Fixing Revenant

[Da Git]

3 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

yeah, it would make no sense if they keep Undead characteristic. but I prefer Incorporeal over Undead even if my master can make use of corpse markers! Especially if I can create them in other ways.

Totally agree with this, would much rather they gained Incorporeal over being Undead. That severe terrain just kills their movement (which is probably the main thing going for them outside of being tanky). Totally agree on how much better Hanged are than Lampads, so much more internal synergy with itself and keyword (Tormented is a really good example of keyword synergy). Hits a lot harder and has huge debuffs, is almost as tanky, has card draw rather than discard and moves faster in terrain. Lampad moves a lot faster in open ground, and is situationally immortal (provided you have enough cards {yeah right!} and pyre markers nearby). Really, looking at them in a vacuum, Hanged should be 9ss & Lampads 7ss...

[Maniacal_cackle]

I agree power-level wise, incorporeal is a clear upgrade. But I don't like the direction it takes the model. It diverges synergies for the keyword even more.

If you really wanted to address movement through terrain, could give it an ability that is equivalent to flight but can only be done if it starts or ends its movement in contact with a pyre marker. But given that Reva and Wanyudo are unimpeded, the crew is already very good at dealing with severe terrain. Would be nice if Lampads could teleport to pyre markers, though (and even without LOS, as a way for the crew to be able to bypass impassable terrain).

But as is, if I see a map covered in forests, my desire to play Reva goes way up. It is a fantastic crew for severe terrain already IMO.

[ShinChan]

I agree with  @Maniacal_cackle. The crew is already tricky to put to work due to their interactions, having Lampads incorporeal wouldn't help. Also, from a fluff perspective they're literally corpses on fire

Some trick with shielded like "if this model has burning at the beginning of its action it gains Shielded +1" could be interesting to justify their price. However, I would focus on giving them +1 Stat in the  attack, Cremation and a new utility trigger.

And I don't think that hanged should cost 9ss. They're in the sweet spot of many 8ss minions. Although that Atuned looks like too much of a gift

[Da Git]

So I've been playing a few more games with Revenant & listened to the new Schemes & Stones podcast today and got me thinking about this thread again as my findings have been very similar. Reva is great, an absolute blast with mass positive flips allowing her to pump out some decent damage to models that can't reduce). However her crew is really lacking and I keep finding myself reaching for the versatiles/OOK.

For Lampads - giving them Incorporeal would actually be a terrible idea (I know I suggested it above) as then they'd be immune to Hazardous and then wouldn't be able to stack Burning from Pyre Markers!! I've found these guys to be ok in-game, but each time kind of disappointing with their stupidly low stats. Df4 just makes them so easy to hit and a liability against blast masters (Curse you Freikorps rockets!). Up them to Df 5 or give them HtW and up their stats to 6 on both their attacks and they'd be in a great place. Honestly, I'd actually be perfectly fine if they lost the demise ability altogether and got Spirits in the Flames and Flight.

Vincent still needs a reason to be anything other than a counter-tech against summoners or Incorporeal... lower Df, Wp, HP by 1, change Rapid fire to Run & Gun, drop him to 8ss and make Cremation a Bonus would be a fairly simple way to do this.

Draugr - drop Juggernaut and gain 2HP. like Vincent, swap Cremation (ideally with the same trigger Vincent has) to a bonus action.

[Jinn]

Edit to remove: Didn't see the second page, which answered my question.

[Pergli]

I don't see the problems everyone else is seeing with Reva. After the changes, she's moved into one of my top tier masters pretty solidly to the point where she is always in consideration to get picked. I've won the last 11 out of 12 games with her. My loss was because I was completely taken off guard by Mah Tucket and lost Reva too early.

Vincent 

- This guy is solid overall, his ability to create pyre markers isn't the best ability but can be a niche use of an action thats needed if your opponent has a way of actively denying pyre markers. I use him interchangeably with Anna depending on the need of the game. Anna can blow up corpse candles while letting them get free movement and gives card draw. Still, he's not the worst henchman and has some thematic uses and is an amazing anti summoner tech piece.

Corpse Candles

- don't need extra movement, mv 4 isn't great but they are fine. T1, they can push each other an extra 3 inches and they shouldn't be on the board too long. I eat my own corpse candles for focus or reva healing or for double pyre marker placement and then resummon them.

Lampads

- These are better now that they have a purpose. They are essentially burning batteries for Reva. They don't take damage from burning and can stack it up really easily with all of their abilities so she will always have her + flips which is critical for her Df 5. Also, losing the requirement to pitch a card for the corpse candle summoning makes these guys more viable.  Making them incorporeal is an awful idea because then they can't be affected by the pyre markers to pick up the burning. If anything, they should have a way to use the burning like Drauger do.

Drauger

- These guys are my main complaint, I just don't see a need for them. They are extremely squishy and don't hold up long enough for me.

Shieldbearers

- MVPs by far. Run two of these and you'll never be sorry. They provide movement/counter movement shenanigans, they are hard to put down, they can gain shielded to allow reva to attack through them, they can defend your important models with take the hit and their attack can be surprisingly gross.

Wanyudo

- If you aren't running him in your games, you're missing out. His Movement gives the crew a quick scheme runner or counter scheme runner.

Mourners

- Haven't found a real use for them and don't think I will. More Red Chapel than anything else.

Asura Roten

- Amazing in the correct pools but just don't rely on her to score all your points. Once your opponent recognizes her value, she'll die quick.

 

[ShinChan]

On 5/28/2020 at 2:42 PM, Pergli said:

I don't see the problems everyone else is seeing with Reva. After the changes, she's moved into one of my top tier masters pretty solidly to the point where she is always in consideration to get picked. I've won the last 11 out of 12 games with her. My loss was because I was completely taken off guard by Mah Tucket and lost Reva too early.

Vincent 

- This guy is solid overall, his ability to create pyre markers isn't the best ability but can be a niche use of an action thats needed if your opponent has a way of actively denying pyre markers. I use him interchangeably with Anna depending on the need of the game. Anna can blow up corpse candles while letting them get free movement and gives card draw. Still, he's not the worst henchman and has some thematic uses and is an amazing anti summoner tech piece.

Lampads

- These are better now that they have a purpose. They are essentially burning batteries for Reva. They don't take damage from burning and can stack it up really easily with all of their abilities so she will always have her + flips which is critical for her Df 5. Also, losing the requirement to pitch a card for the corpse candle summoning makes these guys more viable.  Making them incorporeal is an awful idea because then they can't be affected by the pyre markers to pick up the burning. If anything, they should have a way to use the burning like Drauger do.

Shieldbearers can handle up to 6 burning without taking any damage and they can heal themselves. They also have a better damage output than Lampads and provide more support, so I don't see any scenario where I would spend 2 extra soulstones for a Lampad.

Vincent is too resource hungry to work. Reva's damage is not that good overall (3/4/5) and Vincent is worse (2/3/4). He can shoot 3 times, yes, but by discarding a card, and Revenant really struggles with cards. Also Vincent doesn't ignore cover or concealment and with a range of 10" he would be in charge range of the 90% of the models in this game, which would engage him from more than 0" away and force him to waste one action moving around to hit the model that charged him. The benefits of cremation are very limited, I wouldn't mind expending an action from a 4-6ss model on doing it, but one of Vincent's doesn't seem right.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Shieldbearers can handle up to 6 burning without taking any damage and they can heal themselves. They also have a better damage output than Lampads and provide more support, so I don't see any scenario where I would spend 2 extra soulstones for a Lampad.

Vincent is too resource hungry to work. Reva's damage is not that good overall (3/4/5) and Vincent is worse (2/3/4). He can shoot 3 times, yes, but by discarding a card, and Revenant really struggles with cards. Also Vincent doesn't ignore cover or concealment and with a range of 10" he would be in charge range of the 90% of the models in this game, which would engage him from more than 0" away and force him to waste one action moving around to hit the model that charged him. The benefits of cremation are very limited, I wouldn't mind expending an action from a 4-6ss model on doing it, but one of Vincent's doesn't seem right.

I kind of agree, but could you clarify how the shieldbearers can just ignore burning?

If you're using the bonus action, then they get staggered, and I don't see how a 3" move model is going to keep up with Reva.

For Vincent I agree his melee range makes it tricky if he gets charged, but I use him for zone control (I.e., get into position and act as a turret to gun down anyone who enters the area).

Creating that safe space is crucial for the rest of the crew to get into position IMO.

[Adran]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I kind of agree, but could you clarify how the shieldbearers can just ignore burning?

 

My guess is it is using the shielded you get from the pyre marker. So as long as you are using some of his burning each turn, and he doesn't get to above 6, it's as if he doesn't take damage ( the shielded might  be used earlier, but it's then just effectively delayed that damage to the end of turn).

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

My guess is it is using the shielded you get from the pyre marker. So as long as you are using some of his burning each turn, and he doesn't get to above 6, it's as if he doesn't take damage ( the shielded might  be used earlier, but it's then just effectively delayed that damage to the end of turn).

Oh, duh, I keep forgetting that is an ability as soon as I stop playing xD

EDIT: Although I don't really count it - if your shieldbearers are taking damage, then that shielding is already eaten up. Plus it is a bit cumbersome tagging a pyre marker every turn with your low priority shieldbearers.

[Adran]

53 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, duh, I keep forgetting that is an ability as soon as I stop playing xD

EDIT: Although I don't really count it - if your shieldbearers are taking damage, then that shielding is already eaten up. Plus it is a bit cumbersome tagging a pyre marker every turn with your low priority shieldbearers.

It depends on what you're doing. If you are using the shield bearer as a burning hub, and using 3+ burning from it a turn, then you probably want to be in a pyre doing what you are doing anyway, so you can be generating that burning and shielded at no extra cost.  In the turn picture, walking through a pyre marker will gain you 1 point of damage and gain you 1 point of damage prevention. This is true up until you get past burning +6 (due to the armour it already has). 

This is equal, even if the point of damage and the point of damage prevention happen at different points in the turn.

And infact due to the ability for burning to be removed, this may end up in your models favour. Most of the time you want to delay damage on your models as long as possible, which is one of the reasons people don't like to count burning as damage, because it doesn't kill the model until the end phase, after they have activated for that turn.

Occasionally, because of healing, you might lose out this way, but that is only going to be the case if you are at full wounds at some point during the turn. It also requires you to keep getting the shielded every subsequent turn, as the burning damages every turn.

 

[Paddywhack]

My 2 cents after getting more games in:

OK Models or ones with small tweaks: 

Reva
So much better than before. Wish I could pull Burning off enemy models too, but likely too strong. Wish Embrace the Flame was 8". I love trying to get extra actions out of her. Needs good masks, but two Embrace the Flames and up to 6 Unquiet Deads can be really nasty if you can get Pyres in the right places or the enemy has to come to you. 

Vincent
He's OK I guess, but I'm really not getting 9SS out of him. Cards are so difficult for this crew that needing to drop one for Rapid Fire can be painful, especially for a 2/3/4 damage track. Cremation seems like a huge waste on him. That should be something on a minion, not your main Henchman. Maybe if it had the Surge trigger built in to draw a card? That feels like a better trade to me - a corpse marker (already a precious resource in the crew) for a Pyre Marker and a card. Still not great, but would be worth it sometimes. Give him a 1" range on Staggering Punch or Mobile Warrior. He needs some other small thing to make him worth his points. Protective Spirits is good, but maybe a trigger to hand out Focus to one model?  Without something added he should drop to 8ss. 

Corpse Candles
Feel great as they are. I'm usually killing them myself to drop Pyres early and often. You can have 4 turn one pretty far out from deployment with Vincent's help (one of the better uses for him so far I've found). They can also sometimes move an enemy model and that's always useful.

Restless Spirit
eh... Doesn't feel as good as the old version, but OK for a 4SS model I guess. Wish Terrorize was a Stat.

Shieldbearer
Better than their stats might indicate. I have trouble keeping them up with the rest of the crew, but with armor, built in healing, built in Shielded, and HTK, they do OK. I desperately miss the old versions dropping a corpse half way through their wounds. That was so much fun, thematic, and useful on the table. Would love to see that back, but not holding my breath. Really miss their old Fast whenever a model nearby used a SS. There is no way to get Fast in this crew. I feel kind of bad that they seem relegated to the role of ping pong paddle pushing your own models up field. Can also be used on enemies I know, but harder to get that big push as you need a high Mask. Runic Blade can be very nasty with a little Focus and luck. I always take one and want to play with all three just for fun.

Draugr
Not bad, but missing a little something. I don't know why they don't have Final Veil? Also curious why they are missing a wound? Usually the Undead with HtW have 1wnd more than cost, but they only have 7. Cremation again feels bleh, but maybe that's just me not liking the action. I have a hard time wanting to trade a Corpse for just a Pyre. Maybe give them the Shifting Terrain Trigger built in to move the Pyre? Then I might be willing to do so I can pass out some Burning. Would play well into Draw Off Flame too. Blaze of Glory is great , as long as you can get some Burning. I find they get hurt so quickly that I have to use Juggernaut to heal and then can't use Draw Off Flame. Give them Final Veil, another wound and/or a trigger on Cremation and they'd be pretty perfect. 

Waynudo
I have not tested these yet. For what they seem to do they seem OK. Very mobile models that can hand out burning, but mostly to your opponent (don't want to hit your own guys with that 1dmg added in there, unlike Lampads). They seem fine for 7ss with how fast they can be. If they could hand out burning to your guys without also damaging them, I would love them, but then Lampad would really be useless. 

Need a bit more help or just bad:

Lampad
I'm more on board with these than most. I use them mainly for Hovering Flame to hand out burning to other models and Dancing in the Flames to move Pyres and hand out more Burning. However, for 8SS they are really lacking. I'm guessing their df is only a 4 due to their Demise. I'd love to see it go up to 5 since they don't have HtW. It seems to me their role really has shifted to being the rolling battery pack for Reva (and Draugr at times), but they don't have any great way to get burning on themselves easily. To make them worth 8SS I'd say they need some combination of:

• At least one Stat 6. If one is left at Stat 5 it should get a Mask Built in for Blaze. Even if both go up to 6, I think Blaze should be built in somewhere - it an 8SS model
• Add a trigger to Hovering Flame that gives the Lampad Burning +1.
• Up Df to 5 or If Df has to stay at 4, then the Ignite defensive Trigger should be added. 
• Add the Burn it All Up Trigger to give it some anti-scheme abilities.
• Fiery Presence would do a lot to make them worth 8SS.
• A new Ability that makes models unable to ignore hazardous within a small aura

They just need something. Right now the only reason I think they are priced at 8SS is the Demise ability and while it's certainly nice, it's not enough to warrant taking them. I can't see ever taking more than 1, and even that could be a hard sell.

Mourner
Just seems like Revenant was tacked on without much thought. Scarlet Temptation could be useful if Reva could still target either Df or Wp. You get that free Corpse at start of game, but that isn't enough reason to bring them over just about anything else. Even in Red Chapel they don't see the table. I would add a Mask to their Sharp Claws so they can help hand out Distracted. That would give them some purpose in both crews. If you gave Feed on Grief a built in Mask it might actually get used too. Maybe not enough to bring them, but better than now. Heck, give them Cremation and take it off Vincent and the Draugr. Something like Annoying might help them be road block models. Give them I've Got Your Back or Accomplice and I think they'd have their place too. So I would add the Mask to one of their attacks and give them one (or more) of Annoying, I've Got Your Back, or Accomplice. That would go a long way to making them more useful. Right now I've never seen anyone say you should take them. 

[LeperColony]

13 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

They just need something. Right now the only reason I think they are priced at 8SS is the Demise ability and while it's certainly nice, it's not enough to warrant taking them. I can't see ever taking more than 1, and even that could be a hard sell.

I've only played her a few times, so I'm no expert.   But my experience with the Lampads is that their demise ability conflicts with the role of running around scheming/hunting down schemers, because they can't reliably move the pyre markers enough.  Only a single walk can move them.  I'd prefer if it were any move, and maybe you have to take damage to move them or something as balance.

 

[Paddywhack]

1 minute ago, LeperColony said:

I've only played her a few times, so I'm no expert.   But my experience with the Lampads is that their demise ability conflicts with the role of running around scheming/hunting down schemers, because they can't reliably move the pyre markers enough.  Only a single walk can move them.  I'd prefer if it were any move, and maybe you have to take damage to move them or something as balance.

I agree that may have been the original intent, but with Reva's edits they are far more valuable as Burning batteries. I do wonder why the limit on Dancing? If it was both walk actions they could get a few burning in a turn, but not do much of anything else. They can hand out Burning to others this way too, but not much. If Reva could use the Burning on Enemy models it might be too good, but she can't. It must have been abused at some point during testing to require the limit. 

I'd rather cement their roles as harassing units that can stick around Pyre markers and help boost Reva. If needed they can get a burst of speed and go off to run schemes, but I don't think that's their primary goal. The Demise is just so hard to use if you send them off on their own. That and the card requirement makes it tough. On top of that they only heal 3, so easy pickings for the next hitter to finish off if you can't find a way to heal them quick. If they get another ability or action to boost them, maybe more support of some kind? Annoying might work well on them instead of the Mourners? 

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I do wonder why the limit on Dancing? If it was both walk actions they could get a few burning in a turn, but not do much of anything else. They can hand out Burning to others this way too, but not much. If Reva could use the Burning on Enemy models it might be too good, but she can't. It must have been abused at some point during testing to require the limit. 

There are other models with dancing in the flames, so it's possible that they are the reason. I know when I use fire gamin I often use a walk to place a pyre on models, and if I could do it twice a turn I probably would. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

After playing bete + bone pile, I feel like you could go a long way with:

• Give Draugr hurl corpse
• Give Draugr a built in dismember on their axe
• Give Lampads a bury/unbury mechanic similar to Bete and Bone piles (based on pyre markers or burning).
  • Possibly they can bury in base contact with a pyre marker and unbury in contact with a pyre marker.
• Give a few more shenanigans to set up corpse markers/pyre markers so you can get your models that are tied to them where they need to be.

[Jay_Azur]

Lampads could use some stats or actions with a 6 for sure. They are 8 points common... Discarding for demise is understandable, but the whole crew lacks draw so it's not a rare occasion that you run out and they just die. Or just it happens there is no pyre marker near for whatever reason. 

 

Draugrs should be completely rewritten. They requires so much fix and tweaks it would be a completely new model, so better start from scratch.

 

That said I'm OK with the rest of the crew. (I do not consider the Mourners to be part of the crew) 

The crew is currently on the weaker side, but it's fine for me. Not every master will be top tier, so a fun to play but a little weaker Reva crew would fit in my book. 

[Arlos896]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

After playing bete + bone pile, I feel like you could go a long way with:

• Give Draugr hurl corpse
• Give Draugr a built in dismember on their axe
• Give Lampads a bury/unbury mechanic similar to Bete and Bone piles (based on pyre markers or burning).
  • Possibly they can bury in base contact with a pyre marker and unbury in contact with a pyre marker.
• Give a few more shenanigans to set up corpse markers/pyre markers so you can get your models that are tied to them where they need to be.

I love the idea of the lampads getting a bury mechanic using pyre markers.  Replace hovering flames with some that pulses out burning before they are buried? 

[MrPieChee]

I'm still for the changes from the OP.

I think option one on both lampads and Draugr is probably the best way to go, but option two on both would make the crew really interesting (and fit really well with my understanding of Revas lore).

Making lampads cheaper but keeping their demise would be great - make them burning batteries and schemers, not damage dealers, Draugr should be there for damage (and tanking it).

[Saduhem]

I always get use out of a Lampad, mostly for dragging Pyre Markers up the field (Invaluable on turn 1) and creating burning fuel for Reva's flips. I wouldn't mind if the only thing that changed were the Demise requirements. Discard card or remove Pyre (preferred) but not both.

Maybe -1 stone?

Not entirely sure Revenant need "Fixing" overall though.

[unti]

It would be very thematic, I think, if lampads would unbury in basecontact when a pyremarker is placed, that way the cremation action gets a little more use...

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Saduhem said:

Not entirely sure Revenant need "Fixing" overall though.

I kind of agree in that Reva is quite a decent master, but has the same problem as Seamus (great master, subpar keyword).

For seamus he makes up for it by being one of the most powerful models in the game. Reva makes up for it by unlocking crazy synergies with corpse markers (though can be hilarious that part of her appeal as a master is she is basically a glorified gravedigger at times).

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, unti said:

It would be very thematic, I think, if lampads would unbury in basecontact when a pyremarker is placed, that way the cremation action gets a little more use...

Love this.

Also would be really interesting if Lampads had a 'ride with me' ability to pull size 2 and below allies through pyre markers with them.

Limited enough it won't be abused OOK, but really interesting potential in keyword.

[Wyamphri]

I really love playing Reva versatile, but Lampads need some love for sure. Lately, the part of her keyword I run is usually Restless Spirit and Draugr, the rest I dont really miss. Her keyword just needs a nudge I think, or maybe just a model or two but something is definitely missing 

[Paddywhack]

11 hours ago, Wyamphri said:

I really love playing Reva versatile, but Lampads need some love for sure. Lately, the part of her keyword I run is usually Restless Spirit and Draugr, the rest I dont really miss. Her keyword just needs a nudge I think, or maybe just a model or two but something is definitely missing 

Yeah - lampads don't work for their cost. Make them 6SS minions and tweak them a bit. Even if it means losing Demise. Could give them HtW or HtK in place or make them Df6. Something. Heck, give them Blaze of Glory too. At least up an action to 6 and build in a suit. I like what someone else said about giving Hovering Flame the Sudden Strike trigger. That could create some usefullness. Or a trigger that allows them to move Pyre markers with Hovering Flame. 

Draugr are OK, but could use just a minor tweak to make up to par. It is true that based on fluff a Demise ability makes more sense for them. I'm not sure why they don't have The Final Veil? 

I do wish Reva could still target Df or Wp. That would be a nice little buff.