masters *specifically*, and not "I paired master X with DMH master Y and omg" kind of stuff?  Because I'm only seeing those sorts of posts (Collodi + Dreamer, for example).  If THAT's the problem we're dealing with here, like half the masters in the game can get pretty degenerate when paired with another master who compliments them well.  Banning DMH isn't going to even sort of address that issue.  And in a month's time we'll be back here looking to ban some other thing.

[Angelshard]

While some DMH models might have received less attention than others the same can be said for the rest of the keywords. I've yet to be convinced that DMH masters are over the top, Collodi might be a great second master, but so is Zoraida. 

[Paddywhack]

8 hours ago, Adran said:

If they never get used, then those models and rules may never be seen again.

I think that assumption might be going a bit far. These are pretty important models in the history of Malifaux and I expect we'll see most of them back in time. Heck, we still have the Explorer's Society to fill out - maybe Nicodem somehow inhabits the body of someone and decides hiding in the badlands is the best play while he recoups losses. Similar possibility for Lilith. I don't think these characters are gone for good, just taking a break so Wryd could rebalance factions and themes. 

[TeddyBear]

I think that @Morgan Vening had a good idea, for example in my meta, some people started playing again, "feeling reassured" by the fact, that they could use their only masters that they had (dmh in fact) it must be said that even the shopkeepers / henchman do their "interest", i think nobody wants to lose  a customer, so when he organizes a tournament (if that player only has dmh, he will use dmh! it seems obvious to me..)

These rules, do not have to be inevitably home rules, they could be also official rules.. i would also add that: "dmh masters, should be used only with keywords and versatile models of their original faction."

After all, Wyrd had been clear about Dmh, they would have been "particular" models and repeatedly had asked us to test them carefully. Only with time and admitting them to tournaments, however, will it be possible to arrive at right decision.

[trikk]

A lot of Henchmen allow DMH because there were players that played just the masters that are now DMH. So instead of "You can't play with us until you buy new models" they are going more towards "Hey, we can't promise this will be legal in half a year, but for now come on and see how the game changed"

 

As for dual-master crews. I'm strongly for banning them in Gaining Grounds and making an alternative format for them.