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Maniacal_cackle last won the day on December 5

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  1. One thing to be careful of with the BBS is 22% of the time you're going to be dealing 3 damage even when you relent (flipping all moderates or above). That is a pretty disastrous outcome on candy or kade, so might be better to stab something else.
  2. Interesting fact: the ~13 inch circle the stitched has with its 6 inch attack represents ~10% of the board. Add in the movement from the stitched, and it threatens over 1/3 of the board if I haven't miscalculated (ignoring terrain). 3 stitched can cover nearly an entire empty board with their threat ranges, I believe. Obviously there is going to be some limitations to that (though cover and concealment don't matter), but it does give a rough idea of how massive their range is.
  3. Through soulstones use, yes, but then the stitched crew is gaining a significant resource advantage. The overall point isn't that they can kill anything (you CAN prevent it). It is that the damage ignores so much and is so easy to generate that avoiding it costs the enemy far more than it cost to generate the damage. Killing masters is generally at least supposed to be non-trivial. I can't think of any masters that don't take significant work to kill if you're not bypassing their defensive tech. Indirect damage from blasts and splash can be avoided a lot more easily (just space out your models), and will commonly do 1 damage, not five. Stitched can more consistently get their damage off AND do more damage than blast attacks. Lacking irreducible damage is perhaps an issue, but the nightmare keyword already ignores armor and incorporeal, some of the most common things you need irreducible for.
  4. I agree so hard. I'm just going to sculpt a sloth (the animal) to use as my Sloth (the henchman).
  5. Okay, I reviewed masters and their defensive abilities. I thought this would be interesting information, because it indicates a general idea of how much defensive tech Stitched bypass. Devastating These have their defensive tech completely bypassed and have a decent (>50%) chance to be killed in one activation with two severes. Colette Lucius Mattheson Dreamer Youko Major These have their defensive tech bypassed and are majorly vulnerable, but not quite as devastatingly as the above. Rasputina Captain Zipp Som'Er Teeth Jones Pandora Kirai Molly Prof. Von Schtook Jakob Lynch Moderate These have a significant amount of defensive tech bypassed. Marcus Ophelia LaCroix The Brewmaster Ulix Turner Wong Nellie Cochrane Asami (bypasses her tech, but she heals exceptionally well) Shenlong Doesn't include models like Toni Ironsides, or Euripedes. These have their tech bypassed, but have other factors mitigating that (such as high health). Nor does it include commonly bypassed tech (such as defensive triggers against melee attacks). It also excludes stuff that seems super minor (such as Basse's 2" push, but I did count some 3" pushes where they seemed important). Zoraida seemed borderline as bypassing her trigger is huge AND her huge willpower, but all ranged abilities do that, so I left it off. Seamus is borderline as his terrifying is so crucial to his survival, but anyone can bypass it with a low cheat. Nekima has her stuff bypassed, but I left her off. And that's just masters! They are supposed to be some of the toughest models to kill in the game. Masters are only one part of the game, but this is hopefully indicative. There are what, 40-50 masters in the game? And Stitched significantly bypass the defensive tech of over 20 of them. That'd probably be fine if you could only run one stitched. But being able to run three just means that you have enormous threat coverage. Their primary option against stitched is "just don't get hit by the model that can be placed anywhere on the table." This doesn't seem like 'counterplay' to me. It seems like generically bypassing an enormous amount of defensive tech in one ability. It also can have a warping effect on the format ("just don't choose those masters into Neverborn" becomes pretty format warping if the list of masters is large enough). So I've changed my mind from my initial view, because... I had not played Stitched against the above crews (or where I had, I had not realised that the master was so vulnerable). But in theory I can see why they'd be so devastating. The experience of others in this thread who have played those games say they find Stitched overpowered (even if they are the ones playing stitched)
  6. I was playing Pandora, so avoiding my models with stun was not an option (18" threat range on stunned, or 13 with a focus to get past concealing). I had to work for it, but I was able to force it through with some work. In fact, I had to work so hard for it I ended up losing. With stitched, the work is much less. The double GYL doesn't always go off, but you can almost always force it if you want to. Two severes plus a card to cheat a failed duel in hand is enough to give you better than a 50% chance to deal 10 damage in an activation. That's pretty good odds. And of course, that ignores the more common case where you can give yourself over a 90% chance to deal 3-5. And it isn't that this guarantees insta-kills. It is that is so dangerous and consistent enough that the enemy has to play around it extensively, and the stitched crew doesn't even necessarily need to do anything. Its mere existence warps how opponents have to play. Which again is acceptable to a degree, but I now think stitched go too far. I'll try to post a master by master analysis later. It really opened my eyes to go read all the masters and to realise how many of them stitched can just nuke.
  7. I wrote something while you were writing above that clarifies more, but worth noting Shenlong can't do everything a stitched can with one attack. If Shenlong attacks my Molly, I'm going to try using "Take the Hit" on summoned Ashigaru to absorb the hits. There is counterplay where I can shift which attacks I am vulnerable to (instead then being vulnerable to a less concerning blast, and even then only after Take the Hit, not before). Countering back and forth is part of the game. Ignoring (almost) everything in one ability is not good counterplay IMO. There should be some limits. EDIT: Here is what interesting counterplay looks like to me: My opponent was running Captain Zipp (df trigger to blast off 6"). I throw a stun using willpower to shut down the df trigger, then beat him to death using melee attacks that he can't escape because he is stunned. Counterplay should be dynamic and back-and-forth. Not "avoid these parts of the table or insta-die"
  8. Initially I was anti-nerf on the grounds that the minion and crew are not over performing on average. I was coming from a meta where stitched don't overperform (people don't run crews full of those types of defensive tech). The arguments above have persuaded me a nerf is necessary. Once I realised my meta is not representative, I saw there are two major problems: A 6 stone, summonable minion shouldn't have a 3/4/5 damage track without a sizable downside. Despite the possible damage, stitched 3/4/5 damage track comes with huge upsides. Certain crews are just going to be ripped apart by stitched. Certain models being strong against other crews is part of what makes Malifaux such a great game. But the above examples make me think that stitched are too extreme (especially since the keyword already can ignore several defensive techs). Most of the time they are acceptable in power level, but some crews they're just so ridiculous. As a Molly player, I'd feel like there is more counterplay to playing against Shenlong. Which is reknown as one of the worst matchups in the game. I think removing the 3/4/5 damage track could ruin Stitched in minion Dreamer crews. That isn't what I play, but I feel that'd be too big a hit for those crews. Giving Gamble Your Life some actual downsides (can fail horribly), but very powerful, semi-controllable outcomes (fiendish gambles, 3/4/5 damage track) to me makes a lot of sense. But having a minion that hits as hard as the best beaters in the game with upside on top of that... It does seem too powerful in some niche situations, and those niche situations need to be addressed.
  9. Wyrd's track record so far seems pretty good to me. Gaining grounds zero was extremely good errata IMO.
  10. I updated about the doppelganger, I missed that one (although easily solved as mentioned above). Others having bonuses to straight flip sounds reasonable to me - a six stone model shouldn't be able to outflip every model in the game. But just to make sure I understand this correctly... Your position is abilities like Colette's should not function against stitched? So if you can get a stitched near Colette and two severes in hand, having a greater than 50% chance to kill her from full health in one activation is acceptable to you? (Gamble, cheat if necessary for it to go off, flip from outside the game, cheat severe damage. Repeat hoping for luck, but better than a 50% chance). Even Archie couldn't do that. EDIT: a 3/4/5 damage track on a six cost model (even on an attack) would be overpowered if not for the ability for it to damage itself. So I don't think a 3/4/5 damage track having to face some minus flips and limitations is that bad, especially since the damage on itself is extremely rare, so as it stands it is very close to a 3/4/5 damage track with upside overall.
  11. Sorry, I'm missing how are those models better at gambling? They'd be flipping from the top of their deck (potentially with a bonus), while the Stitched can still guarantee a severe card using lucid dreams. The odds will be in his favour to win. And how would mimic become a strong gambler? The stat would be irrelevant. Things like The Old Ways would potentially be better, but then you can just see what card is on the top of the opponent's discard pile. EDIT: Oh, right, since the stat of the Mimic would replace the stat of the duel. Well, again, you can just put that in the italics (the stat for this attack can never be anything other than 0). And it surgically addresses the main thing potentially broken about stitched (that they ignore all defensive tech that is based on attacking). I started in the camp that they don't need a nerf, but remembering all the niche scenarios where models are simply hard-countered by Stitched feels very bizarre. Stitched can easily kill Dreamer for instance, because it bypasses all THREE of his defensive abilities in one ability. Even Shenlong struggles to counter that many things with one ability. EDIT: For most situations, Stitched are balanced (as they're not ignoring tons of defensive tech, they're just hitting things). In those instances, this change has the smallest effect (as this change primarily affects things that are based on attack actions). In the instances where it is most powerful (ignoring defensive tech), that is precisely where Stitched probably need to be toned down. This is a game of counterpicks, but Stitched are absurd for the level for which they counter some models. For the overall power level of the crew, it won't change much (the crew's average power is not dependent on its ability to bypass those defensive techs specifically). The crew might become a bit less favoured in some matchups, but overall it seems like it'd have the least disruptive effect.
  12. Our series has wrapped up! Great participation over all! Malifaux was one of our biggest wargames at the club this past month. People are already purchasing more models to fill out their crews, and I think everyone now has a solid enough grasp of the game that they can easily organise their own games and plan out future crews. Mission accomplished If I was to change anything, I'd change the 'Take Prisoner' on the Reckoning scenario. Having it + breakthrough is too much of a nonbo, and I'd rather have something a bit more achievable in that Take Prisoner slot. Probably deliver a message.
  13. Here's an introduction series I put together for new players, you may find it useful: Essentially it goes: 2 minions doing claim jump + simplified plant explosives. 1 henchman + 2-3 minions doing corrupted idols + assassinate or search the ruins 1 master + totem + henchmen + 1-3 minions doing reckoning + a few possible schemes (take prisoner, breakthrough, harness the leyline from memory) A slightly larger crew doing turf war + 5 of the schemes from the previous games (so you don't get overwhelmed by options). It has worked well for our local group! And it is designed for everyone to be starting with only one core box.
  14. Elaborating on the 'just make it an attack action', it could look something like this: They might have to invent a special icon for opposed duels that aren't based off a stat, such as using a * or X, but it seems worth it for balancing the model and bringing it in line with how the rules for every other model work, while keeping the ability as close to the original flavour intention as possible (we're both going to just flip a card, no cheating, pure luck... Of course, I'm going to do tricky things that aren't 'cheating'.) It also weakens the ability as it means that the damage flip will suffer minus flips, which is another important balancing factor. It imposes serene countenance, incorporeal, manipulative, etc... All of which are great. It also means that models can use focused for it, or distract the stitched to weaken it. Much more counterplay, and becomes a more interesting ability rather than less IMO.
  15. @Math Mathonwy I edited as you were typing there, so also added in a comment about changing it to be an attack would be good. But other than that, philosophical differences I think!
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