Blastaar Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, DocSchlock said: All these core and Master changes are fantastic, but the Dead Man's Hand thing is borderline insulting. Invalidating purchases is the worst, but saying you can still play them by relying on your opponent / TO to approve you doing so is almost equally as bad. Either cut them completely or make them tourney-legal (or legal proxies, which is the easiest solution). Without that, those masters quickly become irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game. If the design space can't support that number of masters, there's a problem with the overall design that needs fixed before the onus is put on your player base (which I know is easier said than done).Using fluff to justify wasting your players' money is a sure-fire way to shed goodwill. Most companies avoid that like the plague. Still, I adore everything else about 3E. I have nothing but optimism outside of the cut Masters issue. This right here is why, for games, it's better to go with a setting, rather than telling a story. Settings don't invalidate people's models or favorite characters, they allow players to tell their own stories instead. Those that have the imagination and don't need the devs to hold their hands, that is. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall78 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Signed up for beta as my other Wyrd playtesting was a lot of fun. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Thedeadclaw said: If you want to actually talk instead of picking fights See? again. You're putting the onus on me instead of realizing that its your wording thats starting the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmantra Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 41 minutes ago, Lalochezia said: Would you play a card game on blank slips of paper that have nothing but rules printed on them? no because they're not blank slips of paper if they have rules on them yes this is all i have to add to this discussion 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: That reads to me that it's a "if you know your friend only wants to run Nicodim let them run him, but as a TO be aware he's not balanced for competitive play" to me. I've done tournament organizing for other games and generally that's how things like Dead Man's Hand work, and even if it's not what you want it probably is the best option to make them playable without making them automatically playable. They will be balanced for competitive play. 3 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Mason said: They will be balanced for competitive play. If they'll be well balanced for competitive play what's the point of not including them automatically outside of the worldwide lore events? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSchlock Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mason said: They will be balanced for competitive play. I'm curious, but if they're balanced for competitive play and they're getting 3E cards, why aren't they just generally legal? Are their crew boxes going out of production and this is a roundabout way of moving them out of the game? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloomy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Does this mean Nicodem gets the Undead trait? Wait... can we summon him?!? Oh please let us summon him 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodares Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Thedeadclaw said: If they'll be well balanced for competitive play what's the point of not including them automatically outside of the worldwide lore events? It probably means there can be several types of playstyle for events. If you're crazy about lore, you can go to a lore event and play according to the lore. Nicodem being unplayable would be essential for this. If you don't care about lore, you can go to a general event which allows all masters. In general I expect the big events to fall in the general category, but there can also be big lore events now as well. both types of players are being helped like this. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, whodares said: It probably means there can be several types of playstyle for events. If you're crazy about lore, you can go to a lore event and play according to the lore. Nicodem being unplayable would be essential for this. If you don't care about lore, you can go to a general event which allows all masters. In general I expect the big events to fall in the general category, but there can also be big lore events now as well. both types of players are being helped like this. Personally, if they're going this route, I think they should go the GW style and make the narrative play the optional style for tournaments, where as the "match play" would be the default for tournaments and events not explicitly stated to be otherwise. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1337 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 While I understand People being upset about missing masters, I want to throw in that we know VERY little yet about M3E. Also these masters might just be gone for now, being able to return with a hefty redesign in the future. Lilith for example is not dead, just imprisoned. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tyrion1337 said: While I understand People being upset about missing masters, I want to throw in that we know VERY little yet about M3E. Also these masters might just be gone for now, being able to return with a hefty redesign in the future. Lilith for example is not dead, just imprisoned. I think it's really easy to just say "you're just upset, calm down" and invalidate peoples opinions without feeling like you're doing that. But there are a lot of reasons to be against these changes other than just being upset. i've always been against removing player choice from games, no matter what game that's been or whether I'm personally effected or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSchlock Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the Dead Man's Hand is due to plastic moulds aging out. Lilith, Ramos, and Nicodem are old sets that probably hit their mould limit and don't sell quite as well, even with being in the top tier in 2E. Collodi is a bit of an outlier there, but they could have moved enough copies to break the mould. Lady J vs Nicodem could easily have been a community poll of "Who gets a new mould?" 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHood Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 *Is currently completing purchase for Lilith and Nicodem crews before the culling Nothing will stop me playing Ramos I just would hate it if I turned up at my LGS and a new player seeing Ramos cannot purchase him at retail for basically no reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goret Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Great news. i applaud "Models are now hired based on their Keyword, which encourages more thematic Crews while also allowing for abilities that more closely tie thematic models together" On the other hand, : "Faction models that don’t share a Keyword with their leader can still be hired, albeit at a slight penalty", i am not so keen on. Please remember from past mistakes, a slight increase like a 12 points model costing 13 will not solve anything. So i hope that abilities will actually be greatly limited to keywords and not "friendly models" or "target models". 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, DocSchlock said: The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the Dead Man's Hand is due to plastic moulds aging out. Lilith, Ramos, and Nicodem are old sets that probably hit their mould limit and don't sell quite as well, even with being in the top tier in 2E. Collodi is a bit of an outlier there, but they could have moved enough copies to break the mould. Lady J vs Nicodem could easily have been a community poll of "Who gets a new mould?" Seems like a lot of the masters they're revamping were less popular than Lilith, Ramos and Nico though? and, if we're under the assumption that everyone is getting a new M3E sculpt like Raspy is...Well, I figure Kaeris would be on the chopping block loooong before Lilith or Nico. So I don't think that's it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just imagine current Levi players when 'new' Levi won't have Pariah of Iron/Bone up available anymore... All these models in your bag which you can't use anymore...😂 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSchlock Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Kyris said: Seems like a lot of the masters they're revamping were less popular than Lilith, Ramos and Nico though? and, if we're under the assumption that everyone is getting a new M3E sculpt like Raspy is...Well, I figure Kaeris would be on the chopping block loooong before Lilith or Nico. So I don't think that's it. If everyone is getting a M3E sculpt, yeah, my idea doesn't work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korgal Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Question! Are you going to propose a "Lord Justice"? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, DocSchlock said: If everyone is getting a M3E sculpt, yeah, my idea doesn't work out. i mean, we only know for sure that 2 models are. but there are a lot of masters it would seem that would require, if not new sculpts, at least entirely new boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortarion Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 About the Dead man's hand masters: I wouldn't rule out that they return in some form in the future. There are opportunities for all of them to return according to the background (except that we don't know what happens with Collodi yet). They might show up redesigned in book 2. Or 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosfr Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 The conspiracy reasons folks come up with for why certain masters leaving is funny. Can't it just be literally because of the storyline? In a year after M3E releases, there will be a new book. And in that book will be new models. There's nothing saying we can't have an undead Nicodem, a risen Lilith and whatever happens to Collodi come back for M3E Book 2. At least that's what I'm hoping the plan is. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 I'll be curious what other models end up in the Dead Man's Hand. The Judge didn't make it out of that scrap with Nico either after all. I certainly understand being upset about losing a favorite master. Ramos is a favorite of mine and I've quite enjoyed Misaki and McCabe without having to pick up a bunch of 10T models. That said, what we're seeing here is a pretty massive change to the point where I have to step back and remember that until the dust settles, I don't really know how my collection will pan out. It is, after all, the way it is now due to a bunch of specific circumstances created by the M2E setup. My crews are heavily influenced by what works and what doesn't in the current ruleset and will change regardless in the next. Getting worked up about a couple beloved models right now isn't going to do me a lot of good. Change is coming and its going to demand adaptation regardless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Philosfr said: The conspiracy reasons folks come up with for why certain masters leaving is funny. Can't it just be literally because of the storyline? In a year after M3E releases, there will be a new book. And in that book will be new models. There's nothing saying we can't have an undead Nicodem, a risen Lilith and whatever happens to Collodi come back for M3E Book 2. At least that's what I'm hoping the plan is. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandu Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Philosfr said: The conspiracy reasons folks come up with for why certain masters leaving is funny. Can't it just be literally because of the storyline? In a year after M3E releases, there will be a new book. And in that book will be new models. There's nothing saying we can't have an undead Nicodem, a risen Lilith and whatever happens to Collodi come back for M3E Book 2. At least that's what I'm hoping the plan is. Huh... Just what I had been thinking... On another note: Anyone else notice that the Multi faction Masters has been balanced out? Two factions where there are 3 Multi Faction Masters and the rest are all 2 Masters each -Brandu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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