Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Maniacal_cackle]

Interesting list! It looks a lot more doable to take it down, but I'm guessing it didn't happen anyway xD

Winston's healing was pretty crazy this matchup!

[Math Mathonwy]

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Ouch. Have they not been playing Malifaux long? Seems like a bit of an overreaction, especially taking Reva against a top-tier master. While she is much better than before, she and her keyword are still low-mid at best. 

I got the impression that he was a competitive player who was at his wit's end - this wasn't his first loss to Cadmus. But I don't know the guy or anything.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To be fair, IF Cadmus is as strong as it appears and it isnt nerfed now, the choices are basically put up with it, skip competitive play, or find a different game.

So it is potentially quite a reasonable reaction.

[Cedar]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

1 game in marching tournament

I had fun this game, though I didn't provide any challenge for my opponent. It was just pure luck that Plaag didn't score full 8 points. And damn you Winston, with all the healing you get from winning the duels  

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Cedar said:

I had fun this game, though I didn't provide any challenge for my opponent. It was just pure luck that Plaag didn't score full 8 points. And damn you Winston, with all the healing you get from winning the duels  

he stole all luck)) and was lucky enough not to die)

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Ouch. Have they not been playing Malifaux long? Seems like a bit of an overreaction, especially taking Reva against a top-tier master. While she is much better than before, she and her keyword are still low-mid at best. 

There was a guy that said he was going to do that, immediately after a game 

He's signed up and is playing in the new world series event 

So I think this isn't so much a fact but more using a comment made whilst the chap was reeling from a bad game as fact 

I mean, regardless it's still not a great thing for someone to say 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

There was a guy that said he was going to do that, immediately after a game 

He's signed up and is playing in the new world series event 

So I think this isn't so much a fact but more using a comment made whilst the chap was reeling from a bad game as fact 

I mean, regardless it's still not a great thing for someone to say 

i was upset to hear it, but what if he is right at some point-i think no one likes to lose games and have no chances to win

[belorey]

43 minutes ago, Plaag said:

i was upset to hear it, but what if he is right at some point-i think no one likes to lose games and have no chances to win

Agree with you, i don't mind loosing if i feel i had chances to win or if the oponent plays better than me. Even i don't really mind if i play better but i had bad luck with flips and lost.

But i don't really enjoy a game where the only thing i can do is watch how i am destroyed. Neither if i am the guy who is winning. Thats why i was so excited with Cadmus models (pretty amazing design) but i would wait before go into them, i don't wanna buy a crew nobody wanna play against. 

[Da Git]

I would actually really like to see Plaag face Cadmus. People always say the best way to learn how to counter a crew is to swap.

Also, just out of curiousity, how many imes have your opponents faced Cadmus? It's not really that uncommon to get crushed when facing masters for the first few times.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Da Git said:

I would actually really like to see Plaag face Cadmus. People always say the best way to learn how to counter a crew is to swap.

Also, just out of curiousity, how many imes have your opponents faced Cadmus? It's not really that uncommon to get crushed when facing masters for the first few times.

I think most of them range from about 3-5 times, some more. So a decent number.

I don't think the videos alone present a compelling case, but the rest of the discussion fills in the gap.

[Cedar]

17 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Also, just out of curiousity, how many imes have your opponents faced Cadmus? It's not really that uncommon to get crushed when facing masters for the first few times.

I had faced her 3 times previously - two with Ivan and one with Jedza. I won both games with Ivan and tied in Jedza game.

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

1 hour ago, Cedar said:

I had faced her 3 times previously - two with Ivan and one with Jedza. I won both games with Ivan and tied in Jedza game.

Oooo now there's a spicy bit of info, so although you lost this game you haven't had an issue toppling cadmus previously 

Maybe we should nerf @Plaag instead haha 😋

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Oooo now there's a spicy bit of info, so although you lost this game you haven't had an issue toppling cadmus previously 

Maybe we should nerf @Plaag instead haha 😋

no, im pretty balanced) go away)

[I'm a Teapot!]

ehmmm so explorers can win vs cadmus. what a relief... its not like ivan or jedza are far behind nexus... still way about the rest of the game tbh.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that it is important to remember that no one is claiming that Cadmus is unbeatable no matter the skill discrepancy between the players. The concern is that in high level play Cadmus will end up dominating with a crazy high win rate and be downright unfair in some strat and scheme pools.

[Armour]

44 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

The concern is that in high level play Cadmus will end up dominating with a crazy high win rate and be downright unfair in some strat and scheme pools.

An equal concern could be raised about low-to-mid-level play; once a few good tricks become well known (like FWC on your key pieces, optionally taking the emissary) I think Cadmus could dominate just as hard outside the competitive scene.  That sort of thing can really discourage casual players, especially if the community perception becomes "oh well, Cadmus is broken so I don't want to play against them/your wins don't count/only a powergamer plays them."

[Maogrim]

And I'd say that another concern is that Cadmus might scare away new and inexperienced players for good if they run into the spider wall, get smashed beyond belief and end up with the notion that the game is inbalanced and ultimately not worth their time if they can't beat certain masters with their favorite keyword that just got them into to game.

[LeperColony]

The issue I have with a lot of these "Cadmus is beatable" conjectures is that the mere fact that they're not invincible isn't a strong case for them being balanced.

ES mechanics, as a faction, are characterized by high efficiency and limited counter-play.  Cadmus embodies both of these, as does DUA.  That kind of dynamic is going to be strong in Malifaux, just because of the kind of game it is and what you're trying to achieve.  But what makes those two keywords really stand out is what they are able to do with the efficiency and lack of counter-play.

I agree with @Maniacal_cackle and @Adran that a single player's games, no matter how well played or how prolific, can itself definitively establish a keyword's power level.  However. what I do find noteworthy in this thread is that @Plaag is supplying all the information it should take to beat him.  He's showing exactly what he is going to take, exactly what he is going to do, and often the order in which he does it, and it's still working.

What's more, the people who are asserting either Cadmus is balanced, or only a little overtuned, or fundamentally the same as existing S-tiers, are much less eager to actually play games than the people on the other side of the issue.  While not dispositive, that is also not encouraging.

Of course, we all know perfect balance is impossible, and there are already above-the-curve models.  Is a Cadmus crew fundamentally different from the other S-tier options that already exist?  I'm not a top competitive player, so I can't really say.  But I do think it is another significant point that several of the top tier competitive players do seem to think so, and those who don't aren't lining up to take @Plaag on.

 

[admiralvorkraft]

13 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

ES mechanics, as a faction, are characterized by high efficiency and limited counter-play.  Cadmus embodies both of these, as does DUA.  That kind of dynamic is going to be strong in Malifaux, just because of the kind of game it is and what you're trying to achieve.  But what makes those two keywords really stand out is what they are able to do with the efficiency and lack of counter-play.

I highlighted the big one from my perspective. I've spent a while the past couple days trying to club together lists that approach the game in a variety of different ways that have play against Cadmus and everything I've got runs into a mechanical counter. 

Play the avoidance game? Sorry there's Nests and (the aptly named) Omnipresent Influence. Go in hard? Your models die to their own damage. Scalpel out specific models? Not with FWC and the Emissary around. Blast damage? melts away to Shielded and We Are Legion. Attrition? Not in the face of massive irreducible damage and good summoning. Aggressive scheming? Thanks for fueling my summon engine

I'd rework FWC - the discard a soulstone to cancel an attack ability should not be in the same model as the generate soulstones ability, because combos need to be breakable. Building in counter-play (counter-play not just counter-picking) should be a design concern. Change the Eyes and Ears summon to trigger off Web Markers or Nests in exchange for damage. Remove From the Shadows from the Nests and replace Ticks and Leeches with Venomous Strike at St 4. Either reduce the range on Omnipresent Influence to 6" make it 12, or change it to "When this model activates a second time in a turn..." Tweak the archivist; Cost 9, Ill-Omens +1.

That gives some counter-play by limiting the ability of the crew to reach out and touch you. It makes it more plausible to scalpel out individual pieces, and it mitigates the overwhelming tempo control of Last-First activations. All while keeping the feel of the crew (which I love) more or less intact. It also gives play to the Nightsilk Creeper (which is a super cool model) by making the lure aspect of the crew more important. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thing to note is that there are a LOT of powerful things in Explorer's Society (English Ivan, Jedza, etc). Yet almost everyone agrees Cadmus is the most noteworthy of everything.

You have to be pretty damn good to eclipse English Ivan...

[belorey]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You have to be pretty damn good to eclipse English Ivan...

I was talking the same with my Friends. How powerfull must be Cadmus that everybody forget about Ivan who can kill or summon a beast in your face. 

But you know? Thats how Ivan works, he is into shadows doing his stuff while nobody notices.

[trikk]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Another thing to note is that there are a LOT of powerful things in Explorer's Society (English Ivan, Jedza, etc). Yet almost everyone agrees Cadmus is the most noteworthy of everything.

You have to be pretty damn good to eclipse English Ivan...

Nests
Archivists
Both Ngaatoro
Mordrake
Emissary
Nexus

This is my golden list.
Nests should lose FtS and gain Herald and lose Wds
Archivist and Nexus should both lose Siphon Power
Archivist should have Ill Omens +1 and the attack should be enemy only
Mordrake -> insignificant
Emissary: change heal to shielded
Ngaatoro: both should lose something. They have damage, tankyness, lots of buffs, debuffing auras.


 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Nests
Archivists
Both Ngaatoro
Mordrake
Emissary
Nexus

This is my golden list.
Nests should lose FtS and gain Herald and lose Wds
Archivist and Nexus should both lose Siphon Power
Archivist should have Ill Omens +1 and the attack should be enemy only
Mordrake -> insignificant
Emissary: change heal to shielded
Ngaatoro: both should lose something. They have damage, tankyness, lots of buffs, debuffing auras.


 

emissary once per activation for aura, ngatoro lose bully, ivan-make something to make summon harder(he can declare trigger to summon when he like, this is wrong) and summoned models need not to be placed in opps face(same with dreamer)

[Cedar]

I think that in case of Ivan the Runic Siphon should either have a TN of something like 13/14 or that you cannot target the same model more than once per activation with it. Honestly I doubt the Wyrd changes how he summons models (ie. in base contact with enemy model).

[Maniacal_cackle]

44 minutes ago, Plaag said:

emissary once per activation for aura, ngatoro lose bully, ivan-make something to make summon harder(he can declare trigger to summon when he like, this is wrong) and summoned models need not to be placed in opps face(same with dreamer)

I'm not sure Ivan has gotten more than two useful summons per game against me so far, so I don't think it is quite "when he likes". He has to work quite hard for it come together (assuming the opponent is working hard to deny it).