When are you going to nerf Dashel

[trikk]

2 hours ago, Azahul said:

You know in all my games of Parker I have never once used Bandit Raid 🤣 The Convict Gunslinger is just as bad as Parker is, if you want to consider that stat line bad.

Yes. But better triggers. And if your master shoots like an 8SS minion, he doesn't shoot that well

[Maniacal_cackle]

 

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yes. But better triggers. And if your master shoots like an 8SS minion, he doesn't shoot that well

Well, it can actually be stat 7, so I'd say he can shoot pretty well.

It seems like Parker is designed to be a scheme marker manipulation crew with a side of shooting, similar to how Dashel was meant to be a scheme marker manipulation crew with a side of summoning. Turns out that it doesn't seem to work too well (and so Dashel got a deserved buff).

[Azahul]

To be fair, my general view is that Parker's role is that of resource generation and melee tank more than shooter. His attacks (if they land) generate additional Interact actions, which will convert into Fast for some Keyword models or points in general. With his crew generally having Run and Gun to begin with, it usually feels like a crew filled with 4-5 AP models (fast, can move and shoot as one action, occasionally getting extra Interacts). I've usually got him wearing a Pretty Little Bonnet, so he can Interact himself after the first hit lands to bump up his Stat, but really he's in there to get card draw from Wanted Criminal and Soulstones from Cashing Out. So his attacks, even when they're not doing that much damage-wise, are usually giving me three different resources to play with. I'll usually toss him into a model I don't want to have to deal with using the rest of my crew and just milk that model for resources all game, and if he ever gets a kill that's pure bonus. Had games where all he did was rifle through Lord Chompy Bits's (or whatever equivalent big beater my opponent has) pockets for four rounds and then Repositioned out of combat on the fifth and ran off to get me a couple of extra scheme markers on the board. The fact that he doesn't need high cards to do that means you can conserve resources for elsewhere.

 

We're well off topic now though  

[Yore Huckleberry]

Here's the full results for Guild in Nov/December vassal MWS events. Dashel literally won ONLY the game in question in this post in December, and went 2-8-1 overall. I don't mean that as a "haha!" moment to the OP or anything; I'm mostly just worried that the devs might read this and decide to raise the price on executioners or something without referencing actual play numbers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Here's the full results for Guild in Nov/December vassal MWS events. Dashel literally won ONLY the game in question in this post in December, and went 2-8-1 overall. I don't mean that as a "haha!" moment to the OP or anything; I'm mostly just worried that the devs might read this and decide to raise the price on executioners or something without referencing actual play numbers.

Very useful to know!

Was that a variety of players, or two people losing 8 times?

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Very useful to know!

Was that a variety of players, or two people losing 8 times?

A quick look at the spreadsheet (where I can see 6 Dashel games in December) shows that 1 player lost all 3 december games with Dashel, but the other 3 games were 3 different players, and I think that when I look at November, the loses were mainly people that played Dashel in December as well, so 5 of those 8 losses are the same person. 

So 5 people used Dashel, 

they had the following Dashel Records (overall record over the 2 months))

0-5    (0-6)

2-1   (4-2)

0-1 (2-1)

0-1 (1-2)

0-0-1  (2-0-1)

So whilst the bulk of the loses were due to 1 player, who  lost all their games, on the whole I would say that Dashel underperformed in the hands of the other players (a loss and a draw on 2 players that both won their other 2 games for example suggests that they are good players) 

Of course this is a really small subset of results, and I'm not taking into account opponents and rounds, but Dashel appears to be either comparable or under performing when compared to other games taken by the same players. 

[4thstringer]

18 hours ago, Adran said:

A quick look at the spreadsheet (where I can see 6 Dashel games in December) shows that 1 player lost all 3 december games with Dashel, but the other 3 games were 3 different players, and I think that when I look at November, the loses were mainly people that played Dashel in December as well, so 5 of those 8 losses are the same person. 

So 5 people used Dashel, 

they had the following Dashel Records (overall record over the 2 months))

0-5    (0-6)

2-1   (4-2)

0-1 (2-1)

0-1 (1-2)

0-0-1  (2-0-1)

So whilst the bulk of the loses were due to 1 player, who  lost all their games, on the whole I would say that Dashel underperformed in the hands of the other players (a loss and a draw on 2 players that both won their other 2 games for example suggests that they are good players) 

Of course this is a really small subset of results, and I'm not taking into account opponents and rounds, but Dashel appears to be either comparable or under performing when compared to other games taken by the same players. 

I wanna hear from the guy that lost 5 with dash.

[Yore Huckleberry]

On 12/22/2020 at 2:41 AM, Adran said:

Of course this is a really small subset of results, and I'm not taking into account opponents and rounds, but Dashel appears to be either comparable or under performing when compared to other games taken by the same players. 

Yeah, Kyle B is a frequent podium player in the central US (of Schemes and Stones fame) and was planning to switch to Guild. He lost games with Hoffman (which he knows well as a general arcanist player), but also took a Dashel loss. So that's an inexperienced pilot, but also someone who should know how to handle a purported "s-tier" master.

Landon S took 4th overall in his December tournament with a 2W/1L/0D record and a +8 diff ... but he lost with Dashel round 2.

Dmitry took 5th overall in his December tournament with a 2/1/0 record and a +5 diff ... but his Dashel win was only 4/3 vs Yan Lo in round one. Dmitry also accounts for the other Dashel win across the two months, which was a 7-2 stomping of Molly in round 2 of Fauxvember ... but he also LOST with Dashel in round 1, 6-3 vs Misaki, so he was playing in the bottom half round 2, which could be described as "submarining."

I'd also point out that half of those losses are in rounds 2-3 across various players, which should mean that player skill has begun to stabilize match-balance (even if one of the players went 0-3 twice over). Dashel's wins were by, iirc,

Anyway, it really IS a small data set, but the idea that Dashel is an insta-win button or that there's one net-deckable list that is so efficient it can't be overcome are overstatements.

[trikk]

52 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Yeah, Kyle B is a frequent podium player in the central US (of Schemes and Stones fame) and was planning to switch to Guild. He lost games with Hoffman (which he knows well as a general arcanist player), but also took a Dashel loss. So that's an inexperienced pilot, but also someone who should know how to handle a purported "s-tier" master.

Landon S took 4th overall in his December tournament with a 2W/1L/0D record and a +8 diff ... but he lost with Dashel round 2.

Dmitry took 5th overall in his December tournament with a 2/1/0 record and a +5 diff ... but his Dashel win was only 4/3 vs Yan Lo in round one. Dmitry also accounts for the other Dashel win across the two months, which was a 7-2 stomping of Molly in round 2 of Fauxvember ... but he also LOST with Dashel in round 1, 6-3 vs Misaki, so he was playing in the bottom half round 2, which could be described as "submarining."

I'd also point out that half of those losses are in rounds 2-3 across various players, which should mean that player skill has begun to stabilize match-balance (even if one of the players went 0-3 twice over). Dashel's wins were by, iirc,

Anyway, it really IS a small data set, but the idea that Dashel is an insta-win button or that there's one net-deckable list that is so efficient it can't be overcome are overstatements.

Guild is just Malifaux Dark Souls  

[belorey]

I would change this topic to "how can you protect Dashel's totem" or give to the keyword an alternative to drop an enemie scheme marker.

Couse if we are fair, you only need to kill the totem and you got half of the match.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, belorey said:

I would change this topic to "how can you protect Dashel's totem" or give to the keyword an alternative to drop an enemie scheme marker.

Couse if we are fair, you only need to kill the totem and you got half of the match.

Well, most of the keyword has the 'drop it' trigger, which feels about right for a backup plan (not that I know the keyword very well).

EDIT: Although Drop It seems a bit wonkily designed, since it drops in base contact and then the model can just pick it up as soon as they activate... Wish it created the scheme marker within 1 inch or something.

[Higgybeans]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:41 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, most of the keyword has the 'drop it' trigger, which feels about right for a backup plan (not that I know the keyword very well).

EDIT: Although Drop It seems a bit wonkily designed, since it drops in base contact and then the model can just pick it up as soon as they activate... Wish it created the scheme marker within 1 inch or something.

I thought the Drop It trigger was deisgned to be hit on melee attacks? So you charge them and they drop a scheme marker and are then engaged so they can't remove it?

[Corwin]

2 hours ago, Higgybeans said:

I thought the Drop It trigger was deisgned to be hit on melee attacks? So you charge them and they drop a scheme marker and are then engaged so they can't remove it?

All of the Drop it triggers on guild are on projectile attacks except the mounted guard. With the pursue ability it would make since to do it to a model who has already activated. Regardless it kind of works like slow where they can use an AP to get rid of it or risk having an executioner pop up next to them.

[Zebo]

Drop It is also the only source of enemy scheme markers for Bandits, who also relies on them but have no safe/sure/easy form to succeed on it. 

I think it should be something like "you force the target to drop an enemy scheme marker anywhere within x inches"

Maybe 1" Or 2", but you choose where, to not make easy to your opponent to take advantage of it. Specially since the crews that has those triggers needs them. 

[touchdown]

I don't think it changes the calculus but technically Bandit also has Highway Robbery.

[Zebo]

Yes, Parker Barrows has it. And no one else. 

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, Parker Barrows has it. And no one else. 

Yes, but it is in bandits and is virtually guaranteed if that's what you need. 

Benny can also effectively turn a friendly scheme marker into an enemy one.

Prospectors can also generate enemy scheme markers, but not reliably.  

This doesn't change the argument over drop it, but 

On 12/30/2020 at 7:30 PM, Zebo said:

Drop It is also the only source of enemy scheme markers for Bandits, who also relies on them but have no safe/sure/easy form to succeed on it. 

Is just not true. 

[DuBlanck]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:37 PM, Corwin said:

With the pursue ability it would make since to do it to a model who has already activated. Regardless it kind of works like slow where they can use an AP to get rid of it or risk having an executioner pop up next to them.

Dashel can shoot (St6/7) and stone for an enemy to drop an Enemy Scheme Marker and then immediately summon off it. The various other sources give added options.

I was hoping to try using that ilk of aggressive ESM generation to enable super-safe Dispatcher (as a back-up ESM only) play, but I haven't seen a table in most of a year, so who knows.

Is hitting the Drop It Trigger too unreliable for competitive folks' tastes or something?

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Is hitting the Drop It Trigger too unreliable for competitive folks' tastes or something?

Yes because the enemy can put it outside your summon range. You also likely have to spend 2 SS to summon this way and 2 high cards to ensure the hit and the summon

[Zebo]

Why should you have to spend 2ss? You are already giving as a fact that you don't have high rams or tomes in hand? 

Because if you have 2 high cards, the chance that at least one of them be a tome OR a ram is quite high, so you should only need one ss. 

Although you can make things look worse by always choosing the worst chances to happen. 

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Why should you have to spend 2ss? You are already giving as a fact that you don't have high rams or tomes in hand? 

Because if you have 2 high cards, the chance that at least one of them be a tome OR a ram is quite high, so you should only need one ss. 

Although you can make things look worse by always choosing the worst chances to happen. 

So you need 2 high cards and 1 stone. Fair? You still have to be within <5" of the enemy model.

[Adran]

22 minutes ago, trikk said:

So you need 2 high cards and 1 stone. Fair? You still have to be within <5" of the enemy model.

Yes there are these downsides.  I'd say 7" of an enemy rather than 5. The range is 8, the stat is 6. You don't actually have to use an enemy scheme marker, it just makes the action more efficient. If your summoning a 7 ss or cheaper, you can do if with just a high card ( plus stone).  It's only for the executioner or the mounted guard that you need to jump through those hoops. ( the others can, but then you're not needing 2 high cards just 1 high card and a medium card. )

And this always bypasses that the opponent might have dropped a scheme marker, or the advantage that they had to rule out certain schemes because you can remove their markers from 8" away. 

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

You still have to be within <5" of the enemy model

Why? Dashell can summon up to 8", so he only needs to be completely within 8".

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Why? Dashell can summon up to 8", so he only needs to be completely within 8".

The enemy can place the scheme marker behind them. So add a base size.  I thought the Summons is 6" so it's has to be a little less than 7" for a 30mm

[Adran]

Just now, trikk said:

The enemy can place the scheme marker behind them. So add a base size. 

Yes but most bases are 30 mm which is only just over 1". The marker has to be visible to the model so larger bases have fewer places to put it " behind" them. ( good model positioning and you can force them to drop a marker you can use even if they are 9" away).