Alerteddonkey42

Anyone have any suggestions for using Zipp 2 since this? Right now, I just see Zipp 2 as a way to take an outcast all-star beater (Mad dog, Arik, Rusty, etc…) and give them extra mobility and card support while getting out some damage and distracted. Anyone have any other ways they’ve been playing him?

I have similar thoughts. Not sure what drove them to choose what they did. Barbaros does more now which is nice and the additional keyword is some fun foreshadowing, but he didn't really need changes. I like the Drachen trooper change to give Outcasts another option for removing markers. I still don't like winged plague. I think they'll see a bit more play for a time just to try them out and then people will stop taking them again. Their problem is that they are either 4ss just to maybe get out some blight (which is an expensive price to pay to just throw them away) or they are mediocre schemers. The best cheap schemers can often move twice (or once then a movement based bonus) and then place a marker or interact (or they jump across the board and interact like crooligans which are also 4 ss). They still die to a stiff breeze.

I see the difference in what we are anticipating within a game now. I find it rare that players put out unsupported attacks especially in melee against anything. A lot of non-beater models want to avoid melee since it limits your options. If I see a random, unsupported attack (from “spare” ap) it is usually ranged. Beater models that want to be in melee are where your opponent throws their support/willingness to cheat. My argument is that you’re not changing your opponent's behavior (at least in my experience), that is just how the game is played. I don’t value the ability because if the opponent makes a run at any model they want dead (not just bishop), they are going to support it and this system favors the attacker in a lot of ways (attacker wins ties, higher average attack stats, etc). Defensive abilities that reduce damage or make a model harder to hit complicate the math of killing it. Cage fighter does not. The concept of training an opponent can work if you regularly play the same person, but isn't going to work in a tournament setting (you travel or some opponents travel to your event). Im glad some people are getting value out of Bishop and the cage fighter trigger.

The onslaught trigger comparison doesn’t do much for the cage fighter argument. Onslaught isn’t that bad against armored targets (plink them down, but armor piercing can also be used), Hinamatsu is a henchman (stone for suits and damage reduction), better defensive tech in armor too (stones and armor together make Hina really tanky), a built in plus flip to better find suits and high cards, good mobility with mv 6 and rush (still betting multiple attacks after a walk charge with flurry and onslaught), and another trigger to take (the previously mentioned armor piercing). If we are saying that cage fighter deters attacks, then it should be compared to other defensive tech. I do think some bad experiences have really affected your outlook of the potential this ability has. This isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think this outlook and the results will hold true in every meta. I’m interested in the estimates of damage of 8-10 over a game. I would anticipate 1 (max 2) hits back a game if your opponent is playing well and you’re saving cards to try this. The card commitment for this is intensive in a keyword that, again, has other card hungry models and little card draw.

Completely agree with this. The opponent needs a high card with a specific suit for Bishop. I just need any high card and I win ties as the attacker. Using the red joker to get off cage fighter seems like the low end of the potential uses for the red joker. Yeah, it makes throwing low stat melee attacks that I don’t plan to cheat a bad proposition, but I wasn’t going to do that anyway (I usually don’t want my schemers walking into melee to throw out a random attack).

I feel like I’ve seen people talk about this before, but just giving them Hard to Kill would do a lot. They are hearty frontier folk so it is in theme, it synergizes really well with the heals you see in keyword (it could even make the survivalist ability mean something since they could have a chance to heal up), and it has internal synergy with their field medic trigger (on themselves or another frontiersman).

I keep looking at him after talking about it in this topic and I still think he needs something. His lack of defensive tech makes it pretty easy for a beater to kill him in one activation, his melee ranged means he gets tarpitted easily, and he’s already in a relatively fragile keyword where your high cards are generally going to other models (mostly the viks). I’m usually pretty happy to see him on the other side of the table because I can pretty much guarantee putting the opponent 9ss down. At the very least, he needs something because the Viks need more crew building options (I’d like it if he was made to be on par with the bar for 9ss enforcers, Archie )

The things I listed as getting nerfed aren’t what I want, they are what I anticipate or could see them doing. I even said that I don’t think Mad Dog needs a nerf, but he gets complaints. I also don’t see weakening Hamelin as necessary, but like I said in my previous post, it receives complaints. Honestly though, a cap at 5 isn’t a big deal for him. What @Azahulsaid does make sense though. There is more uncapped damage in the game now, so it’s not so much of an outlier anymore. Taelor just needs more to do. A lot of the “good” models in her price range have pseudo 3 ap. This said, I have used her for her ruthless before in keyword so at least she has a place currently. I'm glad people are getting use out of Bishop. My problem with him has always been his lack of defensive tech. He can go down quite quickly which feels bad at that cost. I suppose that just means I need to be more careful so try his positioning.

Winged Plague and Desperate Mercs getting some love would be nice. I’d like to see the desolation engine improved as well. I’m not sure if Abominations themselves need any improvement since summoning them is more prevalent. I feel like Mad Dog may get some kind of nerf even though I don’t really think he is a problem. He gets a lot of complaints but he is a 10ss model. He should be relatively strong. Some underperforming enforcers that I’d like to see improved are Johan, Lazarus, and Bishop. I’d also personally like to see the Drachen trooper buffed! For henchmen, I’d like to see some kind of buff to Taelor. For nerfs, I’d expect something to be done about the Tara kidnapping. I could see them capping bleeding disease at 5 damage for consistency and because it does get complained about every now and then.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Hamelin1's lure can put out three blight in a single action at the same range with the same stat. There is higher variance in the amount of blight, but you can set up to get the high end pretty easily. The bonus action on Hamelin1 can also put out a ton of blight before a final bleeding disease. I guess, there is a higher variance in Hamelin1's blight output than Hamelin2's, but also potential for a higher top end. The explosion of rats on Hamelin1 doesn't allow for you to resist and puts out blight (cheap way to get card draw too). I don't see either Hamelin as needing to cluster up really. Hamelin1 has a better defense stat and I like his aura (coughing fit) for defense better than Hamelin2's. Hamelin1 poses a greater threat to masters (lure can target them, obey cannot), whereas Hamelin2 can make opponents scared to bring certain beaters, slow models, or models that can blow up their own with an action. Hamelin2 has better scheming shenanigans. This can influence your opponent's crew selection, but not as drastically as some other titles. Generally, Hamelin1 for killing heavy (especially assassinate) and Hamelin2 for more scheme heavy (in my opinion). I do still think that they should have made the titles feel less similar in terms of play. They both still play as control masters while many other titles move masters into completely different categories.

Hey! I should have seen this topic sooner. I’m a Malifaux player in Stillwater and there are actually a few people in Tulsa that are interested in trying the game. I’ll send you an invite to an OK war gamers group.

Wait so you’re cutting the high end but not the low end because you think the low end has been raised. This is an assumption about the results before the data is analyzed. So what you’re attempting to analyze is the win rate (present win rate vs past for the same players?) but you’ve already skewed your data based on what you think you’ll find. Just from a methodological standpoint this doesn’t make sense. It would be more accurate to model the data with player as a random variable on your model and keep all the data.

I appreciate a lot of the changes made (especially with focus) but the changes to Guild seem lackluster. I don't know. I guess I was expecting more. Maybe this errata wasn't focused on bringing things up as much as nerfs and big fixes. Guild changes just seems like an afterthought and I wanted to see what the community thought. I also find it a bit funny that the Guild changes both times have been nerfs to the popularly used models in Guild (Rider then Phiona) instead of addressing larger faction problems. I suppose nerfs to other factions are buffs for Guild.

I don't think Outcasts came out too bad. Leve took a bit of a harder hit than expected (nerf to necropunks hits his keyword as well) but the 6 on melee is nice. I do like the scavenger getting "unexpected explosion" giving Outcasts a way to remove underbrush and whatnot. I'm surprised that Midnight Stalker was given a nerf. I'm in the meh category for Wanted Criminal, but it may be better than my first reading makes me think. Talos may do something now. Those are the knee-jerk reactions from me!

I think that the Malifaux community has a tendency to read waaaaaayyy too far into singular results and small data sets. In the end, it is both and more. The meta also plays a role along with tournament size. There is chance involved as well. Will you have an easier time winning with a stronger crew? Yes. Can you only win with a hyper-competitive crew? No. Does winning with a crew make that the best crew in the faction? No. I personally don't see the list here as competitive, but I'm not well versed in its use and play in a different meta. If the list works for a player then I'm happy for them. However, I don't see this list as the "cure" to Guild's current woes.

Hey! I'm the Outcast player that is regularly the opponent of OP. I figured I'd chime in with a few details to help with advice giving (though, I think you all are already doing a great job with advice!). The Carver is good against crew that load up focus, but I don't find myself doing that a ton in our games. Sure, I'll take a focus here or there, but the ability of Pandora's crew to strip the focus for effects. I play a mobility game with Arik and Schill since they can just charge out of combat. It's hard to stop them from completing schemes and strats. Von Schill allows you to reposition your crew really quickly with rocket boots and the trigger to use them immediately. That being said, I'm not against taking attacks with them. I just may not play them as "aggro" as other players I suppose. Just a play style difference. Lack of mobility in the Pandora crew may be part of the issue with keeping up with the Freikorps. I was wondering if OP should be bringing more stones to games. Pandora's models seem pretty fragile. I thought stones could help. A side not is that Schill and Hannah have stat 7 wp. That seems to help a lot. The armor on Freikorps also seems to be a huge problem for the Pandora crew. That plus the amount of healing in the crew means my models don't really go down. Let me know if there is any other info I can give to help out! Thanks everyone!

Lol. I guess I didn't realize your whole post was a joke. Sorry that I had a response? Glad to see you didn't have a rebuttal and we are in agreement though.

I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn with some Bayou thrown in. Not as. But you are right. A lot of our models look pretty bad when compared against those factions.

Theoretically, it could. However, this assumes that lack of answers to different problems is equivalent across factions (is lack of armor penetration models equivalent to lower stats? Hard to say. Also, ressers have lower DF and WP but higher wounds. So, it's not all stats). This is also complicated by factions that answer everything like 10T (or Arcanists? I get your joke but I'm actually not sure if they lack anything in particular. I don't play them enough). While I agree that every faction shouldn't have equal access to every type of tech, I will also say that access to counter-tech (or lack of access) is not currently balanced across factions. Of course, this leads to the whole topic about whether there is true balance and if we should attempt to strive for it. I guess I'm in the camp that we should always strive for better balance. This all being said, I still believe that Malifaux is a very balanced game (much more so than some others), there is just some noticeable imbalance.

I still don't think a 1/2/3 heal as a normal action on a shooting master is worth it. There aren't even triggers one it. The ability is bad by support master standards. I feel like I have to have weird experiences compared to most players. I play against a lot of 10T and Neverborn (some Bayou as well). All the beaters I see are super mobile. Most beaters worth their salt (that I see in games) can do 3 min 3 attacks (it's actually one of the problems I have with Guild right now. Most of our expensive beaters aren't mobile and many don't even get 3 ap worth of attacks in a turn). I like pathfinders. I enjoyed them in 2e. These minions really aren't resilient though. The lack of resilience in the crew means placement with "Home on the Range" is a critical skill. Kind of like "from the shadows" you can just get your models in a position that makes it easier for them to be killed. A lot of models get rated on these types of situations for some reason.

I don't think it's about every faction having the same abilities. It's more about every faction should have access to tech picks. If a faction can't do anything against a certain master, it makes facing that master (or faction as a whole) more one sided. I like list building being part of the strategy of the game (as opposed to others where you just smash the same list every time) but I don't think it should decide the game.

Right? I have trouble seeing them as worse than Guild. I mean, just compare the upgrades for a start... Edit: I've also seen it argued that they are secretly one of the strongest (even on some podcasts I've heard them referred to as at least in the top 3).

Some could do it in 1 hit with focus. Just offhand I would have no trouble getting hannah to do it (I've been playing Freikorps lately) and Friekorp aren't even the most efficient beaters. Plus with rocket boots she wouldn't even really be gone from the game. This argument, however, also assumes that there is nothing to do where the rough rider is and you can just give up a flank once they die (banking on the opponent "wasting" ap after killing the rough rider). Most pools will have something to do. It's also assuming that the opponent wants their model to go back to the same place it were. Beaters or bruisers with leap will easily kill them and still be relevant the next turn. Any sniper model can kill them in 2 shots (hans can do it in 1). I guess it depends on the meta you're in, how much your opponents spam focus, and if you opponents take efficient beaters. You're right in that it won't usually die to 1 hit, but at 7 ss I would like it to take more than 2 hits. I also disagree with the argument that if someone goes after them then they won't contribute to the rest of the game. Their mobility and range is probably their biggest defense, but I'm not overly impressed. The healing isn't great as you need a suit on a minion in a crew that can be quite card starved. Reichart and Basse have heals, but they are pretty inefficient and cost an ap (and don't have triggers). I could be wrong though. Haven't gotten them on the table. My comments, like many in this thread, are a hot take.

I will never understand why Wyrd wants survivalist to be a thing in this crew. Just like with the frontiersman, you need to be able to survive a round of attacks to be able to make any use of survivalist. With no other defensive tech, they won't. There are a lot of mobile beaters and bruisers that could easily off these in one activation and not spend the whole game doing it. If you want dust clouds to keep then alive, you have a whole crew relying on that and you can't activate all of them before the opponent gets to go. Idk. Right now I'm finding it hilarious that the explorer master who is dual faction with Guild seems to be the worst of the explorers (we have a relatively small sample size, but still).

Interesting. I see flesh constructs as one of the most efficient models in the crew. Decent damage output, relatively tanky, great mobility. I'll actually forgo Rafkin usually (really squishy and doesn't add a lot after poison stacking turn 1). I'm not even that fond of Sebastian. The mobility provided by 2 Kentauroi and 1-2 flesh constructs can make it difficult for opponents to react to. The Kentauroi ferry McMourning around hunt scheme runners/help the doc if he needs it. The flesh constructs complete schemes and are also able to kill scheme runners. Opponents don't expect that much mobility from Ressers generally (I mean, outside of Molly having members of her crew across the entire table turn 1).