Errata 2022: Exploring the predictions

[OctaBit]

Copied from the Resser's forum, but always fun to gauge the communities opinions on the faction and the models that make it up.

The Next season of GG and the accompanying Errata are fast approaching. This one is especially important for ES since this is the first errata since the factions been fully released. What models do you think need some work, and what models do you think will get a well deserved cuddle? *cough* Archivist *cough*

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think if Cadmus AND Archivist aren't both hit, people would riot xD

Other contenders for nerfs include:

• English Ivan
• Mikhail
• Winston
• Vernon and Welles
• Calypso and Beebe
• Emissary/Effigy
• Austera & Twigge

And possibly a few others.

My top pick for favourite model that needs an errata fix is Alpinist. Its aura just doesn't work as intended, which is very disappointing. I just love the model xD

[OctaBit]

Alpinist seems like a pretty easy win for a fix. Just something like "when a model starts a move within this aura blah blah blah." It would be nice if they upped its melee to a stat 5 but for 5 stones I don't think you could ask for more. 

I'm curious why you have Mikhail on the list? I haven't touched seeker yet so I'm not sure what he does that's bonkers.

The only other model I can really think to change would be to make the Harpooner work a bit better with cooper, but thats not a huge priority.

[Kevinsmith101]

I think Ivan will get hit harshly. 

I like Ivan alot and I think you can pull him back around by removing the ability to remove shadow markers to make damage zero. This makes him very killable without the emmisary/ effigy tax of 10 (6) stones. And as much as this hurts to say.... reduce his damage track from 2/3/4 to 1/2/4 and he retains the shadow pin trigger this still gives him the same severe damage but means he need 2 good moderates with a shadow pin to kill the average 6 wound model as opposed to a moderate and a weak. 

[Math Mathonwy]

On 1/7/2022 at 12:43 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think if Cadmus AND Archivist aren't both hit, people would riot xD

Other contenders for nerfs include:

• English Ivan
• Mikhail
• Winston
• Vernon and Welles
• Calypso and Beebe
• Emissary/Effigy
• Austera & Twigge

And possibly a few others.

My top pick for favourite model that needs an errata fix is Alpinist. Its aura just doesn't work as intended, which is very disappointing. I just love the model xD

Cadmus and Archivist seem like the most obvious yeah. English Ivan, too. And Emissary/Effigy would affect a lot of the feelsbad-stuff in the faction so those would be my predictions.

Alpinist would definitely be good to fix, yeah. I would also like to see Malisaurus Rex to not be so susceptible to being immobilized by an enemy Obey. He's an expensive model and it's a pretty severe weakness that can kinda turn a game on its head pretty easily making him a bit of a liability. Obeys (and similar) aren't all that rare, after all (and he would still be a prime target for them even if fixed).

The model that surprises me the most in your list is probably Winston. I mean, I understand that he's pretty good but I didn't know that he was seen as being OP.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

The model that surprises me the most in your list is probably Winston. I mean, I understand that he's pretty good but I didn't know that he was seen as being OP.

I've also never struggled against Winston (although I tend to play card-draw crews). He's a pretty divisive model, but yeah I think it is probably a bit of a stretch to hit him.

[50 SS Enforcer]

Maybe if Ivan takes his summon trigger, it’s an instead of damaging summon a model. I mean it’s already a no target number summon, why does it do damage too? 

[Kevinsmith101]

I think the problem there would become the fact it would be a summon with no agency for the summoner. Yes you could summon on next to nothing instead of requiring a moderate/ severe to hit a TN but equally your opponent can cheat to prevent it. So Ivan would need 2 crows and likely a high card to summon. Where others require 1 high card and 1 suit 

54 minutes ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

Maybe if Ivan takes his summon trigger, it’s an instead of damaging summon a model. I mean it’s already a no target number summon, why does it do damage too? 

 

[Kevinsmith101]

Mik is very solid, perhaps reduce him to a 1" melee and drop his place on healing chronicle to 4" so he can clear a 50mm base but not a 50mm and a 30mm to arrive on the other side. 

Archivist has a great attack that's really nasty, make it either range 6" or stat 5. Range 6" means he would require an extra ap dedicated to get him close enough to use it. And range 10 is strong as most move 5 models need to walk, then charge to hit him and he has shielded 2. 

If he is only 6" away it's a charge for a 5mv 1" melee model and a second attack 

[trikk]

7 minutes ago, Kevinsmith101 said:

Mik is very solid, perhaps reduce him to a 1" melee and drop his place on healing chronicle to 4" so he can clear a 50mm base but not a 50mm and a 30mm to arrive on the other side. 

Archivist has a great attack that's really nasty, make it either range 6" or stat 5. Range 6" means he would require an extra ap dedicated to get him close enough to use it. And range 10 is strong as most move 5 models need to walk, then charge to hit him and he has shielded 2. 

If he is only 6" away it's a charge for a 5mv 1" melee model and a second attack 

The biggest issue with Archivist is Ill Omens IMHO

[Yore Huckleberry]

On 1/6/2022 at 4:43 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think if Cadmus AND Archivist aren't both hit, people would riot xD

Other contenders for nerfs include:

• English Ivan
• Mikhail
• Winston
• Vernon and Welles
• Calypso and Beebe
• Emissary/Effigy
• Austera & Twigge

And possibly a few others.

My top pick for favourite model that needs an errata fix is Alpinist. Its aura just doesn't work as intended, which is very disappointing. I just love the model xD

I think Ivan is a much worse issue than Nexus/Cadmus. Cadmus is a slog to play against, but I really do think it's solvable and disruptable, especially with some of the new titles tools.

Ivan is simply overtuned across master, totem, summons, and keyword. Honestly, Eva is a huge piece of that. I think Lock Away needs to be modified to allow for a high TN duel (WP 15?). At present, it can stop scoring actions a little too potently. Though I'll admit that part of it might be that I haven't fully explored the tech involved in stopping her.

[Korrok]

17 hours ago, Kevinsmith101 said:

 

Archivist has a great attack that's really nasty, make it either range 6" or stat 5. Range 6" means he would require an extra ap dedicated to get him close enough to use it. And range 10 is strong as most move 5 models need to walk, then charge to hit him and he has shielded 2. 

 

The base function of that attack won't get touched since they gave it to the new daw. You could see the stat lowered. Or what's more likely, a change to the triggers. 

I think Beebe and calypso should have their discount when hiring be changed so it only happens if being hired in a crew lead by an evs model. That way the rest of the factions not bringing them at cost. 

Kiya could use a buff imo. She's too I consistant and resource intensive for a 10 stone model. 

[Korrok]

13 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I think Ivan is a much worse issue than Nexus/Cadmus. Cadmus is a slog to play against, but I really do think it's solvable and disruptable, especially with some of the new titles tools.

Ivan is simply overtuned across master, totem, summons, and keyword. Honestly, Eva is a huge piece of that. I think Lock Away needs to be modified to allow for a high TN duel (WP 15?). At present, it can stop scoring actions a little too potently. Though I'll admit that part of it might be that I haven't fully explored the tech involved in stopping her.

Ranged marker removal is basically a requirement with the titles now adays. 

[im_open_to_suggestions]

23 hours ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

Maybe if Ivan takes his summon trigger, it’s an instead of damaging summon a model. I mean it’s already a no target number summon, why does it do damage too? 

This 100%. a target number on the summon would also be an option. currently able to summon on a Black joker which is just a little bit silly.

[Kevinsmith101]

I don't get it, why is summoning a model(s) on a fixed number TN with 1 suit needed generally seen as fairer than Ivan needing 2 suits and to beat your opponents flip just because your opponent could flip low? Is the answer not to just remove shadow pin as a trigger? So it's basically... bam... 2/3/4 damage. Or on 2 crows ( which is reasonable considering the swap out pos for suits) you do 2/3/4 and summon?  

Edited January 9, 2022 by Kevinsmith101

[Adran]

Partially it's because those times when you flip the red joker and still don't get to summon are almost always followed by another attack in which you do get to summon since you just don't declare the trigger if you're losing. )( and I feel its also partially because people think the whole process is too strong, and aren't providing a fully balanced view but rather bits that support their view. I know there are times when I do that sort of thing, even when I try not too). 

[Peturd]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Partially it's because those times when you flip the red joker and still don't get to summon are almost always followed by another attack in which you do get to summon since you just don't declare the trigger if you're losing. )( and I feel its also partially because people think the whole process is too strong, and aren't providing a fully balanced view but rather bits that support their view. I know there are times when I do that sort of thing, even when I try not too). 

Well said. People only put out the best case scenarios and salty takes when talking nerfs. I think the best solution was above. Lower the damage track. Even removing the reduce damage ability from front of card might be fine. But I hope the changes are more like how Colette got changed than some of the salty “ruin him” takes I see.

On 1/8/2022 at 1:42 PM, Yore Huckleberry said:

I think Ivan is a much worse issue than Nexus/Cadmus. Cadmus is a slog to play against, but I really do think it's solvable and disruptable, especially with some of the new titles tools.

Ivan is simply overtuned across master, totem, summons, and keyword. Honestly, Eva is a huge piece of that. I think Lock Away needs to be modified to allow for a high TN duel (WP 15?). At present, it can stop scoring actions a little too potently. Though I'll admit that part of it might be that I haven't fully explored the tech involved in stopping her.

So … one is solvable and the other just isn’t? Then you admit you haven’t put in any effort to solve against DUA. Feels like this take isn't in good faith.

[Cursed25]

On 1/8/2022 at 8:18 AM, Kevinsmith101 said:

Mik is very solid, perhaps reduce him to a 1" melee and drop his place on healing chronicle to 4" so he can clear a 50mm base but not a 50mm and a 30mm to arrive on the other side. 

Archivist has a great attack that's really nasty, make it either range 6" or stat 5. Range 6" means he would require an extra ap dedicated to get him close enough to use it. And range 10 is strong as most move 5 models need to walk, then charge to hit him and he has shielded 2. 

If he is only 6" away it's a charge for a 5mv 1" melee model and a second attack 

I don't think Mikhail should be nerfed! he is solid for 10ss but he also only has 2 actions with a really weak bonus action! His melee action is good but on par with what other big beaters have. His best action in my opinion is his shockwave that can really put some pressure on the opponent if a few good targets are bubbling and he has good mobility/synergy with the crew with his Chronicle but a keen opponent can easily block LoS to prevent him form teleporting. For a 10ss beater, he is far from OP in my opinion.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

On 1/8/2022 at 11:42 AM, Yore Huckleberry said:

Ivan is simply overtuned across master, totem, summons, and keyword. Honestly, Eva is a huge piece of that. I think Lock Away needs to be modified to allow for a high TN duel (WP 15?). At present, it can stop scoring actions a little too potently. Though I'll admit that part of it might be that I haven't fully explored the tech involved in stopping her.

I’m not sure Eva is really a significant part of the issue in his crew.  She’s generally not that difficult to kill and any pushes, marker removal, or large based models can really limit the effectiveness of Lock Away.  

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Kevinsmith101 said:

I don't get it, why is summoning a model(s) on a fixed number TN with 1 suit needed generally seen as fairer than Ivan needing 2 suits and to beat your opponents flip just because your opponent could flip low? Is the answer not to just remove shadow pin as a trigger? So it's basically... bam... 2/3/4 damage. Or on 2 crows ( which is reasonable considering the swap out pos for suits) you do 2/3/4 and summon?  

I think that it is mostly that most Summoners need some sort of hoops to jump through (most often the creation and then expenditure of Scrap or Corpse Markers) while English Ivan Summons while doing damage to the opposing models, which isn't really a cost but kinda the opposite. Now, there are other Summoners who Summon without much of a cost but those are usually the ones that people complain about. Add to that Ivan's extremely powerful Totem and how amazing the whole Shadow Marker thing is (which means that he is actually quite a competent damage dealer in addition to being a summoner that offers good support and has a super totem) and his kit does appear quite over-tuned compared to most.

[Morgan Vening]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that it is mostly that most Summoners need some sort of hoops to jump through (most often the creation and then expenditure of Scrap or Corpse Markers) while English Ivan Summons while doing damage to the opposing models, which isn't really a cost but kinda the opposite. Now, there are other Summoners who Summon without much of a cost but those are usually the ones that people complain about. Add to that Ivan's extremely powerful Totem and how amazing the whole Shadow Marker thing is (which means that he is actually quite a competent damage dealer in addition to being a summoner that offers good support and has a super totem) and his kit does appear quite over-tuned compared to most.

There's also the issue that he's one of the few Summoners that can make multiple attempts, and can manage it with few resources. 

A Daeva in melee with the chosen target, and you're Stat 6 with a Crow and a positive flip. Meaning even if you've only got a 9 or 10 of Crows in hand (less if your opponents hand sucks), you're probably going to get it off. And that's not factoring in the greater likelihood over those attempts, of just top-decking the win.

Most Summoners need a 12+ for their premium summon, and a Black Joker ices them. Neither applies to 1van.

[Peturd]

39 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

There's also the issue that he's one of the few Summoners that can make multiple attempts, and can manage it with few resources. 

A Daeva in melee with the chosen target, and you're Stat 6 with a Crow and a positive flip. Meaning even if you've only got a 9 or 10 of Crows in hand (less if your opponents hand sucks), you're probably going to get it off. And that's not factoring in the greater likelihood over those attempts, of just top-decking the win.

Most Summoners need a 12+ for their premium summon, and a Black Joker ices them. Neither applies to 1van.

That’s not right. Runic isn’t a gun so friendly fire doesn’t matter. That just gives you one positive. You need to have already given him distracted, and gotten the enemy concealment. And it’s stat 6, but to get the equivalent of other summoners 12 card summons the target needs a stat 6 at least. So that means you can’t count it as a sure thing unless you have the red joker. And it costs: positioning, distracted, and likely a high card, also likely a stone for the second crow unless you are lucky.

BUT! Yeah, I get a couple of Brocken a game pretty reliably unless my opponent doesn’t have WP 6. I’m not trying to pretend it’s not easy. But it’s important to be accurate.
 

if the opponent techs against the Brocken with no WP6 it makes Ivan a great beater who can still summon some Daeva. I think that’s the real problem. If you tech against his summoning you make him wicked strong as a blaster. And either way you can’t even snipe him out either with his defensive shadow markers.

I’m all for a nerf to Ivan and likely Brocken. But a reasonable leveling out. There are a couple titles that are closer to Ivan in power. I’d really like to see quite a few things in other factions be brought up, and Ivan brought down rather than just crush him under a mountain of salt and tears. Remember the explorers super friends would likely all be nerfed as well.

[Kevinsmith101]

Ah OK I'm starting to get it. I think I was beginning to compare apples and oranges. I think I will go with my initial thought and dropping  the damage track and removing his shadow marker removal ability to reduce damage. 

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, Peturd said:

That’s not right. Runic isn’t a gun so friendly fire doesn’t matter. That just gives you one positive. You need to have already given him distracted, and gotten the enemy concealment. And it’s stat 6, but to get the equivalent of other summoners 12 card summons the target needs a stat 6 at least. So that means you can’t count it as a sure thing unless you have the red joker. And it costs: positioning, distracted, and likely a high card, also likely a stone for the second crow unless you are lucky.

Yeah, I always forget you don't get to call FF. Up until Ivan2 and Jin, it only applied to Derringers which are mediocre options most of the time.

And yes, I don't want to undersell that it is simple, but your argument re cheating rests on the singular.

If you win or tie all three attacks (not likely, but far from impossible), your opponent is going to need to expend a crapload of resources to stop the Summon. Only so many Severe/RJ an opponent can have.

Ivan Summoning is far from easy, but the manner in which it's done does make it far more possible to be done with less than others. No other Summoner can summon an 8SS model with a Weak card. And people tend to remember things like that, even if they are statistically unlikely.

[Peturd]

34 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Yeah, I always forget you don't get to call FF. Up until Ivan2 and Jin, it only applied to Derringers which are mediocre options most of the time.

And yes, I don't want to undersell that it is simple, but your argument re cheating rests on the singular.

If you win or tie all three attacks (not likely, but far from impossible), your opponent is going to need to expend a crapload of resources to stop the Summon. Only so many Severe/RJ an opponent can have.

Ivan Summoning is far from easy, but the manner in which it's done does make it far more possible to be done with less than others. No other Summoner can summon an 8SS model with a Weak card. And people tend to remember things like that, even if they are statistically unlikely.

Yeah, I definitely don’t want to dismiss the NPE of having Broken get summoned on an ace of crows when your opponent black jokers. That once in a million generates a LOT of hate.

I guess my only take is we should nerf on the expected/real results, not the possibilities.