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Saduhem

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Saduhem last won the day on February 3

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  1. The Outlaws have +1 Stat and +1 Damage from the resulting obey from the built-in crow. They also can provide some decent ranged attacks and Drop it compared to the Student who is one stone less, but doesn't really do much in addition to covetous cravings for models without Life of Crime (that's across both models). The fact that they can still move around the board when markers are dropped means that they're not too hurt from spending their own actions to give out fast. A similar benefit is offered by having covetous cravings and Run and Gun on the same model, which lets you move, attack, and still give out an action.
  2. They're better with Daw, but they still have a niche in Parker's crew if you bring non-bandits. They're essentially trading one of their actions every turn (Or even 2 if you have plenty of markers) to give it to someone else (likely without Life of Crime). After that, all the marker dropping that happens in Parker's crew gives them re-occurring pushes if it happens within 6 of them. I still think they're better in Tormented, but I wouldn't write them completely off in a Parker crew, especially since they're a lot more likely to use At Gunpoint + Buried Grudge in in a Bandit Crew. Parker can guarantee that the requirements for it to happen occur every turn, something you can't easily do with Daw, even with The Guilty's "Guilty as charged".
  3. Saduhem

    Jack Daw

    I would almost surely take Harness the Ley Line as Tormented have scheme dropping tech, but aren't very good at running too far. They also make areas of the board bad for your opponent. It's Jack's best scheme in my opinion. Get a Crooked Man, a Guilty, and a Dead Outlaw. Bonus if you have Wanted Criminal on someone. Walk Guilty up twice. If in range of an enemy due to Wedge Deployment, go ahead and try to Share Guilt Put up too greedy to die with the Dead Outlaw, charge with run and gun, hit the Guilty with a low tome do deal 2 damage and have him drop an enemy scheme marker. That lets you push another tormented (Montresor or Crooked Man), 3 inches towards the marker. If you took Wanted Criminal, draw a card too. At this point you can use covetous cravings or shoot again Walk with the crooked man and use Malifaux Mining Law to either drop a scheme marker on a crow, or convert the enemy scheme marker previously dropped to a friendly one on a mask. Either way, that lets you push another tormented model due to Too Greedy To Die. From here on, use your crooked man every turn to drop scheme markers on the centerline with his bonus action. If you have ways of healing the Guilty, you can attempt to drop multiple enemy scheme markers through the Dead Outlaw + Guilty combo, then convert them all through Malifaux Mining Law + Shifting Sands, but realistically, your opponent isn't going to let you and you need a tome every time. Protect your Crooked Man at all costs. It's got a great attack and can score Harness on its own, but it's the easiest model in your crew to kill If you take a Hanged (Which I would) If an enemy model is on the centerline, try hitting it while burning a stone/card for tomes and drop scheme markers through Draw Out Secrets. If you're desperate for markers, you can hit your own guys on tomes to get those markers out, but it's at least 2 damage a pop with the potential of forcing yourself to discard cards. The next best one would be Vendetta. If you can, let the Hanged take it, as everything else but Montresor dies fast in your crew. When you know the next attack would send your Vendetta target below half health, use a 13 of Masks (or a 13 + stone) to: If within 10 of the target but target is engaged, Horrifying whispers on a mask to place If within 10 of the target, and target is not engaged (preferable), Toss the Noose on a mask to place If within 20 of a Guilty (least preferable), use horrifying whispers on the guilty + mask, then Toss the noose +mask on Target, potentially having to focus to overcome engagement/concealment. If you want to protect your Hanged from being taken off the board after you revealed it as being the holder of vendetta, you can have Jack push him back with the punishment trigger, attacking your own models if needed. Search The Ruins is doable, but relies mostly on your Hanged being on the other Half of the board and hitting on tomes. Another alternative is to use the Midnight Stalker. If you go this route During Deployment, place the Midnight Stalker in LoS of Montresor but not in LoS of Jack. This gives the Stalker the Tormented Characteristic due to Hidden in Plain Sight on his card. Use Montresor to Obey the Midnight Stalker, preferably ending behind terrain or a model that still blocks line of sight to Jack. If possible, Obey again (You'll be dragging Montresor around with pushes, don't worry about him "wasting actions" at this point Due to Wedge Deployment, the Midnight Stalker should be able to activate on the enemy half of the board on turn 1, being fast because of Invader. From here on, it should be very easy to drop markers all around the board for Ruins, with Crooked Man/Jack/Hanged contributing the odd marker or 2. I never take Hold up their forces. The resilient models are too expensive, everything else is squishy and, aside from the Guilty, never wants to be engaged with anything. Neverborn also has lots of Deadly Pursuit and Butterfly Jump, so it's not worth it. I would skip on Outflank too. The Tormented have a lot of mobility tricks now, but the direction of the pushes depends on the position of other Tormented, especially enemy models. You're not really going to get pushes towards the two edges of the centerline. Crooked men could be decent at it because they can stay there and drop 2 markers per turn on the line, but they blow up so fast with Df 4, only HtW, and no independent means of escape. I always lose this guy first. For Deliver a message, I usually find that the first point is a freebie, the second one depends almost entirely on the activation order on the last turn. Your best bet would to be use something to drop a scheme marker close to the enemy master, have them move away, then have a Hanged charge in on a tome and drop another one. If your opponent is experienced, he's going to either wait to activate his master last and just move away, or he'll use marker removal (forage/shifting sands etc) as the last action of the game. So, honestly, only take it if you want 1 guaranteed VP (I think the second point on this scheme is one of the worst ones we have) For the strategy, Jack is really good at reckoning. His crew isn't great at killing multiple models at once, but it excels at setting up those kills for later on. So the fact that you have to spread some conditions and upgrades on turns 1-2, then slowly increase the targets that you can reliably kill, fits perfectly within the rules of the strategy. So, my recommended hires for this game would be: Jack Ligeia (I wished she were a bit more useful) Montresor - 9 Hanged + Servant of Dark Powers - 10 Guilty 5 Crooked Man 7 (I wish he wouldn't explode so easily) Dead Outlaw 6 That's your first 37 stones. I always take a cache of at least 6 due to the suit reliance of the Hanged. so that would bring you up to 43. You could bring the cache down to 5 stones and get the Midnight Stalker You could bring the cache down to 5 stones and leave Servant of Dark Powers out, then hire the Hodgepodge Emissary - This is because the crew desperately needs heals given how frequently your models get hit. The emissary also grants a push + marker drop with, within the Too Greedy To Die aura, is actually 2 pushes. That's a really good deal. Having the regeneration trinket on either Jack or the Hanged helps a lot, although the tiny range on all of the Emissary's auras mean you're not benefiting from them often. Anyway, these are all suggestions, and they could be immediately invalidated by the master/terrain you see, but it's the framework I'd have in mind for this game. Hope it helps!
  4. Saduhem

    Jack Daw

    Do you have an Idea on what you’ll be facing? Also, do you know if you will be playing him as an Outcast or Resser?
  5. It’s more the fact that it’s promoting a way to game the system that isn’t present elsewhere and seemed to be left out by design. Having “Guilty as charged” by itself is great and enables lots of fun interactions that you simply never got to see on the table prior to its introduction. The crew is a lot of fun with it. Giving the Tormented characteristic to friendly models extends the range of models that are able to benefit from it beyond the intended scope. A Dead Outlaw is, by design, able to get a Guilty to drop an enemy scheme marker. A hanged can, by design, jump to a guilty now. It helps the crew a ton, and it’s thematic. I believe that the interaction with Wretches is neither intended nor thematic. I like @retnab‘s simple fix of not letting Jack put upgrades on friendly models. Keeps all the in-keyword tricks within the thematic crew. If any change is made at all, that sounds like the best one. Just please don’t revert any of the recent changes to the crew. It’s finally fun and dripping with theme.
  6. Even in these cases it wouldn't offer anything but a marginal benefit. This really depends, for me, on how confident the designers are in being able to control every potential combination in the future. Right now the best thing you could get is obeying Hans to shoot with Montresor. But for the love of God, let's not remove the ability to make enemies tormented through all 3 of the in-keyword upgrades. It's been a huge improvement to gameplay and, together with the Depths of Malifaux, Guilty As Charged, Cursed Bullets, Ghost of Malifaux, and Too Greedy to Die, the last update really took the clunks out of the crew. Including an "if enemy" clause in the attack, like @retnab suggested is a good way to go about it, although it would be more for future proofing. There really isn't anything right now that would break the game. It would definitely prevent unintended jank. I'd hate for the developers to not be able to include a new model or ability in the game (through future releases) because of the potential interactions with Tormented.
  7. That’s what I’m wondering about. If it’s like this by design, then let it be. That’s the whole point of my replies in this thread. It’s a telegraphed, inefficient tactic that’s “cute”. Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill. If Jack is supposed to convert ook models to Tormented on his side in exchange for a permanent stagger, cool, it’s just going to require careful attention later in model development. If, on the other hand, this is an unintended loophole, let’s just close it up and move forward. So in the end, are the developers planning to leave this open as an option or not is what matters to me.
  8. Yup, unless the team specifically has future plans to make this a thing. That does seem unlikely though, and an unintended path to jank town.
  9. I don't think I misquoted anyone. Just said that, to me, it's cost-inefficient, it's telegraphed and, most importantly, not a big deal. If to "care what your response is" means to conform my opinion to yours, that's not how conversations work. Play however you wish to play, and do with other people's opinions whatever you wish to do. That said, I know my tone started veering towards condescending, and I'm sorry about it. It just took months to get Tormented to a place where at least the models are all worth taking and I'm just weary of misrepresentations that could set them back again.
  10. You're not going to spread staggered around that early. If your models got there and they have done so, then there is no point to setting up the bury trick. It's a game, there is no Malifaux police that's going to swipe your minis off the board if you're trying to kill stuff with Guilty through unburies. I addressed this thread because I didn't want a cute trick to be perceived as something more than that. Tormented have just now became playable as a crew (half the models were never-picks a few weeks ago), and I'd hate for some last minute panic to revert things back to a previous state. Other than that, I just offered you advice on what I would do against Molly since Jack, Molly, and Reva are my most tested masters throughout the Beta (Specifically because I perceived them to be in most need of changes after testing most of the crews across 3 factions). You don't have to follow any of it.
  11. I don't think any "discussion" has ever gotten better by someone telling the other to "chill". @CrimsonWraith, Forgotten are one of the most action efficient crews in Ressers. They're in a completely different league than Tormented are, unfortunately. But given that you're dealing with summoning and reactivations, hiring 5 stones to move your guilty around is just digging you deeper in the hole. Unburying your guilty in base contact isn't going to help you scheme or counteract Molly's scheming. You also can't tie up Philip, Archie, Terrors, or Crooligans because they all have ways of just leaving engagement. The models who don't can be pushed by Molly. Tormented don't have a scheme runner, an issue that has been brought up frequently. That's why I really wished Ligeia to be significant instead of being a discount Scribe. Your best bet against scheme runners is to use your Hanged to place with a mask on their bonus action, and run and gun with the Dead Outlaws. You're not going to be able to keep up with crooligans, night terrors, or even Archie. Jack is better at controlling an area of the board and dealing spikes of damage when needed (Which is harder to pull off the more models you have that don't give out staggered), trying to make the Guilty play Molly's game is going to leave you disappointed in my opinion. I'd try and force Molly to play Jack's game, not the other way around. I do take Guilty, but I don't pay an extra 5 stone void wretch tax on them, and I usually want to get the most out of them and have my opponent work to kill them. With 5 health after the unbury, telegraphed by having a void wretch, your guilty is going to die fast. Then it's a 5 stone arcane reservoir. Any model with puncture or flay will 1 shot it. Against Molly, the Rabble Risers are going to bring them down to 4 without even having to attack due to blade rush. If they're anywhere near Molly, she's going to farm markers and take out yours due to her triggers on your Wp 4 Guilty.
  12. Jack has a 1 turn delay between putting an upgrade and actually giving out staggered (which usually means it really starts happening on turn 3), and ligeia is a 4 health totem on a stat 4 attack and a projectile icon. Ligeia is a downgrade of Lucius’ totem, The scribe, and the single most unreliable tool in your crew to give staggered out. Your entire crew becomes very mediocre if you don’t push staggered around with every model you can. 10-15 stones on a gimmick that’s going to get your 5 stone models killed early or stuck at Mv3 is just trying to abuse of a rule for the sake of it, and paying a dire price too. This all seems very heavy on theoryfaux. I’m just saying that, with months put into Jack alone, this is one of the most inefficient use of stones I can imagine for a crew that already struggles in other areas, especially when you can, instead, be placing 2 Hanged and Jack Daw 8-10 inches away instead, drawing from “Drop it” and protection money, and getting pushes on top of that. In the end everyone can play this game how they want. I’m just weary of situations that are hypothetically oppressive but factually non-existent, especially when this results in a rule change that didn’t really cause any problems to begin with. The hate Molly got based on theory alone filled dozens of pages a day. Test out the crew a dozen times, then see if you still want to hire a Mv3 scheme runner at 5 stones. I actually hope a lot of people do because, although they’re a lot better, Tormented are nowhere near the top crews in either faction. Part of the flexibility they just got comes from “Guilty as charged” and all upgrades giving out the Tormented characteristic. I’d hate for that to revert, the clunkiness being reintroduced to the crew, and all based on conjecture alone. Jack was already able to place minions in base contact with enemy models. That’s any minion, and no need for janky setups. Turns out no one wanted it and it got taken out, thankfully. Paying 10-15 stones for it and making a scheme runner well, unable to run,doesn’t seem like the best deal.
  13. With 2 Guilty and a wretch it’s 15 stones that’s not putting out staggered (The Guilty technically can but it’s conditional and you only get 1 chance), with the guilty taking at least 1 damage from the attack, the wretch taking at least 1 damage and stuck at mv 3, and the plan is to have these guys take more damage from moving Idols. That’s also walking into Jack’s biggest weakness, vulnerability to ping damage and a lack of heals which, if hired to compensate for this strategy, further detracts stones from the staggered mechanic. We might be having different experiences at the table, but after months of playing Jack, I just have to hire a reliable stagger machine or the crew just crumbles, and I have to bring a minimum of 6-8 stones for cache to make the Hanged shine and the occasional nuke from Jack himself. Hiring out of keyword really begs for heals too.
  14. With The Guilty on the other side of the map and the Wretch at Mv 3 for the whole game, the bury isn't realistically happening more than once. In a Tormented crew I'm always struggling to squeeze the most out of my stones. Personally, I'm not investing 5 stones in what's going to be a dead model all game just to move the Guilty up the board. Jack actually used to have the option of placing minions directly in base contact with the opponent if you were willing to take an upgrade off the target model, but no one used the trigger and it was reworked into the current version of punishment. Instead of using 10 stones to bring a guilty in the opponent's deployment zone, why not take the Midnight stalker for 2 cheaper, or give it Servant for 10? You could even obey him with Montresor when out of Jack's LoS. Between that and Herald, the Stalker could get Invader to proc on turn 1! It's probably just a personal preference kind of thing though, I'm sure there are some situations where it might be useful.
  15. Crooligans can do it every turn and don’t require an out of keyword hire, an attack from that model on your guilty, and an attack from your master to the ook model. That Guilty is only jumping once per game and losing a minimum of 1 health in the process and a master action. Also don’t forget that the wretch is now staggered every turn for the rest of the game, becoming a mv 3 scheme runner with at least 1 damage on it. You’re also at -1 plentiful on your curse upgrades.
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