Suggestions for Future Errata

[daniello_s]

35 minutes ago, Mason said:

I use Desperate Mercenaries. They do pretty alright for their cost.

Scheme runners that are immune to charges can be pretty handy, and they do alright damage. People get really hung up on their attack stats of 4, but I think they're still solid. They show up alongside my Viks fairly often.

Really? Not a Winged Plagues who are faster and have flight?

[Mason]

8 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Really? Not a Winged Plagues who are faster and have flight?

Yeah.

I've found Disguised to be worth the trade-off.

Plus, Desperate Mercenaries have a higher threat range, with Charge 7 + 2" melee range compared to the Plague's Charge 6 and 1" melee range. Also, unlike the Winged Plague or Void Wretches, the Mercenary has a pistol that lets him shoot at things while he's camping a scheme marker... and wild firing gives him a lot of (albeit poor) shots with a min-2 gun.

[Tris]

On 10.1.2017 at 8:23 PM, Clement said:

On topic:

Remember Desperate Mercenaries?  Has anyone found *any* use for the literal cover-boy of M2E?  I mean first edition they were great even if their only job was to troupe forward then get whanged in the head by Mortimer for corpses and healing.  This edition they just got...  bad.

They were a little bit broken in first edition - every list was better with a desperate mercenary, and outcasts were even better because they could take more^^

[daniello_s]

2 hours ago, Mason said:

Yeah.

I've found Disguised to be worth the trade-off.

Plus, Desperate Mercenaries have a higher threat range, with Charge 7 + 2" melee range compared to the Plague's Charge 6 and 1" melee range. Also, unlike the Winged Plague or Void Wretches, the Mercenary has a pistol that lets him shoot at things while he's camping a scheme marker... and wild firing gives him a lot of (albeit poor) shots with a min-2 gun.

I see. I prefer my scheme runner to be more mobile and avoid a fight by utilizing this mobility rather than pick any kind of fight.

[thecapopriest]

Wild Boar: Change their 0 action Root Around to be able to target Scheme Marker, Corpse Marker, or Scrap Marker within 4", push into base contact and then discard the marker.

This would open them up to being a really good utility piece, as they would have From The Shadows and be able to mess with enemy summoners like Ramos and a lot of Ressurectionists Masters as well as give them a much easier mobility boost in any game. 

[OctaBit]

I would love to see brewmaster brought over to TT a little more. He just doesn't really seem to fit. I think the biggest thing would just to see him gain infiltration (tri-chi) natively. That and his totem gaining dual faction. It just boggles my mind that every other dual faction TT master has infiltrate but not him, and if you get his box set (which is how you would go about getting him) you have to pay 2 points to use anything out of it unless you're playing him in gremlins.

Tara got infiltrate (void), which is a very nice change for her. I would love to see brewmaster get a similar treatment. 

[Seadhna]

On 12/01/2017 at 5:33 PM, daniello_s said:

Really? Not a Winged Plagues who are faster and have flight?

I'd rather use Desperate Mercs, Void Wretches or the Effigy in the 4-point slot, but mostly because I really hate the Plague's models, they look profoundly crappy to me. I also like to stay moderately in-theme, so I'd only take them with hamelin. 

 

Still, with I pay better they look really good

[Fetid Strumpet]

One that will probably not happen but as long as we are wishing, could ALL totems in the game be looked at? I find it very hard to understand how masters that are exceptionally powerful like Nellie or the Dreamer also get insanely powerful totems that no one at all experienced with the game argues against their being amazing for their master for the cost, while middle to lower tier masters like Misaki, Lady J, Kaeris, Seamus, and Ma have totems that are either universally ignored, or are only arguably good. While perfect balance is not achievable making it so a model your customer base is forced to buy as part of the cost of playing a master, and can only be taken with that master is always a must consider shouldn't be outside the realm of achievable. I'm not arguing for perfect balance or even relative balance against each other, just that if you sit down to play Kaeris, you should always at least seriously consider bringing her Eternal Flame, If you play Misaki you should aways consider bringing Shang and so on for mechanical reasons. Every totem should be as useful to their master as the daydreams and printing press are to the Dreamer and Nellie, and while it would be a big undertaking it is one thing that is very doable I feel, and would help improve the game experience for both new and veteran players alike.

Remove the restriction to require a specific suit and a stone for a death strike on attacks from Chompy, Misaki, and Seamus and let them be able to just stone for the strike. Asami has insane mobility, better defensive kit with a def 7 (I tend to find stats > all) and a more powerful of the death strike built into her attack. She is already a top tier master in power before one even considers that is part of her card. I understand at the time being conservative with the power of them when the changeover was happening, but if it's balanced on a master as already powerful as Asami it should be balanced for all three of them. And while I'm a little leery of increasing the power level of the Dreamer, honestly something that helps smooth out the balance between summoning Dreamer and Chompy Dreamer should be explored, even if it's just added to the chompy upgrade. Then reword Risky ventures to give some other benefit so it isn't a wasted ability on Misaki.

Please tweak From the Shadows. At this point in the game I don't personally know if the restriction on interacts is necessary any more, given all the other crazy scheme marker shenanigans that exist. This could certainly be too much so I'm not hard core supporting this, but please at least word it so if a from the shadows model deploys in it's own deployment zone it can make interact actions on the first turn. That is pretty much universally the impression that is gotten by everyone that has ever read that ability anyway, and if you are cleaning up things like the black blood shaman's abilities this one could certainly use some cleaning up as well.

Clean up the Vantage Point and LoS rules. They are the most clunky and non intuitive portion of the game.

The grow mechanic could use some looking at. I'm not certain if it is possible to balance it so that it is a useful but not auto include way to play, but it is so thematic, and so many new players try it and then get disappointed that it doesn't work well. I sort of feel if it's going to be in the game and so thematically linked to the Nephilim it should be a viable way to play them, or it shouldn't be part of the game. Being a sort of trap isn't a great state of affairs I feel.

On a personal note for something as long as we are wishing, which might not be strictly necessary, but could Madam Sybelle finally get the Belle trait (even if it means rewording Cathouse Madam so she doesn't go to walk 6)? Justin even mentioned in an open forum that he didn't believe it was left off her intentionally, though that could be the case. Could she please be given something that makes her better with Seamus than she is with Molly, she is HIS particular henchman after all. Even if it's an upgrade that can only be taken if seamus is the master that just removes the randomization on Shriek, and or letting personal attention last until she dies, takes the action again, or is removed from the game? Yin's debuff is more powerful and she is harder to remove from the table.

 

 

[Pyrflamme]

I have more experience with 10T than anything else, so comments on them below. Rathnard already touched on the Thunder Archers and HRM, though I have to imagine Wyrd already has the HRM under consideration since they were one of our two potential upgrade-buffed models from Nythera (the other being Low River Monks, the upgrade for which is very nice indeed). I approve of the idea of decreasing 10T Archer cost, 5 sounds decent.

Overall, I think 10T is in a pretty solid position right now, but I think Ototo and Oiran could use a little something to make them more attractive options relative to other 10T models. Ototo, I think, would benefit from a Challenge-like ability akin to Titania's Knights. It would let him drag in specific models to go toe-to-toe with, without necessarily opening any cans of worms that would occur with simply increasing his movement or having him get in even faster. Oiran would also be attractive picks if they finally got both suits built into their lure, with a rebalancing of the Ca value if necessary.

[MeatAndFauxtatoes]

On 11/01/2017 at 3:23 AM, Clement said:

Really?  If any kind of killing is in the scheme poll with Kirai I have to fight to *not* take Bloody Shears.  Accomplice on a summoner is great.  Accomplice when combined with Swirl Spirits and Adversary is bonkers!  The charge and the melee attack I assume are just there for thematic reasons.

 

On topic:

Remember Desperate Mercenaries?  Has anyone found *any* use for the literal cover-boy of M2E?  I mean first edition they were great even if their only job was to troupe forward then get whanged in the head by Mortimer for corpses and healing.  This edition they just got...  bad.

I just find the triggers Unforgiven give as well as the +1 damage to sundering extremly hard to pass up, they greatly outshine shears in my opinion.

[Da Git]

On 13/01/2017 at 6:51 AM, OctaBit said:

I would love to see brewmaster brought over to TT a little more. He just doesn't really seem to fit. I think the biggest thing would just to see him gain infiltration (tri-chi) natively. That and his totem gaining dual faction. It just boggles my mind that every other dual faction TT master has infiltrate but not him, and if you get his box set (which is how you would go about getting him) you have to pay 2 points to use anything out of it unless you're playing him in gremlins.

Tara got infiltrate (void), which is a very nice change for her. I would love to see brewmaster get a similar treatment. 

I was going to say exactly this!

[Pyrflamme]

I think it says a lot about Brewmaster's infiltration issues that one of the first responses most people had to the Terracotta Warriors was "Thank goodness we can swap Brewie's upgrade now!" We had the same response to Lucius' upgrade, but at least he could take his totem in both crews, and the errata made the Df trigger actually practical.

[OctaBit]

One other thing that would be nice. Letting players use the old collette avatar as a proxy for regular Collette. Since her avatar was three 30mm models that are her doing different things why not let them be stand-ins. You can't use them as an emissary unless you stick all of them on a 50mm (which wouldn't be a bad idea mind you). Seems like a small fix that would be pretty nice.

[solkan]

40 minutes ago, OctaBit said:

One other thing that would be nice. Letting players use the old collette avatar as a proxy for regular Collette. Since her avatar was three 30mm models that are her doing different things why not let them be stand-ins. You can't use them as an emissary unless you stick all of them on a 50mm (which wouldn't be a bad idea mind you). Seems like a small fix that would be pretty nice.

Nah, it's a matter of consistency.  Colette's avatar is 50mm in the Shifting Loyalties campaign.  If someone wants to build a 50mm display stand for their three seperate 30mm bases, or rebase those models onto one base, that would fit the current rules.  Remember that Colette isn't the only multiple model avatar...

On the other hand, it wouldn't take much of a conversion to use any of the Avatar Colette parts as regular Colette.  But that would still fall under the conversion guidelines.

[Bengt]

Hidden Agenda should have: "If Misaki is the Crew's Leader this Upgrade may be attached regardless of declared Faction."

[yool1981]

On 13/01/2017 at 10:07 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

Clean up the Vantage Point and LoS rules. They are the most clunky and non intuitive portion of the game.

The grow mechanic could use some looking at. I'm not certain if it is possible to balance it so that it is a useful but not auto include way to play, but it is so thematic, and so many new players try it and then get disappointed that it doesn't work well. I sort of feel if it's going to be in the game and so thematically linked to the Nephilim it should be a viable way to play them, or it shouldn't be part of the game. Being a sort of trap isn't a great state of affairs I feel.

+1

The grow mechanic is not AP efficient. It is just too difficult to pull off for a doubtful result. I would also add that I find the Nephilim theme a little bit weaker than the other ones in NB.

The tots are great but the young and the mature lack purpose.

The young is a medium weight beater that is not terribly fast and cannot take a blow. They are in the same price range as the Stitched, the Illuminated, the Silurids, Johan, the Doppelganger, the Waldgeist, all models that have a very definite purpose and are just very good at what they do. I think the Young Nephilim should be faster to be a reliable sheme runner hunter (none of the other models in this range do this kind of job). He would then be able to act as a bird of prey and, late game plant shemes or beat some pieces that would be already sandpapered by other models. The growth from tot to young would also make more sense as you would not lose so much in terms of scheme running ability.

The mature is just too redundant with Nekima. Nekima hunts scheme runners and applies heavy damage on single targets like no one else. But she is not very durable. The mature may be tweaked to either be more durable (Df 5 would help), and/or better handle the mass (instead of flurry, he could apply a Ml attack to each mini in his Ml Range for example, although his damage track may need to be balanced accordingly).

Each Nephilim would then have a role imho.

[Sybaris]

5 hours ago, yool1981 said:

+1

The grow mechanic is not AP efficient. It is just too difficult to pull off for a doubtful result. I would also add that I find the Nephilim theme a little bit weaker than the other ones in NB.

The tots are great but the young and the mature lack purpose.

The young is a medium weight beater that is not terribly fast and cannot take a blow. They are in the same price range as the Stitched, the Illuminated, the Silurids, Johan, the Doppelganger, the Waldgeist, all models that have a very definite purpose and are just very good at what they do. I think the Young Nephilim should be faster to be a reliable sheme runner hunter (none of the other models in this range do this kind of job). He would then be able to act as a bird of prey and, late game plant shemes or beat some pieces that would be already sandpapered by other models. The growth from tot to young would also make more sense as you would not lose so much in terms of scheme running ability.

The mature is just too redundant with Nekima. Nekima hunts scheme runners and applies heavy damage on single targets like no one else. But she is not very durable. The mature may be tweaked to either be more durable (Df 5 would help), and/or better handle the mass (instead of flurry, he could apply a Ml attack to each mini in his Ml Range for example, although his damage track may need to be balanced accordingly).

Each Nephilim would then have a role imho.

I've always seen the growth capacity of Nephilim to be a fortunate accessory rather than a true strategy. Growing a Tot here and there is possible, but not always a great trade if you've got schemes to run as you said;  growing a young to a mature is...well, hypothetical at best.

I think that deep down, the real theme of Lilith is push-shenanigans, and if a crew is built around this, then Youngs might have a clearer purpose, since they have auto-push triggers built in. Same with the Mature, he can push stuff out of position automatically with careful positionning. This can create synergy with all the pounce/mandrake stuff in the faction. Lastly, there is something the Mature Nephilim does better than Nekima and it's hunting very highly armored targets, since he can get the upgrade to tear through it. He's also terrifying...so he does force wp-duels outside his activation, unlike Nekima.

Speaking of inefficiency, Nekima's Birthright trigger, while fluffy, adds extremely little to the game (and takes alot of text uselessly). IIRC, it was made inefficient on purpose...but my point is that it's a flawed mindset to design a rule in the first place. There's most definitely ways to make things balanced and interesting...

[yool1981]

I still tried the Young Nephilim a few times with different masters and I was quite disappointed. I know a lot of players are also not reaching to the young when they build their crews.

As to the Mature, Graves can also take retribution's eye and, although his damage output is lower than the Mature's, he can still beat fairly hard and is a lot cheaper. We also have access to Johan in order to beat heavily armoured targets. I may be wrong but I think that a lot of players do not reach for the Mature Nephilim when they build their crews.

This is all a pity as the minis are splendid (and quite expensive). This is one of the only purchase I regret in Neverborn.

[Nikodemus]

You guys are painting a real gloomy picture. If I ever get into Neverborn (not likely, but still) Nephilim box would be one of the first I grab as they do look good. Are they really that bad or is this another case of good models competing with great models?

[Math Mathonwy]

On 13.1.2017 at 11:07 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

The grow mechanic could use some looking at. I'm not certain if it is possible to balance it so that it is a useful but not auto include way to play, but it is so thematic, and so many new players try it and then get disappointed that it doesn't work well. I sort of feel if it's going to be in the game and so thematically linked to the Nephilim it should be a viable way to play them, or it shouldn't be part of the game. Being a sort of trap isn't a great state of affairs I feel.

Some people have gotten it to work rather nicely, though:

 

[yool1981]

15 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

You guys are painting a real gloomy picture. If I ever get into Neverborn (not likely, but still) Nephilim box would be one of the first I grab as they do look good. Are they really that bad or is this another case of good models competing with great models?

I cannot recommend you to buy this boxset as this was among the first I purchased when I started the faction and I stopped using it after a few tries.

However, as Math Mathonwy says, some people seem to make this work so I advise you to proxy the stuff and see if you like it before you buy it. The box is quite expensive (and the list discussed in the post linked by Math requires 2 boxes + one additional box of terror tots which is a big investment if you end up not liking it).

I find that Malifaux is so meta-dependant and so variable as soon as the scheme pool and terrain change that you may find a way to make stuff considered sub-par by some work.

[Griffin839]

I'd like an errata to gaining grounds 2017 that limits the appearance of named characters to 1 round per tournament. War machine ended up going this route for the better and I fee malifaux has grown to the point where it also needs this rule. There are so many good and viable options but every list you see the same models because they are the "best".  Limiting the appearance of Howard, joss, nekima, papa loco, etc would make tournaments better experiences to play. 

[cryion]

11 minutes ago, Griffin839 said:

I'd like an errata to gaining grounds 2017 that limits the appearance of named characters to 1 round per tournament. War machine ended up going this route for the better and I fee malifaux has grown to the point where it also needs this rule. There are so many good and viable options but every list you see the same models because they are the "best".  Limiting the appearance of Howard, joss, nekima, papa loco, etc would make tournaments better experiences to play. 

where is the dislike button when you need one?

[Cadaverousbirth]

16 minutes ago, Griffin839 said:

I'd like an errata to gaining grounds 2017 that limits the appearance of named characters to 1 round per tournament. War machine ended up going this route for the better and I fee malifaux has grown to the point where it also needs this rule. There are so many good and viable options but every list you see the same models because they are the "best".  Limiting the appearance of Howard, joss, nekima, papa loco, etc would make tournaments better experiences to play. 

A TO could provide this rule in a tournament but I can not see it being part of an official document. It's far too limiting, even for models that aren't "the best" like Santiago Ortega. Malifaux is about its characters and while some are very good yes, the best are very expensive and you can play around them with some experience. This seems like a knee-jerk reaction to a bad game against a big beater.

I would not want to pay to play in a tournament if this was a rule. All this would do is reward players that have/buy everything (like me...) versus the new player that only has one box and a couple extra models. Bad. Bad. Bad.

[Squirrelich]

Interesting, make the Rare characteristic apply to the tourney instead of just each round. I don't think I would want to do it unless I owned 3/4 of a Faction, or even more than once, but the novelty of the idea intrigues me.