Banning theRat Engine...

[Adran]

15 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

RatJoy can literally get anywhere on the board, so how do you manage to 'hide' anything? Yes terrain can play a big factor here, but that ins't always going to go your way.  And being able to survive Killjoy can be very hand dependant.

By knowing what ratjoy is actually capable of. Yes, in theory it has a threat range of 40", but on most tables that is not practical. part of that range comes from moving the rats up as far as you can in your "outactivation" activations, which allows an opponent a chance to kill them. (up to 10 " can be cut here"). 

Then they need to be able to negotiate the board. And they need to unbury Killjoy in a place where he can charge the target for his 1AP charge. And whilst he has a decent charge range, normally the use of LOS blocking terrain will drastically reduce the places he can be placed and still able to charge. If this is the case. put models in thsoe areas. He can't charge if engaged. 

A model blocks a 5" aura of "place and charge" , which is actually a huge area. yes, Killjoy can be set up to charge them, but they are there to protect what you want protected. And if you deny his 1 Ap charge from a model you wan to protect, then you have drastically reduced the damage to the model you are protecting. 

If you are on a board where Killjoy can literally get anywhere, then  I would suggest looking at the terrain you have. Its too little by a long long way, since even in a totally empty board I can protect an area with only 4 models. 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Isn't the problem that the model you use as a blocker for Killjoy's placement needs to be able to survive both Viks charging it or Leveticus unloading into it for a full turn since those two are the combos that people seems to use the bomb with? Hamelin has been doing this since beta without anyone complaining. 

It is also rarely necessary to charge killjoy 40" up since the board is only 36" long and part of that is both deployment zones. In practice you rarely begin the game more than 24" away from your opponent and then you usually need to get a little further up the board to be in a position where you can walk up to score strategy or scheme points on turn 2 so at the end of turn 1 (or with the rats: before you actually move a single of your "real" models) almost the entire enemy crew will be within 18" of your deployment zone, if not closer because if they are not they have automatically lost points on turn 2.

If the rat-factory "only" achieves the effect of your opponent staying with most of their crew in their deployment zone or placed really awkwardly you are still probably up 1-2 VP at the end of turn 2 and have "only" killed about 2-3 models with Viks + Killjoy (or another beater) and the rats have morphed into models equating their initial cost so as the rat player you haven't actually wasted a single stone since you still have a very decent 6ss model that is actually pretty great at scheming and has a slowing attack. You also probably haven't placed your models in compromising positions since you can probably place your models so the enemy can't easily take care of them using that terrain mentioned earlier that restricts movement. On turn 2 your enemy might have time to take care of a single of those models (if they gain initiative) before the Viks go to town in a doomflurry again. The only real weakness the Viks have is that after they kill something the enemy gets to punish them. This lets them kill a lot of stuff turn one without retaliation.

That's the way I see it at least. I have only faced the rat engine a couple of times and those games were not what I would describe as my idea of fun. I would ban it on pure "this game is supposed to be about alternating activations and the rats break that concept".

[Math Mathonwy]

18 hours ago, the proxy union said:

also ratjoy in a non hamelin list will cost you 17 points plus killjoy for a grand total of 29-30 stones of your list for a single cruise missile.

That's completely untrue. You get way more than "a single cruise missile". Both, Rat Catchers and Rat Kings, though arguably not the greatest pieces for their price range, are surprisingly nasty when it comes to Schemes. And Nix is horribly annoying. And Wretch is one of the most underpriced models in the game.

[Yvarre]

How do Hamelin's thematic crew even fit in with the rest of Outcasts?  It seems like Plague wouldn't be quite copacetic with others.

I've faced the lighter version of this at tournaments with Levi and Belles but no Killjoy or A&D, and it does suck having to move my whole crew while some rats just stay in one place.  What's the story that's happening with a crew standing back waiting for a bunch of rats to do nothing?  Needless to say, the Belles brought things over for Levi and whatever beaters he had to vaporize, even when I tried my damndest to block sightlines.  Belles are going to win most duels, and Levi is going to reliably kill whatever he wants to.

I still haven't seen Outcasts at the top tables at many of the events I've gone to, though.  Even though this abusable combo exists, I think players are in the game for more than finding the absolute most abusable and frustrating guarantee for winning.  I like that a player took it to a major national tournament to specifically demonstrate how overpowered it is, and I'm certainly not looking forward to a scenario where half the field at NOVA is playing it.  I guess we'll know in time how this affects the meta, and I'd advocate encouraging our community not to take this angle if Wyrd doesn't act on a solution.

[Vorschlag]

Quote

 

How do Hamelin's thematic crew even fit in with the rest of Outcasts?  It seems like Plague wouldn't be quite copacetic with others.

 

They don't but anyone fielding rats outside of Hamelin doesn't care about the fluff of their crew.
In the fluff even before becoming plague Hamelin boasts that he alone could control the Malifaux Grey rat, that even the mighty beast master Marcus was incapable of managing them.

Sadly the only fluff-based hiring restrictions in M2E are in the heads of the players who enjoy to play that way. 

With that said not many "un-fluffy" crews seem to cause as much panic and hysteria as the ratjoy build and it's variants, so hopefully rats will be restricted or have some kind of change made if it is established that it is a real problem.

Having not experienced the joys of facing one of these particular builds the only opinion I can hold presently on the matter is fluff based which seems to be quite subjective at worst and idealistic at best.   
 

[Bengt]

6 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Sadly the only fluff-based hiring restrictions in M2E are in the heads of the players who enjoy to play that way. 

Lazarus can't be hired by Guild. But yeah, there are cases where allowed hires feels quite odd from a story perspective.

[Vorschlag]

36 minutes ago, Bengt said:

7 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Sadly the only fluff-based hiring restrictions in M2E are in the heads of the players who enjoy to play that way. 

Lazarus can't be hired by Guild. But yeah, there are cases where allowed hires feels quite odd from a story perspective.

I stand corrected.

[lusciousmccabe]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

Lazarus can't be hired by Guild. But yeah, there are cases where allowed hires feels quite odd from a story perspective.

And story based restrictions have become so limited that that one seems kind of random and pointless. It's like, what are they worried is going to happen, you'll give him plant evidence instead of Oathkeeper?

[Gnomezilla]

10 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

And story based restrictions have become so limited that that one seems kind of random and pointless. It's like, what are they worried is going to happen, you'll give him plant evidence instead of Oathkeeper?

What I wouldn't have given to be able to eavesdrop on the development of Malifaux 1.5 and avatars...

"I'M going to have the awesomest giant robot! With a supergiant sword and an awesome super fancy gun!"

"No, I am going to have the awesomest giant robot! With a grenade launcher, and YOU won't be able to hire it! AND it'll be poseable!"

"Oh yeah?!"

"Yeah!"

*giant robot smashy fight*

[lusciousmccabe]

Must mount Lazarus and Peacekeeper on Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots board...

Damn it Iron Painter, why are you over!?

[Gnomezilla]

9 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Must mount Lazarus and Peacekeeper on Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots board...

Damn it Iron Painter, why are you over!?

I hear they're still taking suggestions for the Iron Painter judges' round theme...Bonus points for anyone who makes it rain. Grenades.*

Was thinking Lazarus and avatar-Hoffman really, both plastic, and both on a scale the peacekeepers can't match.

 

*Which reminds me, and to actually circle back toward the topic, I was freshly annoyed on the can't-hire-Lazarus part because NoVa, I just found out, will apparently have an encounter with special rule of 'hire a crew under normal restrictions, and then hire a master from any faction'. To me, that says grab Lazarus and spend the entire encounter dropping more blasts than Sonnia after espresso. What is probably intended is to see how many people choose to ractivate out-of-faction.

[the proxy union]

On 6/29/2016 at 7:25 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

That's completely untrue. You get way more than "a single cruise missile". Both, Rat Catchers and Rat Kings, though arguably not the greatest pieces for their price range, are surprisingly nasty when it comes to Schemes. And Nix is horribly annoying. And Wretch is one of the most underpriced models in the game.

only if your opponent doesn't go after killjoy hard, and you win Initiative. if that is the case, you might get 2 swings out of it.

 rat kings are weaker in GG2016 due to the lightness of scheme marker scenarios, yes rat catchers and the rest are still great, but they are scheme runners that deliver a killjoy. they themselves are not exactly damage output machines. so once killjoy goes down, and he will go down(barring hard swings in variance), the other 17 ish points feel only average in the mid to late game.

-proxy

[Blacks85]

3 hours ago, the proxy union said:

the other 17 ish points feel only average in the mid to late game.

I Agree...but I would say more "much below average" in the mid/late game.

Rats are basically uselss (a part from engage thing....) and what it comes from it definitively below average for the SS cost

[admiralvorkraft]

I don't know what you're talking about. Playing scheme marker schemes against Hamelin is pointless because of how efficient Rat Kings are, and even one from Ratctivations makes them tricky.

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

only if your opponent doesn't go after killjoy hard, and you win Initiative. if that is the case, you might get 2 swings out of it.

How does he "go after the killjoy hard" if he can't activate anyone? Or was that 'and' supposed to be an 'or'?

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

 rat kings are weaker in GG2016 due to the lightness of scheme marker scenarios

Huh? In GG2016 the Scheme Markers need to be put on the table before the final round unlike in the original Schemes. I don't understand what you mean by 'lightness' here but Rat Kings, having played against them under GG2016, are much more annoying. Especially when the opponent has activation control and can activate the Rat King after you have put the Scheme Markers down.

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

, yes rat catchers and the rest are still great, but they are scheme runners that deliver a killjoy. they themselves are not exactly damage output machines. so once killjoy goes down, and he will go down(barring hard swings in variance), the other 17 ish points feel only average in the mid to late game.

"Average" I can agree with, but the original claim that I took exception to was that you only get the cruise missile Killjoy (and the rest are dead weight contributing nothing of worth whatsoever).

[lusciousmccabe]

You're probably going to be looking at a Ratcatcher anyway by the time the cycle is through. If they only go as far as Ratcatcher then it's only 4 activations for 8SS, which is pretty reasonable. 

There is chance that the Ratcatcher could then summon enough rats to make a new Rat King. But I think if it gets to do that you've probably lost the game anyway. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Really not sure I agree with that sentiment. I think there are good reasons why you can't hire mindless zombies or Seishin, and why though you can hire clockwork traps they can't activate. 

[Da Git]

Basically I agree with everything @Fetid Strumpet has said, Kirai was my main master back in 1.5 and basically the first thing on my list was 5 Seishin & the Lost Love.  Turn one wait till everything activated, then send two Shikome missiles into their crew.  It was horrifyingly evil that I basically stopped playing Kirai.

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Really not sure I agree with that sentiment. I think there are good reasons why you can't hire mindless zombies or Seishin, and why though you can hire clockwork traps they can't activate. 

Basically everything this ^

I haven't played against the Rat engine and just from my experiences from Kirai, I don't want to.  It really doesn't sound fun to me (a personal reason, but date nonetheless), and it breaks one of the main concepts of Malifaux, the alternate activations.  Luckily for me, the people I play don't take it (as they have a similar mindset to me).

[the proxy union]

17 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How does he "go after the killjoy hard" if he can't activate anyone? Or was that 'and' supposed to be an 'or'?

Huh? In GG2016 the Scheme Markers need to be put on the table before the final round unlike in the original Schemes. I don't understand what you mean by 'lightness' here but Rat Kings, having played against them under GG2016, are much more annoying. Especially when the opponent has activation control and can activate the Rat King after you have put the Scheme Markers down.

"Average" I can agree with, but the original claim that I took exception to was that you only get the cruise missile Killjoy (and the rest are dead weight contributing nothing of worth whatsoever).

1-killjoy is defense 4. if your opponent throws either something like howard, a combat master like lady j, or just uses 2-3 models to take it out turn 2. you get a free hit turn one; that we agree on. turn 2-5 they fight normally. Df4 means killjoy will bite the dust on turn 2 if they focus on him. the only question there is if you can get him to trade evenly or better.

2- schemes that score at the end of game give you more opportunity to get to them, and don't stop you from doing other things before eating markers. they are still good for it, but the schemes that involve markers are fewer and harder to do. since they are harder to accomplish, your opponent will be more likely to use the other schemes that you wont be able to stop. why choose a marker scheme if you can only get 1-2 points from it when murder protege or take prisoner will be more likely to net you 3?

3- never said useless. it's just that they feel underwhelming. spending ~6 points on wretch + rat for activation control is one thing; but cramming ~17 stones worth of models that either don't or won't finish off the threats that survive isn't something that I like putting into my lists.

-Proxy

[daniello_s]

BTW I think Kirai and Ikiryo loves Killjoy-bomb  

[Ludvig]

21 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

I Agree...but I would say more "much below average" in the mid/late game.

Rats are basically uselss (a part from engage thing....) and what it comes from it definitively below average for the SS cost

I'm not following. What other models in the 2 SS bracket are making rats seem much below average?

The only other hireable non-totem model I know of are clockwork traps and they can't even activate so if I spend 8ss on traps I'm not really getting much value out of them. If I spent 8ss on rats I would do my whole turn 1 after the entire enemy crew so I could use superior positioning to have an ideal situation going into turn 2 and the rats will have morphed into a model with 8 wounds, wk5 and don't mind me. Don't mind me is schemerunner gold and those wounds makes that a fairly resilient scheme runner. The traps would be doing nothing except possibly tying up a portion of the board and could just as likely end up being a liability since some abilities require enemy models to be killed to provide healing or summoning etc. In a marker scheme the rat catcher could move close to one of the traps and still place markers for something like plant explosives, the trap will get one attack towards the catcher for the entirety of the game and then it just sits there and gives points when the markers blow up.

[Ludvig]

@the proxy union I'm not sure you need to use killjoy, the rats are plenty filthy with other setups. Leveticus could use the out activation to move up ashes and dust AND Howard Langston as well as himself and they would all three get to attack an enemy model. That's a lot of high-quality attacks after you took your entire turn 1, hard to keep your good stuff alive against that.

I'm not sure we mean the same thing when we talk about the rat engine. To me, the rat engine is just 5 rats or 3 rats and an obedient wretch. That makes 10 stones and at least 9 activations turn 1 which translate into a decent 6ss schemer and a 2ss annoying model turn 2 so you basically spent 4ss to get those 9 activations turn 1.

[lusciousmccabe]

7 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Really not sure I agree with that sentiment. I think there are good reasons why you can't hire mindless zombies or Seishin, and why though you can hire clockwork traps they can't activate. 

Sorry, my point was that without all the metamorphosis steps you're getting 4 activations for 8 SS rather than the 7-9 you get with them. That may be bad enough on its own, but it's hard to really comment since the same models give you those ~1 SS activations. 

[Blacks85]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not following. What other models in the 2 SS bracket are making rats seem much below average?

The only other hireable non-totem model I know of are clockwork traps and they can't even activate so if I spend 8ss on traps I'm not really getting much value out of them. If I spent 8ss on rats I would do my whole turn 1 after the entire enemy crew so I could use superior positioning to have an ideal situation going into turn 2 and the rats will have morphed into a model with 8 wounds, wk5 and don't mind me. Don't mind me is schemerunner gold and those wounds makes that a fairly resilient scheme runner. The traps would be doing nothing except possibly tying up a portion of the board and could just as likely end up being a liability since some abilities require enemy models to be killed to provide healing or summoning etc. In a marker scheme the rat catcher could move close to one of the traps and still place markers for something like plant explosives, the trap will get one attack towards the catcher for the entirety of the game and then it just sits there and gives points when the markers blow up.

Not meaning the rats, I mean the rat king or the rat catcher. They are both below average for the SS cost they have, imo.

You are right saying that for 8SS you can get much activation but you have to consider:

• You get a slight edge on turn 1 and a massive edge on turn 2. Starting from turn 3 you have a rat catcher which can probably do a couple of interact but not necessary the new schemes need it...but it surely a bad piece for the 8SS of the price.
• Outcast are all about the "beating". They have no push or interact intensive model...so they are very "low" on this super important side of the game. With arcanist or gremlin you can reposition your pieces with push...with outcast? you can't do that, you have to leave them where they are.
• You must build a crew fully designed to hard beat to get advantage from this and not all schemes combination reward a beat crew.
• You can use the terrains to protect your team from the "after-last-activation-unresponded-assault". If you put a tough piece on the frontline and keep a good hand...they might trade 1x1 but you decide which 1. Then the outcast have a unbalanced team on the field.

And - once more - I'm not saying that is not strong. I won 2 tournament in a row with that, then stop playing it.

I absolutely agree that is boring to play and to play against.

ps do not count peon when activating but keep activate another piece until you activate a non-peon would probably balance this and more situation.

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

1-killjoy is defense 4. if your opponent throws either something like howard, a combat master like lady j, or just uses 2-3 models to take it out turn 2. you get a free hit turn one; that we agree on. turn 2-5 they fight normally. Df4 means killjoy will bite the dust on turn 2 if they focus on him. the only question there is if you can get him to trade evenly or better.

You seem to have switched from what you were originally replying to to some other conversation. Yes, KJ is quite killable (well, he is if there is anything left after he has gone and Vikkies or Levi have gone to town as well). But that doesn't have much to do with what I was replying to.

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

2- schemes that score at the end of game give you more opportunity to get to them, and don't stop you from doing other things before eating markers. they are still good for it, but the schemes that involve markers are fewer and harder to do. since they are harder to accomplish, your opponent will be more likely to use the other schemes that you wont be able to stop. why choose a marker scheme if you can only get 1-2 points from it when murder protege or take prisoner will be more likely to net you 3?

Forcing someone to skip Scheme Marker Schemes after they have possibly built their force to make those Scheme Marker Schemes easy is absolutely huge. Crazy huge. If you cannot appreciate that, I'm not sure what to say. Because really, GG2016 Scheme Marker Schemes aren't difficult at all for some crews but when facing Rat Kings they suddenly are difficult again.

Also, Take Prisoner is a gigantic gamble as a savvy opponent can deny is pretty trivially if they realize what you're doing.

5 hours ago, the proxy union said:

3- never said useless.

The person I was replying to did say that and then you took exception to my reply to them.

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not following. What other models in the 2 SS bracket are making rats seem much below average?

The only other hireable non-totem model I know of are clockwork traps and they can't even activate so if I spend 8ss on traps I'm not really getting much value out of them.

Though this was apparently a bit beside the point: Stuffed Piglets. And they certainly blow the Rats out of the water by a giant margin. But that's neither here nor there, really.

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@the proxy union I'm not sure you need to use killjoy, the rats are plenty filthy with other setups. Leveticus could use the out activation to move up ashes and dust AND Howard Langston as well as himself and they would all three get to attack an enemy model. That's a lot of high-quality attacks after you took your entire turn 1, hard to keep your good stuff alive against that.

I'm not sure we mean the same thing when we talk about the rat engine. To me, the rat engine is just 5 rats or 3 rats and an obedient wretch. That makes 10 stones and at least 9 activations turn 1 which translate into a decent 6ss schemer and a 2ss annoying model turn 2 so you basically spent 4ss to get those 9 activations turn 1.

There's two kinds. The one you describe is the traditional version. Then there is the Killjoy delivery system which also incorporates Nix to give the Rat who gets Reactivate from Rat Catcher Fast in order for it to be sacrificed to deliver Killjoy. In Icemyn's report this engine was Nix, Obedient Wretch and four Rats.

And I do agree, the two do get mixed up in this conversation.