Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Strangedane said:

Just came back to malifaux after a long hiatus, wanted to start the spider lady simply due to the art work - but it sounds like it won't be even a little bit fun for my opponent to play against? We both play just for fun, but seems like I should steer clear of this crew, or what? 

Are there any upcoming erratas planned, which might adjust the keyword that we know about?

It is generally assumed that the keyword won't be errata-ed in the next update, because it has only been out for a few weeks.

I'm in a similar boat. It is the crew I want to buy next, but definitely don't want to take it to my local club. It'd really be mainly for tournament play for me, and I don't really want to buy a crew just for tournaments.

[ShinChan]

24 minutes ago, Strangedane said:

Just came back to malifaux after a long hiatus, wanted to start the spider lady simply due to the art work - but it sounds like it won't be even a little bit fun for my opponent to play against? We both play just for fun, but seems like I should steer clear of this crew, or what? 

Are there any upcoming erratas planned, which might adjust the keyword that we know about?

Most of this discussion is focused from a competitive perspective. I'll have to agree that a well played Cadmus vs a less experienced player (or a player that is trying something that doesn't know by heart) can also feel like an uphill battle, but for casual games it shouldn't be a big problem.

Wyrd usually releases a new errata almost every year, so there is the possibility that Cadmus will get adjusted. However, since it's not even for sale yet, I wouldn't count on that happening anytime soon.

[Paddywhack]

Give it a try first and see. Proxy for a bit and make sure it isn't going to be  fun before deciding. Some groups might be fine. Also depends on who your regular opponent is going to play.

 

[Strangedane]

Will proxy a game with the crew, maybe even later today. The list is pure keyword, no emissary. 

[dannydb]

Would cadmus be balanced if husks were once per turn (so no multiple husks regardless of how you do it) and cadmus second activation just had to be your last activation rather than last activation of turn (so opponent can still use pass tokens ect to go last) 

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Would cadmus be balanced if husks were once per turn (so no multiple husks regardless of how you do it) and cadmus second activation just had to be your last activation rather than last activation of turn (so opponent can still use pass tokens ect to go last) 

I don't think the cryptologist is the problem in the list. They might pull their weight, but on the whole I don't think they really are producing beyond their value (not least because the limit of 3 husks means that they spend several turns not producing a second husk from what I have seen). That said I've had very little experience with them. 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

Would cadmus be balanced if husks were once per turn (so no multiple husks regardless of how you do it) and cadmus second activation just had to be your last activation rather than last activation of turn (so opponent can still use pass tokens ect to go last) 

I kinda feel that Cadmus is currently so imbalanced that no single change will make them fair other than something utterly crazy like removing We Are Legion. But that's based solely on watching those games and reading the commentary (and the cards) so might be wrong. But to me it feels that Wyrd really have their work cut out for them in balancing Cadmus.

I also really really hope that we won't be saddled with them in their current form for a full year...

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

I enjoy playing with and against Cadmus, they are fun and challenging, like so many keywords in Malifaux. Make your own opinion and don't rely on a handful of vocal people to tell you how something is, because it's ultimately just their opinion 

Not fun for friendly or against less experienced players is something that can be used to describe lots of stuff in the game when played well 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I enjoy playing with and against Cadmus, they are fun and challenging, like so many keywords in Malifaux. Make your own opinion and don't rely on a handful of vocal people to tell you how something is, because it's ultimately just their opinion 

Not fun for friendly or against less experienced players is something that can be used to describe lots of stuff in the game when played well 

maybe u want to accept challenge to play against my cadmus? it is so funny

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I kinda feel that Cadmus is currently so imbalanced that no single change will make them fair other than something utterly crazy like removing We Are Legion. But that's based solely on watching those games and reading the commentary (and the cards) so might be wrong. But to me it feels that Wyrd really have their work cut out for them in balancing Cadmus.

I also really really hope that we won't be saddled with them in their current form for a full year...

In the Cadmus games I have played I haven't found it horrendously imbalanced. Obviously people have other opinions, but I think if there is an unbalanced list out there, it is different to the keyword as a whole being broken.

I think the combination of Meredith, the Emissary, and the ability to clump up safely yet still be able to score is when it is at its best because of the healing and the ability to protect the critical models. 

 

 

[Cats Laughing]

7 hours ago, Strangedane said:

Will proxy a game with the crew, maybe even later today. The list is pure keyword, no emissary. 

TBH, reading a bunch of the comments above, taking out the Emissary will be a big move towards bringing the keyword down.  While Cadmus does have other ways to hand out shielding (and create the related We Are Legion + Shielding issue), the Emissary is the most efficient way to do so.  This will bring down some of the shenanigans and help make the crew less of an issue for your local group.

The Emissary also brings other defensive & healing tech that pushes the Cadmus bubble to the edge (over the edge) so I think you'll find the experience less of an issue if you don't take the Emissary.

 

Not saying removing the Emissary suddenly makes Cadmus weak, but you can read in this thread many instances where someone proposes a counter to the Cadmus list being used and how often some sort of Emissary tech is used to stop said counter.

[katadder]

17 hours ago, Strangedane said:

Just came back to malifaux after a long hiatus, wanted to start the spider lady simply due to the art work - but it sounds like it won't be even a little bit fun for my opponent to play against? We both play just for fun, but seems like I should steer clear of this crew, or what? 

Are there any upcoming erratas planned, which might adjust the keyword that we know about?

Use the crew in keyword and don't take flush with cash, should be fine then.

Competitively it's certainlya tough crew but not as bad as the naysayers would have you think, they just like a bit of salt 😉

[SEV]

49 minutes ago, katadder said:

Use the crew in keyword and don't take flush with cash, should be fine then.

Competitively it's certainlya tough crew but not as bad as the naysayers would have you think, they just like a bit of salt 😉

I didn't play with or against this crew yet... but all opinion are not equal. The naysayers like you said have pretty strong arguments and @Plaag begin to have a good sample of recorded game to back them up.

Just saying it's "salt" and "the crew is not so bad" is not on the same level... Maybe you are right though, but it would be nice to have in depth argumentative to back this up or just more nuance... Like "I'm still not sure the crew is as bad as it seems and I think we need more gameplay before casting our final judgment as a community"...

[katadder]

Thing is its the standard new stuff. You can approach alot of explorers the way you would the other 7 factions as they have lots of new abilities.

This is always going to make them look powerful until people get used to it.

[Strangedane]

We ended up ES vs ES, he took evs. We called it due to time midways round 2 (a lot of new rules plus not played in a long time), both agreeing I would win without a sweat.

The ability to always get more eyes, turning them into husks seemed good! 

 

BTW I only used keyword models.

[Maogrim]

It's weird that a keyword can get so massively broken and almost unbeatable by staying mostly in keyword and adding one single versatile model, albeit one that's costed 10 soulstones. 

Did no one test the combination while playtesting? It seems strange that something so strong would somehow slip under the eyes of both Wyrd's developers and unpaid playtesters. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maogrim said:

It's weird that a keyword can get so massively broken and almost unbeatable by staying mostly in keyword and adding one single versatile model, albeit one that's costed 10 soulstones. 

Did no one test the combination while playtesting? It seems strange that something so strong would somehow slip under the eyes of both Wyrd's developers and unpaid playtesters. 

most of playtesters plays only for fun, they are not competitive players

[katadder]

11 minutes ago, Plaag said:

most of playtesters plays only for fun, they are not competitive players

Plenty of competitive players in the playtests.

Although competitive or not the end point of the game is fun after all, that's why we do it.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

Plenty of competitive players in the playtests.

Although competitive or not the end point of the game is fun after all, that's why we do it.

end point-that game is like chess, thats why we need balance - players with one lvl of playing both need to have chances to win

thats why we need to play competitive

its not fun if u have no chances to win against some models/keywords

[trikk]

It might be me but I rarely have fun if I have to struggle to tie a game just due to model difference. I'm not counting luck or skill.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

It might be me but I rarely have fun if I have to struggle to tie a game just due to model difference. I'm not counting luck or skill.

See I have the most fun when I have to play a close game.

I assume you mean you are generally a better player than the person you face. Because struggling to tie a game sounds pretty close to balance to me. 

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, Adran said:

See I have the most fun when I have to play a close game.

I assume you mean you are generally a better player than the person you face. Because struggling to tie a game sounds pretty close to balance to me. 

I specifically said "due to models" and not "skill or luck"

 

If we both struggle and the game is close, then it's fun. If he has to make mistakes to lose and I can't mistakes to tie, then it's not good IMHO.

[SEV]

I think most people will agree (even hardcore casual player) that heavily skew or imbalanced games are less fun for people of even skills (it can be nice to have a mechanism to intentionally skew the game to close the skill gap between 2 players, but it's an other topic).

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, trikk said:

I specifically said "due to models" and not "skill or luck"

 

If we both struggle and the game is close, then it's fun. If he has to make mistakes to lose and I can't mistakes to tie, then it's not good IMHO.

But that sounds like player skill.  And both those players lose if they make a mistake based on what you said. 

If the expected out come based on the models is a tie or a narrow loss, then that is closely balanced. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I also really really hope that we won't be saddled with them in their current form for a full year...

This is my worry, and one of the big reasons I've come around.

At this stage, it seems like Cadmus probably needs a nerf. But what do we do if there is no nerf in the next errata, and then Cadmus dominates for another year? If the crew actually is as powerful as it appears, tournament play is going to become "declare ES if you want to be competitive."

That said, I don't think we have fully explored it yet. Some issues to consider for whether a nerf is justified:

• At high level competitive play (vassal series), Cadmus seems to be dominating I think?
  • BUT this is played with funky rulesets - single masters, and 15 stone limits. So this isn't 'real' Malifaux. Not sure how much we can rely on the data.
• World class players have tried to take down Plaag's Cadmus and failed.
  • BUT they have a pretty specific meta/philosophy.
  • For example, every Plaag opponent I've seen so far has played a very aggressive game against Cadmus. Perhaps a slow-roll strategy has more potential? Or other strategies? Who knows.
• Detailed theorycrafting is coming up short.
  • There are tons of conversations with people coming up with ideas, and Cadmus having the tools to shut down those ideas very easily.
• Groupthink and self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing.
  • If people believe a crew is overpowered, they probably won't find a way to beat that crew and resign themselves to defeat.

So what we have here is a situation of uncertainty. Early signs are that Cadmus is overpowered and needs a nerf, but it isn't an ironclad case. However, there are basically two options:

• Nerf Cadmus in the upcoming errata
• Leave Cadmus un-nerfed in the upcoming errata.

The first option I think we all understand there is a lot of reluctance for. But consider the second option as well - what if Cadmus is as strong as people think and won't be nerfed for a year or more?

So what should they do? My opinion is give Cadmus a small nerf now (likely targeted at Archivist or Emissary) and see how it shakes out with a small nerf + people learning to fight the crew. Then a year from now, if Cadmus is still dominating, they can do a bigger nerf.