When are you going to nerf Dashel

[NoahScape]

Dashel is ridiculous and needs a nerf. I don't understand how this continues to not be a topic of discussion. So, I'm sure its been discussed but I want to bring the discussion back out. 

The card draw off the scheme marker thing is over tuned when the dispatcher counts as a scheme marker. 

Executioners are over tuned. 

Gage is over tuned. 

 Discuss. 

 

[Commoner1]

Dashel needs a nerf

Colette needs a nerf

Nexus needs a nerf

English Ivan needs a nerf

Maxine needs a nerf

Jedza needs a nerf

Dreamer needs a nerf

Leveticus needs a nerf

Jack Daw needs a nerf

Prof. von Schtook needs a nerf

Yan Lo needs a nerf

Shenlong needs a nerf

McCabe needs a nerf

Asami needs a nerf

So'mer needs a nerf

 

Did I forget anyone from the "needs a nerf"-list?

I don't see why Dashel is in an especially dire need of a nerf compared to all the others on this list. Or maybe, just maybe Malifaux is a not overly balanced game and most of it's fun comes from overcoming your crew's weaknesses and beating up supposedly OP crews.

[Adran]

Question - did you play dashel before the last errata?

 I think there were more cries then for guards to be improved than there are now for him to be nerfed.

The dispatcher received a big boost, but it is still only a 4 wound insignificant totem.

I'm bringing it up to show what a fine line between too weak and too strong there can sometimes be. 

[Cursed25]

2 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Dashel is ridiculous and needs a nerf. I don't understand how this continues to not be a topic of discussion. So, I'm sure its been discussed but I want to bring the discussion back out. 

The card draw off the scheme marker thing is over tuned when the dispatcher counts as a scheme marker. 

Executioners are over tuned. 

Gage is over tuned. 

 Discuss. 

 

Why asking to nerf one of the few competitive masters from Guild? Have we not suffered enough for you!?

[NoahScape]

51 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

Why asking to nerf one of the few competitive masters from Guild? Have we not suffered enough for you!?

Dashel needs a little work because he's over tuned, most of guild is under tuned. They need a little buff

 

[Azahul]

4 hours ago, Commoner1 said:

Dashel needs a nerf

Colette needs a nerf

Nexus needs a nerf

English Ivan needs a nerf

Maxine needs a nerf

Jedza needs a nerf

Dreamer needs a nerf

Leveticus needs a nerf

Jack Daw needs a nerf

Prof. von Schtook needs a nerf

Yan Lo needs a nerf

Shenlong needs a nerf

McCabe needs a nerf

Asami needs a nerf

So'mer needs a nerf

 

Did I forget anyone from the "needs a nerf"-list?

I don't see why Dashel is in an especially dire need of a nerf compared to all the others on this list. Or maybe, just maybe Malifaux is a not overly balanced game and most of it's fun comes from overcoming your crew's weaknesses and beating up supposedly OP crews.

Hamelin was the subject of discussion in need of a nerf a fortnight ago   It was a fun chat.

[Shlowmoe]

This reeks of someone getting smashed by Daschel whose knee jerk reaction was to come here and make a post about it.  He's strong (and so is basically any other summoner) and could use a tuning but it's not far breaking. 

[NoahScape]

Take the card draw away from the dispatcher and its probably fine. Thats a nerf though.

[NoahScape]

7 minutes ago, Shlowmoe said:

This reeks of someone getting smashed by Daschel whose knee jerk reaction was to come here and make a post about it.  He's strong (and so is basically any other summoner) and could use a tuning but it's not far breaking. 

Didn't get smashed, but thanks for the thought. Summoners do seem to be over tuned as a whole, but some rise to the top of the list. Dashel is at the top for me. He's the best summoner in the game right now. 

 

[fire5tone]

24 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Didn't get smashed, but thanks for the thought. Summoners do seem to be over tuned as a whole, but some rise to the top of the list. Dashel is at the top for me. He's the best summoner in the game right now. 

 

what do you feel makes him better than the likes of dreamer or kirai? (or any other "need to nerf" summoners), not to say hes weak at all, but if you want a discussion it might be better to put your grievances because it seems like most are ok with him

[NoahScape]

First, the card draw. It just keeps on coming with the dispatcher being able to count as a scheme marker. Removing the card draw would be step number 1, or at least making it draw one discard one. 

Secondly, executioners are a 2 inch reach model that comes in slow, which is easily removed in guild. They ignore resistance triggers with crit strike and execute, which is fine. Why the 2 inch reach with scatter and trail of gore? They more likely will be hitting you with stat 7 due to pursue. The crew itself can easily move them out of combat so there is no way to really lock them down. Grit, really good, and hard to kill is really good. 

Scatter, suddenly they can just scheme run and pick up markers, or drop markers. Why do they have this ability? All on a 9 stone summonable minion times 2. 

 

You can't just "kill the dispatcher, its easy". There is a lot of healing and shielding in this crew, and protected/take the hit... come on...

 

You're saying thats not over tuned?

Kirai doesn't have card draw, nor can she summon a model with the capabilities of a executioner, or a mounted rider, really. She doesn't benefit that well from versatile or ook models either like Dashel does.  She has a narrow playability. Goryo and Shikome are good models, but they aren't that good, nor can they do the things those models can do. 

Dreamer is great, but again he can't summon an executioner, which is one of the best minions in the game. 

[fire5tone]

1 hour ago, IronmanKC81 said:

First, the card draw. It just keeps on coming with the dispatcher being able to count as a scheme marker. Removing the card draw would be step number 1, or at least making it draw one discard one. 

Secondly, executioners are a 2 inch reach model that comes in slow, which is easily removed in guild. They ignore resistance triggers with crit strike and execute, which is fine. Why the 2 inch reach with scatter and trail of gore? They more likely will be hitting you with stat 7 due to pursue. The crew itself can easily move them out of combat so there is no way to really lock them down. Grit, really good, and hard to kill is really good.

first, 1 card per turn on the dispatcher unless some executioners are close enough to trail of gore him

second, they arent easy summons, on dispatcher it requires a 13R for an all melee unit in a crew without much expert shot, i may be missing it but im not personally seeing all that much healing or shielding, and if he is mostly what makes the crew unbalanced (from 2") would lowering his melee to one or even zero be all it takes to "fix" it

1 hour ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Kirai doesn't have card draw, nor can she summon a model with the capabilities of a executioner, or a mounted rider, really. She doesn't benefit that well from versatile or ook models either like Dashel does.  She has a narrow playability. Goryo and Shikome are good models, but they aren't that good, nor can they do the things those models can do. 

Dreamer is great, but again he can't summon an executioner, which is one of the best minions in the game. 

a summoner is not necessarily made *entirely* off their summons. just because kirai or dreamer may not have a super melee/ranged tarpit/beater on their lists of summons doesnt make them "worse".

kirai has rather insane healing at times and units like goryo who can boost her crews effectiveness against enemies with built in adversary or on that very same ability teleporting an upwards of 10" as a bonus while taking their ability to heal, or better yet (or just more interestingly) a totem with 2/3/4 irreducible damage that if killed before kirai activates can get two activations.

and dreamer can dream his deck into near nonexistance...

[Higgybeans]

7 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Secondly, executioners are a 2 inch reach model that comes in slow, which is easily removed in guild. They ignore resistance triggers with crit strike and execute, which is fine. Why the 2 inch reach with scatter and trail of gore? They more likely will be hitting you with stat 7 due to pursue. The crew itself can easily move them out of combat so there is no way to really lock them down. Grit, really good, and hard to kill is really good. 

Scatter, suddenly they can just scheme run and pick up markers, or drop markers. Why do they have this ability? All on a 9 stone summonable minion times 2. 

It seems like most of your dislike is actually aimed at executioners, not Dashel. But I don't see the problem, most crews have some form of beater to actually get through the opposing lines. This is the Guard version of that.

I know a lot of Guild have crit strike, but apart from that the Guard models don't really have great damage output so they need something like this to actually kill models.

You moan about 2" reach, but they are giant men with massive claws. It makes sense. Why aren't you complaining about other models with 2" reach, I don't see why this is an unbalanced factor?

As said, to summon them requires a 13 and either soulstone, or a ram, so it's not like you aren't putting an investment in. Even if you do draw a card it is unlikely to be as good in your hand.

[Legislat]

Hi,

I guess this post is the result of our match. Let me clarify something in advance:

1) The game itself was a pretty close one. I was mostly a sitting duck and Yan Lo played an aggresion face tank with some preparation turn 1

2) My predicted result was my loss actually. It was really a combination of the best value from my crew and an incredible luck with the drawing of high crows from the discard pile (by the lawyer) and actually flipping it later on the executioneers attack that decided the game in my favor (with both Yan Lo and Izamu dead as a result). Yan Lo in his current form is pretty bonkers itself.

So...

Yes, Dashel is our best choice in the single masters format. Why is that? Lets summarise with a bit of an example of my thought process:

1) Dashels keyword is actually not really that good except the high end Mounted Guards and Executioneers. The sole value of them being an incredible summons. But that comes with the cost.

I never ever consider hiring low tier models in serious games.

Dogs are complete crap in GG1
Patrols are worth something only as a desperate summons or fodder for a recruiter (not for a serious games). They are excellent as a demise result though.
Wardens are a niche pick/summon (hello, Jack). 

Riflemen - too niche, need a valid map and a stategy pool. They require too much attention and do to little without something to shoot at.
Sergeants are generally a result of unlucky card draw. I really dont need them for support as they are too expensive for what they do and I have a better models for summon itself.
MG are excellent, though I dont want to hire them as I dont want them to fill up actual hire slots for neccessary models.
Executioneers - best summons hands down, but them requiring a king makes me just forget about everything in keyword when hiring. I need something else entirely for that to work.

And the last, but not least - Mr. Queeg.
Forget about this piece of crap. He is for casual games or for smashing newbies.

2) So what Dashel needs and what actually makes him so frustrating to play against?

Number one star - The almighty Lawyer.

Why? Because this model provides the support this crew NEEDS. The Dispatcher itself only provides draw as an after effect of a summon itself, so it can not actually help you when you need it. You can go for a double executioneer hire to offset that though you will be forced to waste their activations at the very least first turn expept maybe in closer deployment - good luck with that alfa play. Lawyer can help with finding the neccesary severe from the discard for summon, high crows for execute or Lone Marshals exorcism, you can fetch this king of rams (or RJ) right after Dashels activation right back if you already had it in the first place. This requires a turtilng gameplay for best results, but will benefit you either way. The lawyers have excellent synergy with Gage, Lone Marshal, Undercover Reporters and Emissary. Shields with surge on demand is golden.

This is an always pick. I often take 2. 

The other important models:
Pale Rider - his ultimate keeps the whole guild (except Hoff) together. Remove him and everything will be 50% worse.
Gage - Dashels own henchman is a bunch of crap. The crew needs a reliable soulstone user except the master itself. She is the best one with the 3 potential actions. The other alternative is Judge and Alan, but they are a lot less flexible and offer a considerbly smaller pool of possibilities. Judge cant protect anyone and Alan is a lot worse in survivability. The guard keyword has a strong "Loot their corpses" ability, but only master and a card draw is a valid choice for them. That is kinda stupid.
Steward - he is invaluable with the FMM and condition removal. Sadly we have nothing to replace him with.
The Lone marshal - we need him against summoning crews and if we dont really expect high aggressive pressure.
The undercover reporter - free card from a lawyer, a great way to send this pesky Hanged to his own corner deployment. A niche pick, but a very valuable sometimes.
The Effigy with an upgrade - the least important. Nice for vendetta and far deployments when you dont think youll need the second lawyer.

And the last thing to take a look at is The Lead Lined Coat. This thing is what dragging the guild down hard. This is the only upgrade in the guild. Literaly. And Dashel has it for free.

So whats the result?

This crew turtles hard, then snowballs if you feed him your own crew. 

An afterthough:

Those models are not only Dashels crew exclusives. Nellie, Lucius, Sonnia are a kinda switch-on, switch-out masters for those models. That is a huge problem, I know. The thing is the whole guild is almost void of valuable enough mechanics and keyword synergies. They are almost never worth the effort to just build a crew on. Look at the guards themselves - their synergies are not worth the effort, as they require the hiring of subpur models to achive mediocre results with the considerable investment. The same goes for Perditas crew - everything in keyword is crap except Francisco. Just compare the stats to some other crews, its not even funny. Just imagine her keyword crew against new faction - the odds are not in your favor at all.

So what needs to be done (To Dashel and Guild on the bigger scale)?

Dashel:

1) I always said the card draw from the totem is too much. The better way is to get some card draw to sergeants for example.
2) Keyword should be complete. Guards are a bit lonely with only one henchman and no enforcers. We need some juice! I cant imagine what the future Dashels title will be without this buffs. I cant quite comprehend how he can force the keyword usage without some new synergies.

Yep, thats all for now. Thats because guild as the whole is coming next:

1) The LLC needs a redesign. 90% of the models in guild are designed with the LLC in mind (With the notable exceptions as Phiona Gage - thats one of the reasons she is so popular). This weights down on the whole faction. Laugh off and the armor +1 should probably be on the different upgrades alltogether.
Expert marskman needs a heavy redesign, i am tired of the upgrade that is only used on Sonnia very rarely. (Nobody in the right mind will use it on Nino as Perdita is not competitive right now).
No Prisoners ended up as a failure. The cost and requirements and aftermath of "Catch them!" is to clunky.

2) Lots of nevertakes need a buff. Family as a whole need a lot of work, minions under 5 SS need something special to take them (I really hope GG2 will help with that, they are not worth it right now)

3) We need a keyword models that will offer something UNIQUE to the crew. We have some like lawyers, but they are so good they offer it to any crew.

That is the main problem, not the Dashel itself. The gap between good models and mediocres are too great. And I dont think we will be as competitive without our best models and buffs all over the place. We dont have alternatives. The Pale Rider is one of kind, The Lone Marshal is one of a kind and so on. Everything else is just the mix of stats with occasional crappy keyword synergy.

All of the above is pretty much applicable to every guild crew with Hoffman being a minor exception - he has a lot of very good blue alternatives.

Phew, that was a lot longer then i wanted to at start, sorry for the wall of text.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Tools for the job is pretty nuts. Without it, if you draw 10 cards you have over a 1/3 chance to whiff drawing the card you need to summon an executioner.

I find the same thing in Ressers. Nurse is a huge candidate for best model OOK, and Tools For The Job is a serious part of her value.

[lusciousmccabe]

I miss the days when the forum autocorrected nerf to cuddle. 

[Ogid]

16 hours ago, Commoner1 said:

I don't see why Dashel is in an especially dire need of a nerf compared to all the others on this list.

Because it's Guild obviously, GUI is supposed to be bad! (👈 joke, lower your pitchforks)

17 hours ago, Commoner1 said:

Or maybe, just maybe Malifaux is a not overly balanced game and most of it's fun comes from overcoming your crew's weaknesses and beating up supposedly OP crews.

I'm guilty of this; this is probably why I enjoy so much gimmicks and playing the underdogs tbh.

[trikk]

It was mentioned multiple times:

Biggest issue with Guild is that a lot of models are pretty generic: mediocre stat, give it a gun, a melee attack and off you go. The internal Guild synergies are also pretty weak (except Hoff and kind of Lucius) which means you rather get versatiles and/or all-star picks than get into keyword. 

 

Georgy and OIaf, an 8SS Enforcer shoots almost on Dita level. Let that sink in  

 

 

LLC is probably one of the best upgrades in the game. But no other faction is really balanced around one upgrade. Guild keywords also really lacks support models (that's why you see the lawyer everywhere)

I really hope they would have a bigger errata somewhere next year

 

[Dark Reaper]

@Legislat fantastic post. I agree with literally everything you said.

 

Lawyers are literally the only minions I ever hire (aside from a very infrequent use of Pathfinders, or a Changeling or two in Lucius). In a recent grand tournament, I hired a Mounted Guard once in five games as the only keyword model in Dashel, and then only because the strategy was symbols.

 

There are too many dud choices in the faction, so you basically take the few that are competitive. I am 100% sure that Guild is the faction that would be most hamstrung by any nerfs at this point as the second best models aren't nearly good enough to step up and take the place of the current best choices. That being said, the card draw on the Dispatcher is too good and probably needs to be changed.

[explorator]

The Dispatcher just got changed, so I do not see another rework while so many other models in the game still need a first-time refinement.

Dashel is fine right where he is; a killable summoner who can fight. Is the Dispatcher a strong Totem? Yup! Is the Dispatcher easily killed? Yup! Can Dashel dominate with lucky card draws if the opponent ignores the Dispatcher? Yup!

Dashel's crew is as vulnerable as the Dispather; few other crews rely so heavily on a 4-wound Totem, and even putting pressure on him can hinder Guild plans. 

The Dreamer crew has FAR better synergy, and REMOVING low cards from your deck is a TOP 3 ability at the Master level.

[Higgybeans]

 

4 hours ago, Legislat said:

1) Dashels keyword is actually not really that good except the high end Mounted Guards and Executioneers. The sole value of them being an incredible summons. But that comes with the cost.

I think they are both fine to have in the main list, then you can replace them if needed!

4 hours ago, Legislat said:

And the last thing to take a look at is The Lead Lined Coat. This thing is what dragging the guild down hard. This is the only upgrade in the guild. Literaly. And Dashel has it for free.

No Prisoners ended up as a failure. The cost and requirements and aftermath of "Catch them!" is to clunky.

 

So you are probably in a better position than me to see if this is any good, but I had a dream and it worked there.....

List:
Dashel
Dispatcher
2 Mounted Guard with No Prisoners
2 Executioners
Lawyer
6 stones.

So my thoughts were, pair up Mounted Guard with each executioners. Ride with Me, bringing them up the board then shooting a thing to teleport an executioner into the enemy lines with the upgrade. Do some other things, do it again with the other pair?

I agree LLC is very strong, but the others have niche situations like this. But saying that expert marksmen doesn't do a lot because the models you want it on, usually have similar rules already.

[NoahScape]

2 hours ago, Higgybeans said:

 

I think they are both fine to have in the main list, then you can replace them if needed!

So you are probably in a better position than me to see if this is any good, but I had a dream and it worked there.....

List:
Dashel
Dispatcher
2 Mounted Guard with No Prisoners
2 Executioners
Lawyer
6 stones.

So my thoughts were, pair up Mounted Guard with each executioners. Ride with Me, bringing them up the board then shooting a thing to teleport an executioner into the enemy lines with the upgrade. Do some other things, do it again with the other pair?

I agree LLC is very strong, but the others have niche situations like this. But saying that expert marksmen doesn't do a lot because the models you want it on, usually have similar rules already.

And thats a bad list, which is why you don't see it when good players are taking Dashel.

 

[Omenbringer]

On 12/5/2020 at 1:47 PM, Commoner1 said:

So'mer needs a nerf

Completely off topic but....Damn is it that time again? I had hoped after all his changes that I wouldn't ever hear this again. The new Som'er just doesn't really feel right to me.

[fire5tone]

3 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

And thats a bad list, which is why you don't see it when good players are taking Dashel.

 

what's wrong with it? i assume your atleast in partial agreement about queeg being bad, but the only thing that particularly strikes me as off here is the lack of rifleman 

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

what's wrong with it? i assume your atleast in partial agreement about queeg being bad, but the only thing that particularly strikes me as off here is the lack of rifleman 

I don't know the faction very well, but competitive lists for most crews tend to include Phiona and Pale Rider I think?