Adran

Game size - this depends on who you are playing and what they are happy to do. If you just turn up to an established group, they are most likely to be playing 50 ss games because that's the normal size. Its probably less daunting to learn at a smaller size because you have less to keep in mind at any one point. On the whole it is easier to learn if you have fewer profiles to learn, so using multiples of the same model is a good idea. It also gives you a bit of redundancy, and a good chance to actually see how 1 stat line does in a wide range of situations, which will be helpful later on. Henchmen hardcore is an option as a way to learn, but I certainly used to find it was a little to combat focused to give a good guide to what actually matters in many malifaux games, but I've not tried it in M3 yet, and its not just a kill everything game anymore, so that is better. It does have to downside of disallowing the character that most people pick to play (the master), so won't appeal to all as a way to learn. Good luck with learning.

This I think is one place where you seem almost blind. The stitched are hitting with a powerful damage track, on an attack the opponent can't cheat to defend against, and even if the result is a tie, the stitched is capable of cheating the damage flip. That's all very powerful stuff. How many models out there are likely to be able to do 10 damage in their activation. The stitched needs a small amount of luck (Tieing or winning a random card flip ) and 2 severs in hand. Tell me any other model that needs that little effort to be able to deal 10 damage. Sure, the stitched may hurt itself instead but that's not something the opponent has any control over, so from a counter play point of view you have to treat the model as able to deal 10 damage in its activation to something that is 6" away as long as it can see them. You also need to consider that the keyword has pushes so you can't just end your activation 7" away and be safe from the second gamble. DF 6, armour +1 and multiple ways to heal (granted not entirely in this models control) as well as downsides for the most common form of attack . Very few models can seriously consider killing this in 1 hit. It also comes with as many wounds as it costs. This is a very tanky model for its cost. It is also a relatively trivial summon for 2 different models, so killing it doesn't automatically deal with it as a problem. You also seem to think a range 6 attack is poor. It is not. Sure its a shorter range than most guns, but it doesn't contain any of the disadvantages of it being a action. It is a much longer range than any and its of a similar threat range to most models charge and . (Again without the downsides of having to actually move the model and the risk of terrain, or ways to protect or prevent it happening, although without the upsides of letting you move and do it). Go and look how many ways for a model to damage something 6" away from them that don't suffer all the downsides of . It is quite rare. In my mind the negative play aspect of the stitched is that there doesn't seem to be counter play to what it does. A single stitched activation with no support is capable of dealing 5-8 damage to one of my models with almost no counterplay. You appear focused on trying to change the model but without actually changing the model. Your Hans Example appears quite flawed as it assumes that Hans wins 2 duels when the stats are equal. That's a much lower chance than the stitched winning 2 gambles in a turn because of the ability of the stitched to cheat the cards in a normal duel. The chance of a blessed of December killing a stitched in 1 activation is pretty low. Its not impossible, but you are likely to need to get multiple hits and doing moderate or better damage on negative damage flips at least once. (Holding a high makes it a lot easier, but you need that to be higher than the highest card the stitched holds for your focus attack to let you do 7 damage)

I think this is a historic issue. If you look at the first 2 editions, then Neverborn were full of fast scheming models from their early releases (terror tots, Silurid s and Gupps have always been good models to move and scheme). This meant that the faction didn't gain too many extra models because these good options already existed. and this lack of gaining cheap fast models wasn't really obvious because neverborn already had some of the best cheap fast models. Now in the bright new M3 world, two of these have left the neverborn, and the third has been re-purposed to lose its speed(Basically tots lost the ability to take 2 walk actions for 1 action). Neverborn is probably not the worse faction at this (I think its still better than guild on the whole here) but it has dropped to a much lower level overall. I think part of it is countered by the generally higher speed in faction, and general reliance on to attack. The faction is likely to be able to get to a lot of the places you want to interact as it goes around fighting. Its not so good at running and hiding to avoid the fights and just scheme anymore to be topping that list.

I may have misunderstood Solkans work, but from what I read of it, at 8 removed cards you typically have a mean of greater than 8. So if your list is doing 4-5 LD a turn, then by turn 3 you should actually be happy to see an 8 disappear to improve your deck. (obviously the lower the card the better, but if you're just looking at the deck improvement then this flip would still be improving the deck by turn 3, even if it happened on turn 1) I agree 8s do win duels and are normally an ok card to have on a flip, (they are also amongst those annoying cards that if they are in your hand at the end of the turn that you can't decide if you want to keep them in hand or put them in the discard pile.) That said, my perception of the cards value, and its actual value in a Lucid dream affected deck is probably not going to be in agreement all that often.

Corrrect. It is the disengage action that does not allow that model to take an interact action during the same activation.

<Mod hat> I've edited the topic title as it was getting hard to work out which thread was which <\Modhat> In answer to your question, No I don't think they should be errata'd at this time. I think they are models that are easy to use and effective, but there are plenty of valid counter options out there, and if they are in a significant number of Arcanist lists, then you should start seeing the counters appearing. I'm not saying they aren't too strong, I'm just saying I think that the edition is too young to see if these are too efficient for their cost. I'm not sure that they have the same perception of overpowered and unfun that some of the others do.

Others have complained it is the least useful of the riders, just being a big beater which they can already hire several of in faction. That probably means its at about the right level...

<MODHAT> I'm not seeing this thread go anywhere new, its just the same people making the same points. So I'm ending it <\MODHAT>

Hello and welcome. I'm going to start out with general malifaux stuff and then focus a little more on Molly. Malifaux is not a typical war game. You can win the game without killing anything, and you can even win the game when you have no models left. Its very easy to get carried away trying to kill the enemy, but if you're not careful that can cost you the game. You need to remember how you are going to score points (and how you think the opponent is going to score points). One of the things I like the most is the ability to build your crew after you know what the game is going to be. That said, there is potentially a lot to learn, and its often a lot easier to learn when you are using the same models over and over again to start with. In general most people play at 50 ss and most crews are about 8 models. so the numbers I'm talking about below are based on that. If you're playing a smaller game the exact numbers will be wrong, but hopefully you get an idea. (Also worth noting that I'm talking in general terms. there are crews out there that don't conform to these, or break the rules in someway). Even playing as elite as you can you are probably going to have at least 5 models and is very rare that crews go much over 10 models (a few special cases such as Hamlin and his rats normally). So there isn't a huge difference between an elite list and a swarm list. In M3 there is slightly less incentive to play a swarm list, as one of their strengths was to allow you to out activate your opponent, and now because of the pass tokens that's not the case. On average models have about as many wounds as they cost in terms of soulstone, so regardless of which type you play you will probably have the same number of wounds (about 60) in your crew. The swarm crew will have more actions to use, and Actions are vital to score points. Most of the point scoring actions are in the form of the interact action, and it doesn't matter if you cost 2 ss or 15 ss your interact has the same effect. The advantages of the elite crew are 2 fold. Firstly, most malifaux models perform as well on 1 wound as they do on full wounds, so its not until you start removing models from the table that you will impact on the crews capability. Its a lot easier to remove a model with low wounds than one with high wounds, so the swarm crew will generally start to see its capabilities reduced earlier than an elite crew would. Secondly, a lot of the power in Malifaux is based on your control hand, and that is 6 cards no matter how many models are in your crew. If you have a smaller crew you will make fewer duels across the turn, and so your ability to cheat fate is improved, and in general an attack action of an elite model will have a greater effect than an attack action of a cheap model, and so using your control hand to force the more powerful action through will net you more effect than forcing through a weak action. Molly is a master that breaks some of the normal malifaux rules (which is fairly common). Her keyword makes use of a lot of card discard and card draw. This already can change the things you need to look at as you play. Whilst a lot of players will expect to have 2 good cards, 2 average cards and 2 poor cards that they can use to cheat with, Molly and her crew have a good use for those poor cards in the form of Discard, and also her crew can easily let you be drawing multiple extra cards over the turn, giving her 10-12 cards that she will be able to use to cheat with or discard. This means that playing Molly will give you a very different outlook on a control hand to most other crews. She is not a master that does a lot of damage her self, instead she is a master that denies the opponent things. If she is your leader you opponent suffers damage if a model declares the same action twice in a turn. Lots of Models only have 1 attack action, so if they are fighting to get to attack you a second time they will hurt themselves. (Generally a better approach is to spoend an action concentrating, and use the focus conditon to have 1 good attack, but its still restricting. ). She also gives out slow from one of her attacks, restricting the things a model can do. She has the abiltiy to remove a marker from the table and draw cards. The most common marker to remove i a scheme marker, and those are normally the way people score their scheme points, so you can use this to deny them those points (Normally this means the opponent will try and pick schemes that don't need markers, which gives you extra knowledge of what your opponent is doing). She can also give your minions extra activations. This is probably what her elite list misses out on the most (and why she probably wants to bring a few good minions even when you are trying to be elite) because extra activations are good becasue it can allow you to choose when to risk models and control the engagements a little more. And you are turning 1 master action into 2 actions else where.

I don't claim to fully know the costs involved, so this is largely based on previous experience. The old crew boxes in first edition were purchaseable individually as well as as a crew. The Boxes typically were cheaper by about 1 figure. This was a while ago and based off a different material, so those details may not hold true, but the chances are that it still works out at a slight discount to buy groups of models than it does to buy those models individually. So it is possible that seperating the weyundo here would have cost those TT players more in buying 2 boxes rather than the 1. And you can pretty much guarantee that every person that bought Minako Rei would want to buy the Wayundo.

You have to declare the trigger before you compare final duel totals, so once you are flipping for damage you have already declared the trigger to use

You're missing the climbable trait, which is important for this question. As nothing actually stops you moving through blocking terrain, you need either the impassable or the climbable trait to do this. Pushes do not grant permission for you to change height (unless you push up a hill or staircase). The rules only allow you to climb terrain during a walk action. (Its slightly hidden in the movement section in page 14 electronic).

I fully agree its not a game plan to have a joker happen on a certain flip. I also agree that Fiendish gamble is much more powerful on a card flip when you couldn't normally cheat, meaning that it is very strong when you use gamble your life, much more so than using it on the melee attack to hit. Perhaps that's a possible change to it as an ability - add the line that "if this flip is used for Gamble your life, the opponent may cheat their flip." But the fact I can't plan for it is not the same as saying it doesn't happen. And that's what I was objecting to. And actually if I faced a stitched the red joker against the fiendish gambled attack is probably one of the better times for it to show up. Its giving me an effective 2 action swing, including wasting a once per activation ability. That's a relatively strong use of the red joker, I can't think of many more efficient uses (Summoning is one that is probably better if you need the 14 for a TN).

Sorry this is untrue, its hyerbole The stitched can't guarantee 100% that it will win. In the circumstance where you have used your black joker already and you hold at least a 4 in hand, you have lucid dreamed away a 13 and your opponent has already used their red joker then yes you can, but if you replace the 13 in Lucid dreams + holding at least a 4 in hand, vs holding a 13 in hand, then there are a lot of times that a lot of models can GUARANTEE an attack. ( The stitched needs less requirements to "guarantee" it can Hit Titania with its ml attack than with its Gamble your life for example). It is entirely possible for this model to miss 2 gambles in its activation even if you have already got the 13 removed from the game. It might not be as likely to happen, but it is Literally possible. It is also possible that it can miss 3 gambles during its activation if you make it fast. (So unless you meant it wasn't literally possible for it to miss 4 times because it isn't possible for it to make 4 attacks in an activation. It might be less likely that this model fails all its attacks, but I hate hyperbole presented as facts.

1 Headlines secrets exposed - The enemy must take an interact action. If they do so within 8" of Nellie then she will get to gain focused and a card (breaking news), but the enemy will control the action so decide which interact choices to make (drop a marker which will be friendly to them, remove all markers in base contact or a game specific interact). If they are within 2" of Nellie then she will control the action and count the model as friendly. This means she won't get Breaking news, but she will choose what type of interact action is taken. She will still have the other restrictions, such as a scheme marker can't be dropped with in 4" of another friendly scheme marker. 2 No I don't think this does count as Nellie resolving an interact action just because she is controlling the action (Its like a modle with obey is controlling the action after the obey, but they don't count as resolving an action for things like Hazadous terrain). 3 Yes. I believe the friendly and enemy state are mutually exclusive, so if you are told that you count as friendly, you no longer count as enemy for that time.