5 Guild models that need improvement

[trikk]

So since most of us are locked in social distancing/quarantine and we recently got a pretty cool errata, what are the models that you think require an errata in Guild (both underpowered and overpowered):

For me the top 5 are:
 

1. Thalarian Queller (those guys definitely need something)
2. Guard Patrol (give them a 5th HP)
3. Pistoleros (They have a weak damage track, weak synergy, they have reckless but with 4 wds they will get one shot after they use it)
4. Orderlies (give them the Focus trigger on heal?)
5. Death Marshal Recruiters (they definitely don't feel like 8SS considering they don't really work in their crew that much)

[Qracy]

Agree with 4 out of 5

 

Instead of the Guard Patrol, which seems fine to me for a 4 SS model, I would like to see the Field Reporters get a , e.g. Hidden Blade, Sharp Hairpin or at least Frantic Flailing.

 

My Ranking would be:

1. Thalarian Queller

2. Field Reporter

3. Death Marshall Recruiter

4. Pistoleros

5. Orderlies

[trikk]

22 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Agree with 4 out of 5

 

Instead of the Guard Patrol, which seems fine to me for a 4 SS model, I would like to see the Field Reporters get a , e.g. Hidden Blade, Sharp Hairpin or at least Frantic Flailing.

 

My Ranking would be:

1. Thalarian Queller

2. Field Reporter

3. Death Marshall Recruiter

4. Pistoleros

5. Orderlies

I'd rather they get Don't Mind me to be honest

[KingJocko]

I agree with a lot of the suggestions already. Here's my 4 (couldn't think of a 5th):

1. Thalaran Queller - Is trying to fill the role of a Manipulator and struggling to do so. I don't think it's bad, because it has good stats and its Tactical Actions don't require a flip making it very efficient, but it relies on taking Burning off the enemy and doesn't put much back on the enemy. I think this makes them feel counter intuitive when every other model in the keyword is stacking Burning on enemies. It's hard to come up with a small fix for these guys without doing a complete overhaul, so I'll leave it at they need something, but I don't know what.

2. Orderlies - These guys want to be Tar Pit/Support models, but aren't pushed far enough to make them worth it. Despite it being an Asylum ability, I'd take away Research Specimens since their low range and low damage track will almost never see these guys killing things and replace it with Quick Cure instead. Then I'd either bake in a mask on Necrotic Injection or give Emergency Surgery the Quick Reflexes, Focused Attention, or Under Pressure trigger. I think adding the mask is the better option as increasing their healing potency would step on the toes of the Steward.

3. Guild Patrol - They sit in the "good for summon, bad for hire" category and I don't think that's a good place for a model. I think the 1 extra health is a solid addition since 4 health on a model with Take The Hit and no means of mitigating damage isn't the best setup for a damage sponge. I also think they could use the Arrest Order trigger on their melee attack as well to make them good for early activations to hopefully get Adversary on your enemies so that your better models can take advantage of it and Pursue later in the turn.

4. Witchling Stalker - These guys also sit at the "good for summon, bad for hire" spot for similar reasons as the Patrol. I think they're fine mobility and damage wise, but at 5 health and no damage mitigation they'll often explode before getting where they need to go. I could see them either getting their health bumped up to 6 or reducing their Size to 1 so they can more easily hide out of enemy LoS.

[Irritated Walrus]

One of the issues with our faction is identity. In 2e we hit hard and could take a punch. In 3e we don’t hit harder than anyone else and seem to go down quicker than a lot of other factions. 
 

Raising min damage or making things more survivable would help. 
 

Quellers desperately need gun fighter or a melee attack. Guard Patrol are fine. Orderlies should be lowered by a stone. I’m not really seeing the issue with DMRs other than their damage output being too low. Field reporters need a melee. Pistoleros need more as well. 

[Da Git]

I've only really played Witch Hunters, so for me the big ones are Quellers & Stalkers. Another problem is that Witch Hunters don't provide what Sonnia desperately needs, to Damage and mobility so she doesn't have to walk. That's why basically every list has the Rider and Steward in it. Therefore, I'd try to fix these models by giving them something along these lines so Witch Hunters can stick more in key word.

Witchling Stlakers also have the problem of having little reason to hire them. Therefore I'd give them Follow My Path, so they can push another model 2" for a Bonus action. It's not a huge push but it's something and can get Sonnia out of engagement. These guys have always been described as like sniffer dogs in the fluff, leading their master to the target, so this really fits their fluff.

Someone else ages ago had (IMO) a really good idea of giving Witchling Stalkers an ability Light The Way: this model gains + to attack actions if the target doesn't have the Burning condition. Again making them better hires over just incidently summoning them if you can't get a Thrall.

For Quellers, I really thing they need a major re-think. Flaming Brand is just bad, I wouldn't want to use the Queller first as then my opponent has another chance to kill or run away from the somewhat squishy Witchlings that could take advantage of it. Also, if they've got 3 Burning, they're either almost dead, or a Handler's used Witchfire, which compounds the activation order issue... Instead give them something like their old Enchant weapon action, something like a short 3" range, Ca 6 Tn10 to give the model a to attack and damage on their next attack with the Knock Aside Trigger and the Swift Reflexes Trigger.

Another think, drop Barrier to the Other World (anti-summon is for Marshals!) for Gravity Well as this is much less niche and more powerful. Give them Gunfighter and build in the Crow for Arcane Staff (this really gives them a solid niche as the crew is very card hungry).

These changes might be too much, but they're my ideas for giving the keyword what they need without having to go half versatile/OOK.

[Morgan Vening]

On 4/5/2020 at 8:11 AM, KingJocko said:

3. Guild Patrol - They sit in the "good for summon, bad for hire" category and I don't think that's a good place for a model. I think the 1 extra health is a solid addition since 4 health on a model with Take The Hit and no means of mitigating damage isn't the best setup for a damage sponge. I also think they could use the Arrest Order trigger on their melee attack as well to make them good for early activations to hopefully get Adversary on your enemies so that your better models can take advantage of it and Pursue later in the turn.

I was thinking something that boosts their bodyguarding.

Something that complements Take the Hit. Either a temporary H2K (only applicable when not the original target), or a card draw when Taking the Hit (so it cycles rather than card drains), or both (but have the card draw contingent on the model surviving the hit if it's too good).

If it makes them too good as Summons, have it turn off that ability if the model has a Summon Upgrade. Either you can do this individually in the text of the Ability, or use it for several models by making it a parentheses ability like "Authority (Best you Got?)" (like Mantra or Opportunist), and have the Summons Upgrade say it loses any "Authority" abilities. 

[GM_loke]

I've not played any of these models yet, but it's fun to play designer. 

Thalarian Queller

The Flaming Brand is a good idea but maybe too convoluted to pull off for too little gain? I would much rather have one of their M2E abilities back, like the ability to hand out the "Enchanted Weapons" buff that makes Melee attacks irreducible. That would be similar to "Adversary" in intent and more aligned with their fluff.  The range could be short to keep it balanced. 

Field Reporter

Yeah, "Don't mind me" would seem perfect here and give them a unique role in Guild . 

Pistoleros

I think giving them H2K or Demise Expendable would be two different ways to get more out of this model while still preserving the original intent. 

Orderlies

These are supposed to be fast tarpits. Manipulative and/or Deadly Pursuit would fit well I think and make them way more useful. 

[Da Git]

8 hours ago, GM_loke said:

The Flaming Brand is a good idea but maybe too convoluted to pull off for too little gain? I would much rather have one of their M2E abilities back, like the ability to hand out the "Enchanted Weapons" buff that makes Melee attacks irreducible. That would be similar to "Adversary" in intent and more aligned with their fluff.  The range could be short to keep it balanced. 

This was tried in the Beta, but it was proven too good. I remember people giving it to Lady J, but even if it were Witch Hunters only, imagine giving both Thralls irreducible with their 3/5/7 (possibly 4/6/8 with another ram) damage tracks... Brutal!

Definitely agree they need something though...

[GM_loke]

8 hours ago, Da Git said:

This was tried in the Beta, but it was proven too good. I remember people giving it to Lady J, but even if it were Witch Hunters only, imagine giving both Thralls irreducible with their 3/5/7 (possibly 4/6/8 with another ram) damage tracks... Brutal!

Definitely agree they need something though...

Ah, didn't know it was tried in the beta. I agree it is probably broken with some of our hard hitting models but that could be fixable with high TN's or Discards perhaps? IDK
I haven't played them yet myself but will put them on the table soon is the plan. 

[RisingPhoenix]

As an outside observer, how do you limit yourself to five?

Wouldn't it be easier and more helpful to list the top 5 crews that need improvement?  

[wizuriel]

From a theme point of view Death Marshal Recruiters should be versatile.

Would also give them creep along.

 

Agree that:

Orderlies

Stalkers

Quellers

Reporters

Need help

[Alerteddonkey42]

So far what I'm getting out of this is that all of Guild's cheap minions need a buff. They just don't serve their roles well. 

[ShinChan]

Death Marshall Recruiters. I can't see why would I bring one of them with Lady Justice, except against crews that work with the burying mechanic, and for that purpose, the Jury is way better.

Maybe they're not a top priority, but again, another miniature with Final Repose, but that gets benefits if there are corpse markers in play.

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Death Marshall Recruiters. I can't see why would I bring one of them with Lady Justice, except against crews that work with the burying mechanic, and for that purpose, the Jury is way better.

Maybe they're not a top priority, but again, another miniature with Final Repose, but that gets benefits if there are corpse markers in play.

I don't know about with LJ, but a 2xDMR, 2xguard patrol can be a really nice and frustrating start to a gunline.

 

[le_wahou]

3 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I don't know about with LJ, but a 2xDMR, 2xguard patrol can be a really nice and frustrating start to a gunline.

 

Especially against teams that go for kills on your key models turn 1

[4thstringer]

I actually used a dmr tonight in a game against Mei.  With 2 exorcists and a Pathfinder to protect, he was pretty useful.  

You have to use him in situations that that you can use a stable shooting platform.  If you need to spread out or chase down certain models, he is going to be less useful.

[Deeds]

The DM Recriuters work good in an Dashel Crew xD.

[Meliondor]

Exactly this. I see him as 9 point model for Dashel Guard spam 😉

[beergod]

the big issue with guild currently is that Dashel and Hoffman can go from being super good to off the rails with to many changes . 

 

[Alerteddonkey42]

8 hours ago, beergod said:

the big issue with guild currently is that Dashel and Hoffman can go from being super good to off the rails with to many changes . 

 

Yeah, I already see people talking about Daschel being too good now. Hoffman is also interesting because however good he gets in Guild he will probably be better in Arcanists (arcane reservoir and some pretty good versatiles). Much of the rest of Guild does need the help though. 

[trikk]

I don't think Hoffman is THAT good. I think the Dispatcher buff was needed but the card draw wasn't necessary. 

[eddy]

Dashel isn't too op in any way. I think guild problem is that we compare masters insiede our faction an we end "balanced". He is A tier master now but they still lot of much stronger masters in other fractions. Thats exacly why Guild is worst faction now...

[trikk]

I played a few Guild masters versus other masters and I have to say I don't feel like we're that far behind. I played Nellie, Lucius, Hoffman mostly, but I`m planning on testing more next week

[Cleezy]

I am only going to name one, Santiago, I enjoy Santiago's lore and the idea behind him but he doesn't translate to that on his card. The majority of him is fine - solid abilities, so so stat line, good front of card except for one major factor. His wounds/lack of defensive tech to be the model he should be.

Thematically Santiago is the family bullet sponge, he goes in, soaks up damage and gets better except his df 5 and 8 wounds make him an absolute liability. Particularly because of the prevalence of focus in this edition. He is a bully victim as any good beater in the game should crush him in an activation.

I think he needs an additional wound at least and HTW (or HTK) in all honesty.