Reva wrecking face?

[Daysleeper]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Relying on Canines to find corpses is extremely risky.

Also summoning it first turn is vasty superior because of the slow from summoning.

I still think it's a lot of work for a RN.

[Pinocchio]

59 minutes ago, Daysleeper said:

Also summoning it first turn is vasty superior because of the slow from summoning.

I still think it's a lot of work for a RN.

Not as much work as most summoners I find, plus you're 10SS ahead at the end of turn 1 (give or take any extra models summoned/killed)

[OracleToronto]

I will first admit that this is a crazy long thread which I missed some in the middle - so if someone brought this up already i apologize and please ignore. 

One thing i Have noticed while playing as Reva that may lead to the "over powered" feel is the ease in which she can generate corpse markers. it only takes 4 wounds for her Shield Bearers to drop markers and it is my common tactic to burn a stone on anything turn one to fire them way up the field (with the granted fast) to do exactly that. Plus Reva's Corpse Candles drop markers to and are summoned at the incredible low price of a card. 

 

When I first started playing her I was using the Corpse Candles as shepards of sorts to keep moving around corpse markers ... but after a few games I realized that the amount of markers being dropped made that unnecessary for damage and reach options (still useful of course if you are using Reva or the Carrion Emissary to turn them to scheme markers later. 

Reva can summon and kill a Corpse Candle every turn - guaranteeing a corpse marker with an added effect usually - all for the cost of one card. (it is limited by having to be at the start of activation and within 8) but I think that is one of the most effective corpse marker generating mechanics in Ressers. 

 

All this being said I love Reva - her play style, models, and theme got me into this faction. It saddens me that she may be considered by so many to be a NPE. 

 

Anyways just something I have noticed that I didn't see in this thread when skimming through the discussion. 

[Palooka]

Typically I've found that it's the combined triple threat of Reva, the Carrion Emissary with My Little Helper and Yin with My Little Helper that tends to make her so obnoxious. The walls block important parts of the table and make mindless zombies for her to hit out of - and Yin gives you the ability to just mark a model for death almost for sure once a turn. Reva attacks the marked model (who's now at a negative to Wp duels) and makes mince meat of it because of Decaying Aura.

Just my 2c.

[Ludvig]

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a strong master with very unique mechanics cause people grief. Auatringers and the pigapult are some of the most lamented models in the game because they have long threat ranges that ignore conventional defences like blocking LoS.

Reva has a very similar feel to face except she doesn't ping your 4ss scheme runner for a couple of points of damage, she can often completely delete one of your models with strong defenses that you thought would tank half the opposing list for acouple of turns and she does it more or less while you're hanging around in your deployment zone. People don't like to loose 10+ ss models in a single activation, especialky from 20" away and put of LoS. It's why Leveticus was also getting an arguably worse rep than he deserved.

A dedicated player will find ways to counter anything but if you play mostly casual and run into her without having some serious counter strategies you're going to have a bad time.

[Astrella]

But how is she like power level wise though; is it as doom and gloom overpowered as people thought when she had just come out?

[spooky_squirrel]

27 minutes ago, Astrella said:

But how is she like power level wise though; is it as doom and gloom overpowered as people thought when she had just come out?

She's definitely strong. One of the things that makes one of the more competitive (newer to Ressers) players in my area excited about her is that she answers some of the hard questions asked by horde summoners who can choke the board with disposable elements and prevent Resser beaters from getting into position.

A lot of the 'doom and gloom' was  the initial expression of shock. People weren't used to facing the ranged threat of Rasputina or Sonnia in a Ressers crew. Nellie's control, Parker's scheming, and Sandeep are all (in various degrees) getting similar responses as they enter into the meta.

[Boomstick]

I think once people get a bit of time to work on her we'll be seeing more Sue being merc'd in for his corpse removal, maybe some Thunderous Smash getting taken more on Mei (though Vent Steam will help as well). Remove Reva's forward corpses and she's at least slowed down on the ranged murderousness, maybe to the point of having to move up to where she can be counter charged. That's my read from a few games so far. She's definiyely tough, but play to your schemes, wait for the right moment, and she can be dealt with.

[Moondog]

I haven't played with or against her yet, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think she's stronger than say Lilith using tangle shadows to pull models into Nekima effectively killing what you want without risking Nekima. Nor do I see her as being as difficult to face as Pandora. What about a 3ss Will 'o Wisp copying 2AP actions and generating Voodoo Dolls and Teddies? I think the newer models when they are released tend to be a tad stronger than some of the older models. Maybe the answer is not cuddling new models but a free 0ss upgrade buff to old models that start to slip behind the power curve, this also avoids errata cards which tends to be annoying. Also if a model is too hard why not introduce after testing other faction counter models that can be used verses it if necessary. I don't see the big deal with Reva but maybe that's just because I have yet to play with or against her!

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Moondog said:

I haven't played with or against her yet, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think she's stronger than say Lilith using tangle shadows to pull models into Nekima effectively killing what you want without risking Nekima. Nor do I see her as being as difficult to face as Pandora. What about a 3ss Will 'o Wisp copying 2AP actions and generating Voodoo Dolls and Teddies? I think the newer models when they are released tend to be a tad stronger than some of the older models. Maybe the answer is not cuddling new models but a free 0ss upgrade buff to old models that start to slip behind the power curve, this also avoids errata cards which tends to be annoying. Also if a model is too hard why not introduce after testing other faction counter models that can be used verses it if necessary. I don't see the big deal with Reva but maybe that's just because I have yet to play with or against her!

I would vastly prefer creating new models in line with the current power curve over 0ss upgrades. Even the errata option that Lucius and Tara got is better in my eyes. Having a "buff" that restricts your upgrade use is really annoying in most cases. Not that there aren't any strong masters from waves 1 and 2.

Lilith has lower range on tangle and needs to beat the opposing wp with ca 5, there are a lot of models who laugh that off. She also needs to place Nekima where the model was so Nekima is hardly safe from retaliation. Not to mention that Nekima doesn't ignore reduction and ss use like Reva does. Some crews are squishy and the raw damage is better but a lot of crews have armor +1 or even armor +2 on every model in the crew so ignoring that along with soulstones is not something to sniff at.

[Sharp_GT]

So, a few points to make here.

First, this model has been in the meta for  bout eight months now, and people are still using the excuse "well just wait and see" or "people will figure out how to beat her soon". Lets face it, if anyone had found an easy solution to the 'reva problem' we'd know by now.

Second, competitive players do have her figured out. That's why you're seeing the reva lists with yin, MLH, and those shenanigans. Related to this is the fact that every faction has some master or strategy that is obnoxiously powerful. Reva is on par with these other 'o.p.' masters. I think the bigger problem is that we clearly have tier 1 and tier 2 masters that are no where near the same power level in competitive settings.

Finally, I've yet to actually play against reva, but in my experience [I've done plenty of playtesting for this game] the only part of her that really looks out of line is the low cost to summon a corpse candle and her litany of the fallen upgrade. The corpse candle being able to pop itself for a 0 action, but only costing reva a card to summon makes them crazy easy to use for setting up attacks and turn into free corpse markers. And the upgrade gives her attacks a trigger, that she has the crow built in for, that ignores far too many defenses.

The bigger offender here is my little helper, which really is an insane buff for only 2ss. I think that one might need the hammer more than reva does.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As soon as oath keeper and imbued energies are also hammered. I'd rather have access to those than my little helper.

[Sharp_GT]

3 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

As soon as oath keeper and imbued energies are also hammered. I'd rather have access to those than my little helper.

right? Also bonkers powerful for the ss cost. How many times have you gotten a howard to the face with that upgrade!?!

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

So, a few points to make here.

First, this model has been in the meta for  bout eight months now, and people are still using the excuse "well just wait and see" or "people will figure out how to beat her soon". Lets face it, if anyone had found an easy solution to the 'reva problem' we'd know by now.

Second, competitive players do have her figured out. That's why you're seeing the reva lists with yin, MLH, and those shenanigans. Related to this is the fact that every faction has some master or strategy that is obnoxiously powerful. Reva is on par with these other 'o.p.' masters. I think the bigger problem is that we clearly have tier 1 and tier 2 masters that are no where near the same power level in competitive settings.

Finally, I've yet to actually play against reva, but in my experience [I've done plenty of playtesting for this game] the only part of her that really looks out of line is the low cost to summon a corpse candle and her litany of the fallen upgrade. The corpse candle being able to pop itself for a 0 action, but only costing reva a card to summon makes them crazy easy to use for setting up attacks and turn into free corpse markers. And the upgrade gives her attacks a trigger, that she has the crow built in for, that ignores far too many defenses.

The bigger offender here is my little helper, which really is an insane buff for only 2ss. I think that one might need the hammer more than reva does.

The rules have been out for 8 months, but the actual model isn't released yet. That still means that not that many people will have faced Reva. Some people Proxy, and some people bought pre-release versions, but I think its reasonable to still say wait and see. Its much easier to think up a powerful list than think up answers to the list, I would expect if I played someone of comparable stand to me with a new master of equal power to my master, the old master would win the first game or two, (As the player learnt how the new mastwer actually worked) and then the new master would win the next 3 or 4 games (as they have worked out how to play, and I would have to work out how to counter) and then it would go back to equal results. 

 

That said I don't think there is an "easy" solution to Reva, nor should there be. I've only had limited exposure to her, (played against her once, watched her played a couple more times) and whilst I don't think she is a push over, I don't feel she is unbeatable, or even the best Resser master. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or even the best master out of book 4.

[Freman]

51 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Or even the best master out of book 4.

It's either her or Sandeep, yes.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Nellie, Sandeep, and Asami are all stronger than Reva.

[Trample]

18 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Nellie, Sandeep, and Asami are all stronger than Reva.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think these three are all really good although I haven't played with or against Asami yet, so I could be wrong there.

I think if you were going to make the statement that Reva is the most damaging (beaststick) master in wave 4 you would be making a claim that would be fairly easy to defend. She can put out a ton of damage. You could probably also make the claim (and defend it) that Reva has the potential to be the most powerful master in wave 4 in the hands of a beginner since she has a pretty shallow learning curve. I do agree that there are some better options out there though. 

[Four_N_Six]

I enjoy my time with Reva, but I've had more success with Zipp in most of the games I've played.

[Sharp_GT]

7 hours ago, Adran said:

The rules have been out for 8 months, but the actual model isn't released yet. That still means that not that many people will have faced Reva. Some people Proxy, and some people bought pre-release versions, but I think its reasonable to still say wait and see.

I don't know, 8 months in the hands of the competitive players who are looking to break the format is a long time. That's how we have the reva+carrion effigy+yin lists. But those same players have not figured out the great equalizer for reva yet and, honestly, I don't think such a thing exists anymore; the wyrd design this time around seems to be focused on each faction getting something powerful to do [often involving scheme markers] that is at a very different vector than the other masters in the game. There's no easy rock-paper-scizors power dynamic guaranteed. Like you said, there's no easy solution, and there shouldn't be!

Of course if anyone is looking at those competitive players results, they are still finding plenty of ways to beat Reva, it just often involves using the other tier 1 masters and crews doing their thing. If you compare reva spamming mindless zombies everywhere and getting to attack the whole board to dreamer or ramos flooding the board with free models, it all kind of evens out. Or if levi gets reva-ed and then just pops back out and kills 2-3 zombies and shield bearers. Reva looks 'o.p.' compared to masters like seamus, lynch, or any gremlin, yes, but the top level masters still go toe to toe no problem.

So TLDR: people should not keep waiting for some magical foil to Reva's typical list. It does not, likely will not, and really should not exist. She seems super over powered, especially in lists designed to abuse her, but really isn't when compared to other tier 1 masters. The bigger problem is that we have clear differences in power level between masters, leaving a lot of crews that people like to play in the dust.

[Clement]

22 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

I don't know, 8 months in the hands of the competitive players who are looking to break the format is a long time. That's how we have the reva+carrion effigy+yin lists. But those same players have not figured out the great equalizer for reva yet and, honestly, I don't think such a thing exists anymore; the wyrd design this time around seems to be focused on each faction getting something powerful to do [often involving scheme markers] that is at a very different vector than the other masters in the game. There's no easy rock-paper-scizors power dynamic guaranteed. Like you said, there's no easy solution, and there shouldn't be!

Of course if anyone is looking at those competitive players results, they are still finding plenty of ways to beat Reva, it just often involves using the other tier 1 masters and crews doing their thing. If you compare reva spamming mindless zombies everywhere and getting to attack the whole board to dreamer or ramos flooding the board with free models, it all kind of evens out. Or if levi gets reva-ed and then just pops back out and kills 2-3 zombies and shield bearers. Reva looks 'o.p.' compared to masters like seamus, lynch, or any gremlin, yes, but the top level masters still go toe to toe no problem.

So TLDR: people should not keep waiting for some magical foil to Reva's typical list. It does not, likely will not, and really should not exist. She seems super over powered, especially in lists designed to abuse her, but really isn't when compared to other tier 1 masters. The bigger problem is that we have clear differences in power level between masters, leaving a lot of crews that people like to play in the dust.

Not to say I think Reva actually IS a problem (I've run her a lot and been sort of disappointed with her) but I would point out that one of the last big meta deforming beasts, RatJoy, "existed" in the wild for many months until the actual crew boxes for hamlin and the brotherhood got out there and we had a major tournament or 2.  If there *was* going to be actual general outrage over her, I'd expect it to rear up in the near future.

[mo11usq]

Will reserve judgment until I have actually played against Reva a few times.

Have to be honest though, I'm slightly less enthusiastic for this match up than I usually would be.

I find games against long range, high damage masters to be consistently the least fun.
Either you totally shut them down and (probably) win, or get annihilated and (almost certainly) lose. Not ALL games go this way, but this is the common format, at least in my experience.

Either way, the fun doesn't end up being shared very equally, which I'd bet reduces the enjoyment even person on the winning side of the equation for most of us.

It must be hugely frustrating for e.g. Sonnia players (who aren't using austringers for some reason) to be endlessly engaged every turn and not get to nuke all the models.
I know intimately how frustrating it can be to have to sprint through that fire/bullet storm, only to find the shooter is as good or better in combat than my guys, or that if they break free for even one activation it can spell doom for half my crew.

The most fun games seem to be close ones, where each player feels they got the opportunity to use their crew's abilities relevantly in the struggle.

The hardest arse-pounding I ever took was against Nellie (tabled turn 3, 2 dmg dealt in total to the enemy... by my own blood. It was bad my friends!), she is crazy strong in the right hands, but it wasn't a 'negative play experience', it was a great laugh. I find I'd actually rather have a game against her than any given ranged damage master, simply for the type of game I can expect to get.

Maybe this is my problem for enjoying close combat oriented crews, and a game between two pewpew crews (yawn-fest) is less all or nothing.

[Adran]

On 28/04/2017 at 7:15 PM, Sharp_GT said:

I don't know, 8 months in the hands of the competitive players who are looking to break the format is a long time. That's how we have the reva+carrion effigy+yin lists. But those same players have not figured out the great equalizer for reva yet and, honestly, I don't think such a thing exists anymore; the wyrd design this time around seems to be focused on each faction getting something powerful to do [often involving scheme markers] that is at a very different vector than the other masters in the game. There's no easy rock-paper-scizors power dynamic guaranteed. Like you said, there's no easy solution, and there shouldn't be!

Of course if anyone is looking at those competitive players results, they are still finding plenty of ways to beat Reva, it just often involves using the other tier 1 masters and crews doing their thing. If you compare reva spamming mindless zombies everywhere and getting to attack the whole board to dreamer or ramos flooding the board with free models, it all kind of evens out. Or if levi gets reva-ed and then just pops back out and kills 2-3 zombies and shield bearers. Reva looks 'o.p.' compared to masters like seamus, lynch, or any gremlin, yes, but the top level masters still go toe to toe no problem.

So TLDR: people should not keep waiting for some magical foil to Reva's typical list. It does not, likely will not, and really should not exist. She seems super over powered, especially in lists designed to abuse her, but really isn't when compared to other tier 1 masters. The bigger problem is that we have clear differences in power level between masters, leaving a lot of crews that people like to play in the dust.

I stand by the statement that it is much easier to theory out a powerful list than it is to theory out a counter to the list. So just because some people have see the obvious in Yin making negatives on WP and the emissary making extra corpses each turn, to make Reva powerful, until people have faced the list several times they are not going to be sure how to "counter". I've not yet heard of huge Reva results where she beat everything she faced, so I don't think she is a huge problem.  (i'm assuming that is the combo you talked of, I don't know, I've never seen a Reva list with that combo but it looks fairly obvious)

So TlDR

Almost every Malifaux model has a trick that seems amazing if you don't know what it is, and so don't stop it. Master level tricks can sometimes wipe out a crew if you don't know them. Reva is no different. Do you remember how hard the Viks were when you first faced them?  Reva is like that. You can't entirely stop her attack ability, but with some good play you can minimise its effect. Teh minimising is probably harder that Spread out so the Viks can't whirlwind, but she is still very rarely seen so it is hard to say good counters, 

[Math Mathonwy]

On 4/28/2017 at 9:15 PM, Sharp_GT said:

Reva looks 'o.p.' compared to masters like seamus, lynch, or any gremlin, yes, but the top level masters still go toe to toe no problem.

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I have no idea what that gif is trying to tell me but I greatly approve the use of gifs