Hired Swords- a Viktorias tactica

[Maniacal_cackle]

34 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

If you're the attacker, and your opponent doesn't force you to deploy him first, maybe you can find a good spot for him. If you're the defender, you can see a part of the enemy crew and try to have LoS to those, which you won't be able to shoot (efficiently) until turn 2, when if they wanted to be safe from Hans, they could already have been.

Well, you can decide to hire him after you know whether you're the attacker, but I think you can do modest repositioning regardless of zone in most of those games.

34 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

That means that he can have an impact in the game. Is that impact worht 8ss? IMHO, never with the Outcasts crews that I play, I have better picks for a similar cost.

Another thing is that, if the would have been a good pick, why nobody played him so far? I can think of tons of reasons 😜 

Well, I'm not claiming he is competitive in a world series. I'm claiming he is a fine pick for casual play xD

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You can typically find a corridor where he can shoot, that's not really an issue. The tricky thing is finding a corridor your opponent is going to walk into even knowing Hans is where he is.

That's why I mentioned the centre. For an extreme example, if claim jump + leave your mark are in the pool, you can be reasonably confident that your opponent will go to the centre at some point.

Which is part of the point - you need to find a clear shooting line and then take advantage of future positioning there. If you try to position where your opponent currently is, that's a fruitless chase across the board.

EDIT: I do play with lots of forests, hills, and narrow rocks. Dense is pretty easy to bypass, and concealing and cover are pure upside for him. The only thing that stops his shots is full LOS blocking. If he gets to stand on a hill, even better.

EDIT2: Case in point - in November world series on vassal, every board has multiple deployment zones that can draw LOS to the centre of the board.

u cannt ignore dence terrain and what hans can do to enemy that scores claim jump?

[Maniacal_cackle]

23 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u cannt ignore dence terrain and what hans can do to enemy that scores claim jump?

Not competitively, so you shouldn't use him, but...

You can ignore dense terrain by positioning around it, or just stepping into base contact with it.

For claim jump, he indirectly helps by offering support fire to control the centre.

Additionally, his daze trigger means he can reposition enemy models if you suspect claim jump shenanigans. In an extreme case, you can shoot your own model to reposition it, but I wouldn't recommend that in most cases xD

[touchdown]

The Catalan Brawler unlocks a lot for the Viks. I think he can even make them viable for Public Enemies. Making your squishy masters un-attackable and you have 3 models that can generate extra attacks (and with stats of 7 and 6 so you can get them off).

[Deathknight Tactica]

I know this has probably been asked before but I can't find the thread. What is the proper way to handle the assassination scheme if your opponent is the Viktorias?

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Deathknight Tactica said:

I know this has probably been asked before but I can't find the thread. What is the proper way to handle the assassination scheme if your opponent is the Viktorias?

One Viktoria is declared the leader (which is open information), so you always know which Viktoria counts.

[Deathknight Tactica]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One Viktoria is declared the leader (which is open information), so you always know which Viktoria counts.

Thank you

[Azahul]

It's a dicey scheme anyway mind you. The Viktorias can pack a lot of healing and they only need to get to 5 health to deny the scheme. If they've taken Servant of Dark Powers then that Viktoria only needs one kill to get from 1 health to 5... and then you've let a pretty dangerous model get yet another turn on the table if you keep going for the Reveal. Most of my opponents who've taken Assassinate have given up on scoring the Reveal after a couple of rounds of being denied by some combination of the Emissary/Vanessa/the Viktorias getting kills and have made sure to put the Assassinate target in the dirt without ever scoring the Reveal, and by that point quite a lot of damage has been done.

[Burnin4tor]

19 hours ago, Azahul said:

It's a dicey scheme anyway mind you. The Viktorias can pack a lot of healing and they only need to get to 5 health to deny the scheme. If they've taken Servant of Dark Powers then that Viktoria only needs one kill to get from 1 health to 5... and then you've let a pretty dangerous model get yet another turn on the table if you keep going for the Reveal. Most of my opponents who've taken Assassinate have given up on scoring the Reveal after a couple of rounds of being denied by some combination of the Emissary/Vanessa/the Viktorias getting kills and have made sure to put the Assassinate target in the dirt without ever scoring the Reveal, and by that point quite a lot of damage has been done.

^this, I’d agree just don’t take it if you want more than the end point. But I’ve had more than a few opponents surprised by how hard they are to take down given their low health pool and defences. If your own crew has lots of armour, terrifying, inhuman reflexes etc and are hard to put down then they’re easier to kill because they have to heal by killing other (usually weaker) models.

[Tris]

On 4/12/2021 at 6:26 PM, touchdown said:

The Catalan Brawler unlocks a lot for the Viks. I think he can even make them viable for Public Enemies. Making your squishy masters un-attackable and you have 3 models that can generate extra attacks (and with stats of 7 and 6 so you can get them off).

What model is this?

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Tris said:

What model is this?

Will be released in the Outcast starter set (along with Yannic and 2 catalan riflemen).

 Yannic and the riflemen where shown a week later

 

[Trample]

Do you suppose Yannic can make the Desperate Mercenaries worth it in this keyword? They can push 2", interact, shoot, rapid fire to draw a card and shoot again with Yannic's aura. Previously these guys would never rapid fire, but Yannic makes it worthwhile. The push also gives them an opportunity to almost always hit the interacts and shots. So, 4 points for a 14" stat 5 gun they can shoot twice per turn and draw a card every turn. It's 15 points with Yannic. 

You can hire Yannic with 2x Catalan Riflemen they can do that turns 2+ since they have to start the engine with an interact before using their 0. They're also +2 points (for the package). 

Either way, there are a number of discards in Mercenary that make Yannic a decent option with the Viks, Ronin, and Big Jake. 

[Jesy Blue]

Short answer: no.

Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Competent answer: the Desperate Mercenary is not worth the hiring even with Yannic card draw. Why would you want to shoot a Min 1 gun more than once anyway?

 The only thing they remotely had going for them was Disguised, but now anyone can get that from an Upgrade.

"Gretchen, stop trying to make Desperate Mercenary happen; it's not going to happen."

[Zebo]

Maybe, if Wyrd realize and gives them weak 2 in their gun they will see some table. 

 

But I doubt it. 

[RisingPhoenix]

On 8/8/2021 at 3:41 PM, Zebo said:

Maybe, if Wyrd realize and gives them weak 2 in their gun they will see some table. 

 

But I doubt it. 

Give them stat 5, Hard to Kill, and make the gun always flip straight flip on damage and be uncheatable.  

I'm not even joking, that's about what it would take.

[touchdown]

I'm no fan of them but their gun is already stat 5 lol

[Zebo]

Just to be clear, when I say I doubt it I don't mean I doubt they would see table with weak 2 damage in their gun. I mean I doubt Wyrd does that change. 

 

The proble is that they gave them in the beta a Clockwork Rifle, so not only the had a 14" Stat 5 2/3/5 gun, but they also ignored cover, and two of them used to do a heck of a gunline for 8ss.

I think making the Rifle 2/3/4 would be enough to make them see a lot of table. 

 

Even would be good to give them a collier pistol with 12" 2/3/4. What kills them is that weak 1.

[RisingPhoenix]

What kills them is randomly dying to basically any attack in the entire game.  The fact that their piece of shit gun also hits for 1 is terrible, but we have Bandidos in Parker and those are approximately as useful at min 2.  Because they die to basically everything (and even have run and gun!  So they can move, charge, shoot, die).   Malifaux 3E is a game that favors small, elite crews, and things like Desperate mercenaries are playing into exactly why small elite crews are good - they give the elite crew activation control, they give a very rewarding target for elite henchmen (4 stone reward for using a severe from hand) and even if they somehow hit they chip the elite for minimal damage before dying (if the elite has Armor 1 then min 2 and min 1 are very similar, and a lot of elites have armor 1 equivalents). 

There's a reason you can basically count the number of good 4 ss models without running out of fingers.  Something like desperate mercenaries need an ability to stand and fight, and that means they have to be able to eat two attacks reliably. 

I will absolutely guarantee you if you make them min 2 they will not see a drop more play at competitive tables. They'd only be good at killing the exact sort of models that never show up in competitive play (other models like them). 

Or, to pass the test, "is this better than two Bayou Gremlins?" (no)

[touchdown]

I don't think it's possible to balance a 4 stone ranged combat model. They'll either die too easily to be useful or be too good and everyone will complain about how a 4 ss model can kite their 8 ss model to death.

All the good 4 ss models are utility models, not combat models.

[Morgan Vening]

12 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

There's a reason you can basically count the number of good 4 ss models without running out of fingers.  Something like desperate mercenaries need an ability to stand and fight, and that means they have to be able to eat two attacks reliably. 

That there are 50+ 4SS models, indicates this is a problem.

Sure, some that are crap to hire are going to see some use as summons (hey, Canyonero Pistolero), and 8 of them are Effigies, but I think it definitely needs review.

I get the point of Pass Tokens, and how activation control was an issue in previous editions, but I don't think the answer worked. I find myself rarely taking any model below 7SS, or more than 5 models out of SS (ie, beyond the Master and totems), and looking at a lot of lists, I'm not that far off people taking things much more competitively than I am.

Not sure how to fix it, but there's a lot of smaller cost models now, short of summons, that'll rarely if ever see the table.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I dunno, I just did a quick count of non-effigy cost-4 models that I've seen HIRED (not summoned) in competitive play, and there were 21 of them.

That means almost half are hirable. When you include effigies and summons, suddenly a whole ton of them see table time.

One issue is just that there are so many low-cost models, a few are going to miss out.

[admiralvorkraft]

Considering how many players only hire a handful of models anyway I don't think it's a uniquely low cost model problem.

[Gheist]

I think it has gotten better this GG2 because the major motivation to only take 5 models + insignificant totem is gone due to the strategies changing.

I think the mercenary in particular is outdated, some models would need some minor love. Like compare mercenary to hopeful prospect (because the gun is the same apart from the stat.)

It does not figure.

I personally think the merc just needs a bonus action (like e.g. chain gang maybe) in exchange for rapid fire, which reads to me as ditch one card to maybe do 1 dmg. On the other hand i guess nobody really has played them much because i would be interested how often moderate damage would come up if you just position two mercs and keep shooting. Anybody ever done that before complaining? i didn't

Best play my desperate mercenary had was when vanessa went next to the leyline marker and shot him in the face so he died and passed the marker 11,8 inches over to her winning me the game

[Adran]

Low cost models have an intrinsic problem, they have to be less good than higher cost models.

There are typically 3 different ways that power is expressed - Offensive power, defensive power or support.

You probably need to drop in at least 2 of the 3 ways. The problem for a Combat model is that Offensive power without defensive power just gets you killed, and defensive power without offensive power just gets you written off as no more than a nuisence. So its models that drop in both but still can be useful that are seen. (Healers/buffers, or models that rely on mobility are probably the  most common)

The pass token is part of it, but I still think the biggest culprit is Focus, and the ability to keep it from turn to turn, meaning that 6 damage in a single action is fairly easy to arrange (especially when you include the charge change), so anything below that is likely to not do much if it gets threatened. 

[Gheist]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

The pass token is part of it, but I still think the biggest culprit is Focus, and the ability to keep it from turn to turn, meaning that 6 damage in a single action is fairly easy to arrange (especially when you include the charge change), so anything below that is likely to not do much if it gets threatened.

Yeah that kind of nails it although then we are talking everything up to 6 health without Armor/incorp/HTW/HTK

So: what would be the solution? i think hard to kill for everyone is kinda... flavourless?

I think i'd like to see the +to damage on focus dropped to be honest, because it's to much of a no brainer in so many ways. I think +1 to stat would be more interesting because it would bring the card mechanic back into the picture again.

4SS models often suffer from 1 more thing for me which is: they must be damn good for me to even consider leaving a named character i read all the stories of at home. I know, not very mechanic oriented, but am i the only one feeling that way?