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ShinChan

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ShinChan last won the day on May 11

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  1. I appreciate the feedback, but let's keep it to the models/keywords that you know well, that are underperforming and you feel like need a buff because you've played them many times (or agaisnt them). Bultulgin definitely field in that category, how could I have forgotten them? Maybe because it's been a loooong time since I've put them on a table (or a Vassal map). Aeslin is mediocre in the current GG1. She was amazing for some schemes in GG0. Autumn Knights are okay, you're not going to field 3 (neither 2) but they aren't bad. Same for Waldgeist, they're not bad. But in general, most of the Fae models could use some sort of trigger in their Germinate ability. Myranda can become a Cerberus when Marcus plays as arcanist I played against Pandora at least 3 times in 2020 and it never felt she was underperforming. She put me into a lot of troubles I always won by a small margin (last 2 times that I remember, once vs Reva and another one vs Wong), purely out of luck or misplay of my opponent.
  2. Shieldbearers can handle up to 6 burning without taking any damage and they can heal themselves. They also have a better damage output than Lampads and provide more support, so I don't see any scenario where I would spend 2 extra soulstones for a Lampad. Vincent is too resource hungry to work. Reva's damage is not that good overall (3/4/5) and Vincent is worse (2/3/4). He can shoot 3 times, yes, but by discarding a card, and Revenant really struggles with cards. Also Vincent doesn't ignore cover or concealment and with a range of 10" he would be in charge range of the 90% of the models in this game, which would engage him from more than 0" away and force him to waste one action moving around to hit the model that charged him. The benefits of cremation are very limited, I wouldn't mind expending an action from a 4-6ss model on doing it, but one of Vincent's doesn't seem right.
  3. So, these are my toughs collected over the past 4 months, during which I've been playing a lot in Vassal (up to 4 games/week once 😅). With the (hopefully soon) release or Explorer's Society, I would like to mention some keyword and models that are quite "on the bottom of the table" regarding their performance. I will only talk about those models and keywords that I played and played against multiple times, after sharing some toughs with my opponents after the games and after watching several games in Vassal. Feel free to comment and add any other model that you believe are not good enough, reason it, and I'll edit this post and I'll add them. I don't have experience with all the keywords and factions (specially Ten Thunders and half of the Arcanist models). Also, I would like to add that the game designers did an outstanding job creating unique mechanics in M3E and balancing things out. In general I believe this is a great edition, better than M2E (even if I loved all the pop-cult references in 2 edition and the funny and fluff-wise amazing names for weapons, attacks, conditions, etc.). I just think it could use some polish, making those keywords that are in disadvantage in most of their matches become better, improving models that never or almost never see the table or who's synergies doesn't work. Wizz-Bang I needs some small keyword redesign. The Injured in Wong doesn't make much sense and it comes from a time in the beta where that injured would have affected the simple duels of the shockwaves. The keyword needs to hurt themselves (while being quite squishy) in order to get full potential, to the point that requires specific set up in deployment and a turn 1 that is almost always the same. The issue is that this big amount of set up only allows the crew to keep working properly until turn 3-4 tops, when almost everyone would be dead, too far from Wong or too injured to take damage. This "fuel" on the form on glowy tokens runs out pretty quickly and then the whole crew starts underperforming. Also, Wong being the only model that can use glowy on enemy models feels quite bad. Wong: The Injured in Wong doesn't make much sense and it comes from a time in the beta where that injured would have affected the simple duels of the shockwaves. Right now, Wong is more a support master than an offensive master, so having Injured as a trigger is not good if it's going to affect friendly models. Taxidermist: You're paying at least 1 extra SS for the Stuffed Piglet. It's a 6-7ss models with an extra wound. Offensively he's decent, but he's very squishy for the price. He would need to squeal around with the defensive trigger, most of the time by using a Glowy token, for which he would have needed to suffer damage. This would reduce considerably his offensive efficiency, so they will be a minion that cost 8ss and has a damage track of 2/3/4. Some people would say that with the upgrade "Inferiority Complex" they become really good, and I completely disagree. They become really good for an 8ss model, but not for a 10ss model (upgrade is still 2ss), just compare them to the Emissary or any other 10ss model in the game. Burt Jebsen: I wanna love him, after all, Big Trouble in Little China is one of my favorite movies, but again, another Wizz-Bang model that is not durable. There isn't any scenario where I would prefer to bring Gracie for the same cost or get two extra soulstones from somewhere and bring Alphonse. More interesting triggers in his gun or in his shockwave attack would make him work. I would like him to be more resilient (after all Jack Burton proved himself as quite Hard to Kill 😜 ), but maybe that would make him a bit over the top, so at least improve his offensive toolkit a bit. I think Burt Jebsen is one of the best candidates to get use of Glowy in enemy models. Lightning Bugs: From everything I've said so far, they're probably the ones in the better spot, but there is no reason to bring one when for 1ss more we have the Bokors, that they do everything better. These guys should have +2 stat in the heal, so at least they could fight for a spot vs a Bokor. Olivia She's not that bad by herself, but for Wong's utility and damage output, she's very lackluster. The Spit Hogs are better at getting people together (it's a place, not a push, which it's already way better) and it's not only once per turn (which I understand is to prevent being obeyed by the Bokors). At least this lady should have Manipulative (or any sort of protective ability) to prevent her from dying to a light breeze before being able to take advantage of the front of her card or even Set Charge. Pigapult: Big Hat Banjonistas & Old Cranky: The design on the action's face of the card is that poor that it could be empty and nothing would change in the 90% of the games. Rebel Yell requires a and the range is not that great, so it never happened in any of my games. Maybe because I would always bring BBB, since when I play Big Hat I really feel like needing that extra card from Arcane Reservoir and BBB is great at removing conditions. Pluck the Strings is very situational, the range is low and the impact is quite low too. Old Cranky's Obey gets outshined by the Gremlin Criers and if you have the high in hand, probably you'll want to be using it for a Ricochet in somebody else or for a Squeal in Som'er. Frantic Search is terrible ability. First of all, in a best case scenario you'll be using it 4 times/game. There are no corpses withing 2" of Old Cranky in turn 1, and probably neither in turn 2. There are also way less corpse markers in the game that in M2E, so less chances to use the ability. If you get lucky, that would mean 2ss/game for overexposing a support model that cost 5ss and has 4Wd (yes, HtK, but it's not going to change much), since he would be where somebody else died. Tricksy Sparks: I heard he's not bad in Foundry, but in Bayou his only purpose is to put explosives in somebody else, since he's too squishy after being demoted to Enforcer to survive enough to take advantage of Hostile Work Environment or Scrapyard Mines. Maybe he could gain Full Pack as a small buff to his survivality. Tri-Chi Most of the the Tri-Chi models can't make use of Poison and the keyword lacks card draw to hit all the different TNs that they have. What about fixing bot issues making "A Toast" work like Wong's The Glow? Maybe on a trigger that it's only once per turn, to prevent becoming abusive. For simplicity, adding the list of models that are going to get poison and can't do anything with it (5/11 models): Apprentice Wesley Popcorn Turner Whiskey Golem Tanuki Moon Shinobi Forgotten Archie: A nerf was necessary, this nerf was disproportionate: Lost the on the leap: Totally deserved Lost ruthless: Well, he has Wp 4, how is he going to hit people if he can't gain focus. -1Mv but Rush: This is not actually manageable Lost the in the Hurl Corpse: Was it that necessary? Mournful memories: This ability shouldn't require more than a 3. Seriously, a TN that requires a 7 just to get a to the attack or a suit, only to the next action, not even during his whole activation? If at least it were a and the suit, I can see how it could require a 5-6, but not a 7. Revenant Lampads: It has been discussed a lot, they have the worst offensive stats of the 8ss minions in the whole game. Their Demise ability removes the most important resource on Reva's crews, the pyre markers. Mourners: They had a very small niche in GG0, but they're definitely not worth their cost, neither in Revenant or in Redchapel. They're quite tanky for their cost, I'll give them that, but it also makes me wonder how these models cost the same as a Shieldbearer and have +2Wd and +1Df (Disguised instead of Armor and HtW instead of HtK) Vincent: He's too resource hungry for a model that has a quite low damage track (2/3/4), he's tanky but he doesn't like to be engage due to his range 0" in mele. If he can shoot someone, that model is within charge range to go engage Vincent and make him almost useless a single turn. It would be better if he had gunfighter and lost completely the melee attack, adding a trigger in mask to his shooting action to give Staggered. December The worst keyword in Arcanist and easily one of the top5 worst. First of all, it's nice that they have a thematic, fluff/lore-wise ability like Grim Feast, but again, this is not M2E, there are way less corpses and having a very situational free action that occupies 1 line of text, leaves you some space to put something else in the cards. Rasputina: She is one of the most resource hungry masters I've ever seen, specially taking into account that the resource generation in keyword is almost non-existent. She really likes to have focus in order to get at least a blast, and she has to discard a card to attack through ice pillars if you want to declare triggers. The Damage track is also quite unimpressive (2/3/4). Harsh Winter is an "ok" ability if she's the leader, but the opponent will discard low cards to prevent his big beaters and key models to gain slow, just remove the Ice Pillars that are causing trouble with low cost models that have nothing better to do or even bringing someone with Demolitionist (which will completely avoid the Slow) or Blow it to Hell. Wendigo: Comes for free, can create Ice Pillars, can be used as an Ice Pillar for a couple of models and when it dies, creates another Ice Pillar. Also it's not insignificant, which can help sometimes. Snow Storm: A really decent model all rounded. Good damage output, with the ideal conditions can get a soulstone back and keeps everybody kind-of-safe from ranged attacks while helping to move the rest of the crew. Blessed of December: A fast and expensive scheme runner that can get some serious damage. I see why it makes the cut for so many Marcus lists. I can see her(?) running with a Soulstone Cache to ensure those Pounces for extra mobility and get a to the attack. Probably the best model in keyword, and it performs better with another master, so nothing else to add. Ice Golem: Is this the worst of the Golems? I'm not saying he's bad, but he needs some set up to make him shine, and it's quite easy to see it coming and prevent it. I don't know much about the Metal Golem, but the Fire one is definitely better. Ice Gamin: I don't see me hiring one of this in any situation. I would prefer to have 4 extra SS, put and upgrade on someone or bring a Soulstone Miner, which in turn 2 it would already be at the same cost. They should be summonable somehow. Hoarcat: Another scheme runner, in theory quite resilient, with almost no damage (Tundra Hunter is wasted ink on this card) and that doesn't bring any utility at all. I could consider it as a pick Ice Dancer: Scheme runner with a good movement trick, but that feels is going to die to light shooting. Ice Path is good, but requires careful planning. Two that require corpses. Silent One: The're a reliable source of Ice Pillars outside of Rasputina, so there are a must. I don't thing they're good, it's more that the Keyword lacks of better options. Healing is nice, and also the ability to use SS, although I don't see it using a soulstone on them for almost any reason. December Acolyte: They look decent on paper, but complicate to fit into a list, unless you're facing a crew with lots of armor/shielded. Having Tools for the Job is nice, but I wish they had more interesting triggers. They could get Concealment of Stealth while being close to an Ice Pillar, which would help with their Df/Wp5 Part of the problem is maybe that some of the models (Ice Dancers, Hoarcat and Ice Gamin) are bad due to try to make them more balance for the other masters that can field them (Colette, Marcus, Sandeep). Marshall A keyword that gets multiple benefits from having corpses in play, but that for what its two main beaters (Lady Justice and The Judge) don't have the chance to drop corpse markers. Fae/Savage Bultulgin: They're too squishy to be decnet scheme runners, even at the cost of 5ss. Df 5 and Wp 4 with no defensive ability to protect them but an ability to that makes him damage in order to try to stay alive To this list, I would like to mention some models that come from this other thread and I think that they're quite bad: Molemen Desperate Mercenary Dogs (Canine Remains Guild Hounds) I actually think that for the cost and being summonable, nothing else can be asked from them. Talos: His attack action against Wp should be stat 6. Maybe the lack of interactions within keyword is due to the keyword having a very small pool of models and it will be fixed in the future.
  4. He said at the end of turn 3. So perfectly possible to score 5 points between turn 4 and 5, I've done it myself many times. You can have your opinion, and we can disagree with it. For start, it will require to increase the Mv of all the miniatures, which implies a modification of all the cards in game. For someone like me that bought all faction packs except 2, that's a huge investment of money. And that is only the top of the iceberg. I played many games in M2E (which was way more difficult to play because it wasn't as streamlined as it is now) in 2.5h or less, going to turn 4-5 without many issues. More than once up to turn 6 with Tara (even once up to the 7th).
  5. Even if I don't see it as a bad idea, it will require a complete change in some crews, like a lot, so I don't see it happening. The game was designed for a 5 turn length and it would be extremely complicate to change it now. It's not even 1 year since the release. Many people is starting or re-starting to play Malifaux and don't know what changed. I think it's a matter of time. I don't see a problem with a game taking 3-5h unless you're playing an event with a strict time limit, for which in that case you just need to practice and become faster playing. Let's remember that most of the people plays for fun, not to go to important tournaments. As an example, in my meta, an important part of people people prefer to play a chill relaxed tournament with 2 games (3.5h each) while having some time to chat, discuss stuff, eat pizza, etc... Than a 3 full rounds tournament for which they have to wake up earlier, keep playing until later and do it all in a rush to end the games.
  6. Well Marcus in Arcanists have access to Sabertooth Cerberus, who with Soulstone Cache and a couple of upgrades, they become ultramobile-killing machines almost impossible to kill. Does it require set up? For sure, but like every support master. In addition he's crew is one of the fastest in the game, with 2 Cerberus and the Blessed of December. But this to talk about Rasputina, not Marcus
  7. I haven't played against all the Arcanists masters, but if Marcus in arcanists is one of the worse, the other ones are just too good. My experience is almost none, but I would say that Snow Storm is a good pick. She shines more against shooting and shockwave crews, but brings a lot of mobility, is one of the two models with Df6, and hits decently well. The Golem suffers against so many things (movement tricks, obeys, pushes, lures) to be a good target for claim jump. Also ping damage hurts him and he struggles against tetrifying. No SS miner? They got hit a bit too hard, but they still are quite useful.
  8. I've played my first game with Rasputina in Vassal, and the crew looks very lackluster, specially if you play full in keyword as I like to play (maybe adding some versatiles). My impressions model by model (underlined those that I actually played): Rasputina: She is one of the most resource hungry masters I've ever seen, specially taking into account that the resource generation in keyword is almost nonexistent. She really likes to have focus in order to get at least a blast, and she has to discard a card to attack through ice pillars if you want to declare triggers. The Damage track is also quite unimpressive (2/3/4). Harsh Winter is an "ok" ability if she's the leader, but the opponent will discard low cards to prevent his big beaters and key models to gain slow, just remove the Ice Pillars that are causing trouble with low cost models that have nothing better to do or even bringing someone with Demolitionist (which will completely avoid the Slow) or Blow it to Hell. Wendigo: Comes for free, can create Ice Pillars, can be used as an Ice Pillar for a couple of models and when it dies, creates another Ice Pillar. Also it's not insignificant, which can help sometimes. Snow Storm: A really good model all rounded. Good damage output, with the ideal conditions can get a soulstone back and keeps everybody kind-of-safe from ranged attacks while helping to move the rest of the crew. Blessed of December: A fast and expensive scheme runner that can get some serious damage. I see why it makes the cut for so many Marcus lists. I can see her(?) running with a Soulstone Cache to ensure those Pounces for extra mobility and get a to the attack. Ice Golem: Is this the worst of the Golems? I'm not saying he's bad, but he needs some set up to make him shine, and it's quite easy to see it coming and prevent it. I don't know much about the Metal Golem, but the fire one is definitely better. Ice Gamin: I don't see me hiring one of this in any situation. I would prefer to have 4 extra SS, put and upgrade on someone or bring a Soulstone Miner, which in turn 2 it would already be at the same cost. Hoarcat: Another scheme runner, in theory quite resilient, with almost no damage (Tundra Hunter is wasted ink on this card) and that doesn't bring any utility at all. I could consider it as a pick Ice Dancer: Scheme runner with a good movement trick, but that feels is going to die to light shooting. Ice Path is good, but requires careful planning. Two that require corpses. Silent One: The're a reliable source of Ice Pillars outside of Rasputina, so there are a must. I don't thing they're that good, but it's more that the Keyword lacks of better options. Healing is nice, and also the ability to use SS, although I don't see it using a soulstone on them for almost any reason. December Acolyte: They look decent on paper, but complicate to fit into a list, unless you're facing a crew with lots of armor/shielded. Having Tools for the Job is nice, but I wish they had more interesting triggers. General impressions: The Beasts models feel like they're not good enough (Hoarcat) or that they could be better with Marcus, so their potential has been tuned down in order to prevent abuses with Marcus' upgrades. Most of the models in keyword lack a useful action. Feels nice to have a thematic ability regarding the lore, but if that means that the models are going to underperform, not sure if it's worth it. In the game I played, my MVPs were actually the 2 versatile models I brought: Mechanical Rider and SS Miner. The Mechanical Rider scored me 3 points (2 Research Mission + 1 Corrupted Leylines) while moving Rasputina around in turns 1&2. The SS Miner scored me 1 from Hidden Martyrs and almost the second one, if it weren't for a lucky 13 that my opponent flipped to get critical strike and put me just 1 Wd below half of its health. Don't misunderstanding, it was a fun game, I won by 1 point at the end, but they seem pretty under the curve, with very bad matchups. Also, am I the only one that feels like Raputina (or somebody else in her crew) should summon Ice Gamins? Maybe a trigger in the action or something like that.
  9. 02/05/2020 - Brewmaster vs Zoraida Deployment: Corner deployment Strategy: Recover Evidence Schemes: Sabotage Breakthrough Catch and Release Claim Jump Spread Them Out Lists: Brewmaster + 12 cups of coffee + Apprentice Wesley Fingers Leong Whiskey Golem + Infeirority Complex Tanuki Moon Shinobi + Two Gremlins in a Ghillie Suit Popcorn Turner 6ss Zoraida Spawn Mother The First Mate McTavish Gatreaux Bokor Gatreaux Bokor Silurid 6ss Result: Brewmaster: 7 Recover Evidence 3 Claim Jump 2 Spread Them Out 2 Zoraida: 2 Recover Evidence 0 Spread Them Out 2 ??? Summary: Turn 1, since we were playing corner was mostly positioning. Bokors hit themselves to gain fast and glowy, while healing back and drawing some cards. The First Mate went to the top part of the map, the Spawn Mother and the Silurid went to the bottom and McTavish hold the mid, concentrating twice thanks to Zoraida's obey, who also obeyed the Spawn Mother to move further away and gain fast. I charged Fingers with poison (like 12) while charging the Golem with another 3, just to ask him an Small Favour with Fingers, that was concentrating. So the Golem was at focus 5 in turn 1 (move + swagger, concentrate, Tanuki with Foul Mouthed Motivation + Sober Up and A Small Favour from Fingers). Turn 2, MacTavish took 2-3 shots at my people, but I took advantage that he was the only model between my crew and Zoraida + Bokors, I send the Golem and Brewie, followed by Fingers. Popcorn Turner was alone at the top, trying to survive against The First Mate, but apparently he had better things to do, like scoring Spread them Out, with the help of the Silurid and the Spawn Mother. Turn 3, with McTavish out of the equation thanks to the Golem, Zoraida obeyed the Golem to charge into Fingers, but he survived. Brewie went all-in to Zoraida, a Gupps and the 2 Bokors, to start putting some pressure in my opponents. Fingers made me draw 4 cards. In the previous turn I misplayed "A Toast" and I removed poison from my models at 6 and used "A Toast" like Wong's bonus action, but this time I played it right (sorry to my opponent!). Fingers scored me Claim Jump. The First Mate put some serious damage on Popcorn, who dropped a scheme marker and ran away to blow some fire in Zoraida and the Bokors. My Moon Shinobi was trying to stop the Spawn mother in the bottom left corner, who was still dropping some eggs and summoning more Gupps. My support models reached the centerline. Turn 4, the Whiskey Golem had to run away at 2 wounds, but crossed a forest to drop a scheme marker. I move Fingers a bit backwards to try to help the Moon Shinobi to fight the Gupps and try to deny my opponent's Spread Them Out. One of the Gupps was almost in my deployment zone. Brewie kept punishing Zoraida, lured The First Mate and killed the second Bokor that was still alive. Popcorn turner survived (burning a couple of stones) another activation of the First Mate and ran away to try to score me Spread Them Out. Turn 5, my opponent couldn't do much to prevent me to score Spread Them Out. I had to choose between waiting with Fingers and denying him the second point of Spread Them Out or score mine for Claim Jump. Impressions: Brewie is so funny to play, he's a pain in the ass against crews that do not have condition removal, so that was a mistake from my opponent, but it was also his first time playing against him. I was superscared of Zoraida obeying my Golem, but he was more focused on obeying his own models for extra actions. I felt like Popcorn is a bit squishy for 8ss and I had to burn through more of my stones to keep him alive (3 for him, 1 for Brewie to get a trigger and 2 for drawing and discarding cards at the beginning of the turn), so maybe I'll try the Spawn Mother for 1ss more. She has Stealth, same movement and can summon more scheme runners. She also has a built-in trigger for poison in her attack, with a High damage of 6! I also felt that the crew requires an insane amount of set up in turn 1, a bunch of models are going to gain some indirect poison that they can't use for anything: Tanuki Apprentice Wesley Popcorn Turner Whiskey Golem Moon Shinobi I wish there were some sort of interaction with the poison, maybe on Fingers "A toast" could include friendly models within range but have a maximum number of card draw each turn (3?). Popcorn Turner could also use a "Too Drunk to Care" to keep him alive longer without having to burn so many stones. Also, the turn 1-2 setup requires a lot of moderate cards to work, and some suits too, specially crows, which with the very limited card draw from Fingers is not going to be enough to hit those TNs (and definitely those triggers) in a half-reliable way. The crew seems to have multiple weaknesses: No healing auras/abilities: Since most of the models are quite squishy, they really rely on healing to stay alive. Condition removal: Unless the enemy has poison, the damage output of the crew (with the exception of the Golem) is extremely low. Brewmaster becomes a squishy master with a very reduced damage output. Stunned: Stunned really hurts this crew, because limits a lot the possibility of healing and they truly leave on triggers. Stun Brewmaster, and he's damage output goes to a ridiculous 2/3/4. Shooting: Tri-Chi is one of those crews that could easily get shoot out of the board I won't say they're a very competitive crew, since it's very easy for most of the factions to bring some counters to them, but it's funny to play.
  10. Armor does not reduce damage to 0. Only apecific abilities and effects that say so can reduce damage to 0, being shielded and using soulstones to prevent damage the most common ones.
  11. They will be using Chain Gang in turns 1-2 to get to places, when Field of Steel would be less necessary. So they're mobility isn't bad. The healing part, we will just have to wait to see more, but if it's there, I assume there is going to be some sort of healing, probably to compensate all of those Price of Progress.
  12. You can remove the Slow by concentrating as a free action with Shouting Orders from Dashel and getting fast instead from Queeg for 1 damage, you can also remove the Slow with Dashel's Foul-Mouthged Motivation. For what I've seen, there is a bubble with Queeg, Dashel, The dispatcher and another low cost guard (+ Steward) and anything else that is hitting faces or scoring. That bubble it's not like is doing anything else, since Dashel can shoot with Stat 7 and Queeg with Stat 6. Also, they're in total 18 stones (+4 from a Guard Patrol), which leaves another 32 stones to hire 2 executioners and throw them turn 1-2 into the enemy crew, so they won't bother that much your "resource-generation-bubble". Still, another 14ss left.
  13. @Nathan Caroland Regarding the Canadian situation... Maybe is too much to ask, but would be nice if you could tell us if we should keep our money in our pockets for a bit longer, hoping to support our LGS in the near future, of if we should start trying to find Wyrd product somewhere else. At least, to the henchmen, so we could talk directly to the local stores and keep our playerbase interested. The current global pandemic doesn't help, but having no news for the past 4 months (almost) is really killing the game.
  14. I never said it was impossible, I said that it's not easy to kill, like it was claimed. Every guard that dies is a SS back too, so the patrol guards fulfill their role. Dashel is very strong right now, I'm not saying OP, but top for sure. Last (online) tournament in Spain, the winner won every game (4 games) using only Dashel. Regarding the VS part, 100% agree.
  15. Von Schtook is really good, in the top 3 Resurrectionist masters with Molly and Kirai. But his summoning is not reliable . You're not going to summon in turn 1 unless your opponent doesn't have any idea of what you're doing. Best case scenario, you'll summon 3 models/game, against an opponent that doesn't bring special tech to stop you. Regarding the card draw mechanic, it's good, but also not very reliable. I had games where I drew 3 cards/turn easily and others where I draw 1-2 max. How is a model with Serene countenance and Protected(Guard) easy to kill? Also, a model that likes to stay behind his beaters and surrounded by models like Dashel and Queeg?
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