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Saduhem

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Everything posted by Saduhem

  1. I must say, tried new Jack this morning. He might not be Von Schill, but the crew has soooo many tricks up its sleeve! I also think it's one of the few crews that now can actually make use of the Outcast Upgrades. Getting decent mileage out of Protection Money.
  2. Well, I got @matt‘s interpretation of it and it’s, as usual, a lot better and refined than what my mind gave birth to. Tormented finally have a lot of cool interactions.... and none of the impossible Rube Goldberg hoops to go through! Everything got cleaned up so nicely, it’s hard to believe it ever was as clunky as it has been. I went from “God I have to hire this thing for playtesting” to “How do I pick?!??” I’m dead tired but I’m going to have to get this on the table tonight. I just have to. Print, Print it all!!!
  3. Yup! Speaking of which, Restless Spirit got your amazing suggestion too!
  4. That was an awesome suggestion and I'm really happy it made it in. Look at that flavor on the trigger name too!!!
  5. Yeah, having @matt and @Kyle as developers is, by itself, enough to show that investing in the new edition is worth it. With Open Beta ended in the splendid place it did, and future products designed by them from the ground up, I know we can expect nothing but excellence. They truly capture the essence of what makes Malifaux what it is. And thank you for taking all of our feedback seriously, sifting through all the dirt to find the gold, then smelting it into something beautiful for us to enjoy. Closed Beta sometimes felt like we were playing someone's game and, if our thoughts didn't align to it, they were largely ignored. Open Beta always felt like the developers were working on our game. The developers had clear goals, but our concerns and desires were taken into account and, through their guidance, these thoughts became part of the Malifaux Universe.
  6. Tormented look so sweet right now!
  7. Even if the RS changed that way, I wouldn’t have him sit by Reva. For me he’s usually plopping corpse markers near things I want to hit, or running schemes across the map. Similarly, my shieldbearers (Which I truly love now) are nowhere near Reva for Take the Hit ( The ability has too high a cost and too small a range to be useful in this crew), and I don’t usually have the card available to discard anyway. If Reva gets threatened, I usually hit whatever that is with a mask and leg it with Mv 7 and unimpeded, or kill corpse candles with feed on grief. If my shieldbearers can’t help Reva, I don’t think the RS can. That said, I’m one of the guys in the “Reva’s fine” camp. If her survivability really needs to increase, maybe range is the way to go. Instead of buffing her rane directly, she could perhaps summon a corpse candle within 8 instead of 6 maybe, so she’s more likely to attack from the edge of her range (Assuming a corpse marker is 8ish away).
  8. I personally like the quantity of actions Tara’s crew gets, and I really love that she activates twice combined with the timeslip rework. I wouldn’t want to give that up for any alternative honestly. I haven’t played them in over a month though, and have not tested the most recent changes at all. Very happy about the 2x void wretch summon though. Aionus was always an unbury machine for me but, if you want to unbury twice per round, he’s going to be left behind. Nimble would be great. Given that he would unbury 2 models after having already moved once, he’d be sparing 2 walk actions for the unburied models. Very action efficient. Would it be too good? He is 10 stones after all. Would that make beast bombing happen too easily and frequently?
  9. It’s not the complicated part that bugs me the most. I won games just because of how lucky the idol placement was for me. Having to give up one of your highest cards to make up for the randomness (assuming you have the correct suit and card, hopefully cheating second) doesn’t feel too fair.
  10. New intern waiting on me to be trained. I’m refreshing this page instead. I don’t have a problem, I can quit whenever I want.
  11. It would definitely be a welcomed ability as long as it doesn’t increase his cost or take away his corpse generation aspect or his mobility.
  12. I like this move! With all the models we have it's really the only way. I can't imagine a single book for every wave one model. It would also not be very practical to go through. With all the rules being available for free (and an app later on I presume), it doesn't really feel like a cash grab or anything like that. The art is just gorgeous, can't wait to have these babies on my shelf.
  13. With all the rules being available for free, I think the books are more for collecting/art/lore. You technically don't "need" any books for the rules. With the immense amount of models we have now, I think this was inevitable. Not too displeased about it though.
  14. I’m still, very likely erroneously, assuming the current Masters in DMH will see a return and are currently placeholders, hence the mandatory existence of DMH and the lack of attention to the masters in it. Based on thus purely speculative assumption, I stopped worrying about Nicodem a while ago. I like the Restless Spirit as it’s the cheapest way to benefit from Blasphemous ritual if you can’t produce your own corpses in Keyword. Being an action on one of our general upgrades, having a cheap-ish way to actually use it is welcome. With Mv 5 and incorporeal, it’s good as a scheme runner too. It can score the second point of Dig Their Graves entirely on his own, and setup the first point. If anything, I’m sad he isn’t versatile. He never disappointed me with Reva. I never, ever used any of his attack actions, but I really just want to walk twice anyway and put the corpse marker in the best position possible. With Mourners, this dude can put down 2 out of the 3 markers needed for Harness the ley line in one activation. Mortimer is a bit hurt by the direct translation of a 2e card into 3e. In 2e it was ok for him to be stuck in your backlines forever since that’s where your corpse/summoning engine was. With that no longer being the case and Fresh Meat getting a reduction in range, he’s got the front of the card of someone who wants to be close-ish to the action, but can’t realistically get there. He’s even got the old regeneration although he can’t take his spleen out anymore or be clise enough to anything to get hurt. When I did play him (a grand total of 2 times) his value was there on turn 1, less on 2, and pretty much gone after that. I’d like for him to push to corpse markers when dropped so he doesn’t stay too far behind, but I might just be jaded by testing a very slow crew for too long. The Draugr does get killed very easily. Even giving gim GST, the regeneration and Juggernaut don’t help because he doesn’t make it to the next activation. Juggernaut on his card has the same problem Archie’s had. Namely, using juggernaut would heal far less than you would have prevented by just using Leap/Draw off flame to get out of there. Both models are greatly defined by their bonus action, having something that competes with it doesn’t offer much help. Archie no longer has that issue, the Draugr still does. Yin... I can’t really objectively comment on her as my main gripe is that the model used to be very one-of-a-kind, and is now pretty generic. The Crooked man dies too fast, but my concerns about all things Tormented are posted elsewhere and I’m sure the Designers are aware of them, so I won’t discuss them here. Overall, the faction feels quite polished. I’m very optimistic about the changes coming this week. After that, it’s time to coerce the people here that have gotten into a game about belligerent devices to get back into the streets of Malifaux. Maybe bring them for a walk to The Other Side.
  15. Here it is. This post isn't to say that Tormented are unplayable and no one should ever buy a piece of Tormented plastic, but it has models that are currently just not doing what they were meant to do, and a lot of text is wasted on potential interactions that sounds great, but don't really happen. The models that do work are really, really good. The latest changes to Tormented really brought the keyword away from spamming discard attacks, and brought in new ways of making the pieces fit together. They're almost there, but the cogs don't fit. So, instead of just throwing those cogs out and telling your friends to never bother painting a Dead Outlaw, let's look at some of the issues I found. -------------------General Issues with the crew Issue: You hurt your own crew Turn 1 you are always going to use Jack Daw to charge one of your models if you have a crow below 6, effectively trading 2 health (assuming minimum damage) for 3 inches of movement. It sounds like a bad trade, but your Crooked man is not going to reach anything otherwise, especially if he needs to focus to overcome friendly fire/concealment. If you hired Jaakuna, that’s who you’re charging to reduce the damage dealt to 1. If not, you’re charging Ligeia. With no in-keyword healing, that’s an issue. If I took Grave Spirit’s touch, I’ll try to charge that model Possible solution: Uknown. If Ligeia had a seishin-style heal, it would help this this and other issues perhaps. Issue: Terrain and Markers hurt the crew too much *Highest Priority Issue in Keyword* The crew is heavily hurt by corner deployment, severe terrain, bumping in your own models during pushes, staggered (ironically). Struggles a lot against marker based crews, making out of Keyword Models mandatory. If you declared ressers, you’re out of luck with the out of keyword assistance. Possible solution: **Highly recommended** Make Drawn to Betrayal and/or Punishment ignore models and terrain during pushes. This change alone would make Tormented far less easy to hard counter Issue: Playing Stat Catch-up -The crew lowers enemy Mv, but has several models at Mv 4. The opponent starts out with a movement advantage, you try to make it even throughout the game. Opponent requires no set-up to obtain such advantage, you do. - The crew creates situations in which you attack enemy models at +2 Stat, yet you have models with Df4 or Wp4 to begin with, which puts your models at -1/-2 to resist duels in the first place (with no set-up required) Possible solution: -For the movement half, consider if it really is necessary to have so many Mv 4 models. If it is, consider swapping out some unused actions to a movement trick. Most importantly let Punishment and/or Drawn to Betrayal ignore models and terrain during the push. I cannot stress how much this would help. - For the Df/Wp issues. Consider if it is necessary having so many Df4 or Wp4 models. If it is, consider enhancing the survivability of the Crooked Man (above anyone else) and/or the Dead Outlaw. They currently die when being looked at. Having any healing at all in the crew, even a single wound, would help too. Issue: Scheming The crew has no scheme runner. While this could be a fair trade off in crews that end up excelling in other areas, Tormented currently have low stats, slow movement, no healing, limited pushes, no summoning, average range, no alternate ways to access focus outside of hiring corpse generation (out of keyword) + GST. They can do good damage with set-up, but damage focused crews do it better with no set-up requirement. What the crew does have is taxing your opponent’s hand, which greatly diminishes with upgrades granting ruthless. Is that really enough to warrant giving up effectiveness in so many auras? The current best scheme runner is the Hanged, who charges your own models to proc Draw out secrets on low tomes, or spends a stone to have an enemy model drop one if the attack succeeds. Not bad by any means, but when that’s your best option, it turns out to be quite expensive. The other closest thing to a scheme runner is the crooked Man, who is hogging those 6+ crows for “I can Dig It” on Malifaux Mining Law. The issue is that with Mv4 and no unimpeded, this guy takes forever to get where he needs and gets stuck into everything. That said, he’s good for Harness the Ley Line if he manages to sit on the centerline without getting murdered. Spoliers, he gets murdered. Possible solution: There was a proposal to give “By your side” to Guilty. Another solution is to at least remove insignificant from Ligeia. She’s a squishy Mv5 incorporeal model that fits the bill and really does absolutely nothing with her actions except walk. Having the crow built in Malifaux Mining Law would also make it much more reliable and easier to combo with Covetous Cravings. Issue: Torment This is not an issue in itself, but a possible overestimation of how effective Torment is as an ability. As much as you’d like to shower the enemy crew in upgrades, you can’t really count on more than 2-3 being out at any given time. Generally speaking, you also end up having to put them on models that already have their own upgrades in the first place, because those are the targets you have to remove to win the game. The card draw ramps up through the turns, with it being null on turn 1, then 2-3 cards on turn 2, and 3+/-1 on the turns following that. The ability is especially great if you can pull position for a good Fickle Tormentor turn. It’s a good ability, but your Master has 6 health, and that’s where a lot of your cards are going. Possible solution: None needed, as long as the crew isn’t looked at with the assumption that Tormented are swimming in cards, because they’re definitely not. Issue: Ping Damage Ping damage absolutely murders this crew. Jack and they Hanged are usually your star models, and neither of them can deal with that. Hazardous terrain will reduce Jack to shreds (Please let punishment ignore terrain), burning, poison, blasts, shockwaves, idiosyncratic abilities that do 1 damage (Misery, Ophelia’s upgrade discard, etc) nullify most of the defenses on the Hanged, and all of what protects Jack. Solution: I think it’s alright (and perhaps welcome) to have specific strategies being particularly effective against certain crews. If ping damage is the bane of Tormented, then let it be so. If Ruthless is an additional anti-Tormented tech, that’s fine too. But don’t make terrain, crew made markers, deployment, low stats, lack of scheming potential, squishiness, and rube Goldberg machine interactions pile on top of that. That said, a minuscule amount of healing delivered by any in-keyword model (so to not have to force effigy/Sloth/Librarian/Emissaries), would go a long way. A 1 heal action or aura on Ligeia maybe? Issue: Interactions that occur too infrequently (Some yet to be witnessed) here are lots of interesting potential combinations and fun interactions across models in the crew, but they never really happen because too many cogs have to turn at the same exact time for the machine to work. More in depth details in the section on models. Possible solution: Loosening requirement and/or increasing ranges could help. A lot of these interactions would be so much more feasible if The Guilty were to be allowed to be considered an enemy model when resolving abilities/triggers/attacks from friendly Tormented. Interactions discussed in the model-specific section below. ------------------------The models Jack: Print him. Doesn’t match the action efficiency of many other masters, but has a great combination of Damage, accuracy, stats, triggers, and both of his bonus actions are amazing. The Punishment redesign has made the trigger from something you never wanted to declare, to something you’re specifically attacking for. One itty bitty adjustment I’d like is: Please have punishment and/or Drawn to Betrayal ignore models and terrain during the push. It’s too easy to get the crew stuck into markers/models/terrain. Montresor: Print. Hanged: Print. Jaakuna: Print. Currently The only reliable way of making Shafted and Undertow Happen. In the perfect scenario, you’d use the Drowned to throw a 1 of masks at her, pulling everything within 3 of her towards her, dealing 1 damage and applying staggered due to Shafted. She doesn’t get the distracted/posion as the incorporeal negates the damage requirement for those conditions to be applied. Hasn’t happened yet, but I’m waiting for the day. It hurts that she doesn’t get the heals she has access to in Urami. But all this has nothing to do with any weaknesses of the model itself. Again, print. Lady Ligeia: She’s kinda swingy. If the opponent doesn’t get to her, she can really oppress a game. Thankfully, she usually gets 1 good turn of that and explodes. All in all, fair. That said, she could be the scheme runner Tormented deserve if she lost insignificant. It would also be nice if she had an actual useful action like a push or, hear, hear, a teeny tiny heal. Suggested changes: Remove insignificant Give a useful action (tiny heal. Corpse marker generation for Blasphemous ritual would be swell, but I won’t get my hopes too high on that one) Drowned: This sounds very M2e, but I prefer them as cheap-ish summons in Urami. They’re another Mv 4 Df 4 in a crew that seems obsessed with the number 4. If they could more reliably make use of Riptide and Undertow, I would have no complaints whatsoever. Here’s the problem I’ve encountered over and over. These guys have Mv4 and they aren’t incorporeal. I really need to take the concentrate action with these guys which means that, for an entire turn, they move a total of 4 inches barring markers and terrain. You need to concentrate because their attack simply isn’t worth it without blasts, and by the time you reach anything, their target is going to be engaged and/or in concealment. Jack can’t babysit more than 1 model per turn with his pushes and, since I can’t summon these guys where they need to be like I do in Urami, I get very few attacks from them throughout the game. When I do, I have to pick between using my high Mask to get the Riptide + Undertow combo, or giving it to Hanged/Jack to place in base contact with enemy models. My cards go where the points are, and that means not on the Drowned. Since I don’t have to go through so many hoops to apply staggered with a crooked man, I just spend the extra stone and take the latter with the guaranteed condition + blast. I’d rather see these guys have incorporeal than combat finesse (with an anchor?). It won’t make them faster, but they wouldn’t get stuck all the time. For 6 stones there’s not really much to complain about though. Suggested changes: Have Riptide place plain Hazardous markers (for the 1 damage) instead of Hazardous (staggered). This would be more useful for Urami too, since they’d rather deal damage that give out staggered. In a tormented crew, it would add ping damage from the terrain and finally give another way to benefit from shafted. Please give them a built-in mask on Undertow. Right now it’s another of those things you never get to see unless you’re hitting Jaakuna with a low mask. Mv 5 Crooked Men: This is maybe the model that bugs me the most. Everything on its card seems to tie up the crew together nicely, but the pieces never truly fit together. This model is used by @matt and @Kyle in their experiments, where poor unaware players try to complete a puzzle with missing pieces and their reactions are observed to design the perfect frustration threshold. I actually think I just heard @matt drop a pencil from the other side of the one way mirror placed in the home of every malifaux player and in every hobby store. You did read all the fine print on the NDA you signed, right? *Waves at spooky mirror* Let’s start with the good. Their attack is great. This is a set-up crew and Jack has a 1 turn delay in between giving out an upgrade and the resulting staggered. Crooked Men fill the gap nicely with their Earthquake attack (assuming they reach the target) Here are all the problems with the Crooked Man: -I’m glad some of the terrifying across the crew is gone, but these guys were already easy to kill to begin with. Now they’re free kills. They need, at the very least, +1 health. Any reason so many models in keyword are stuck 4, with this guy having no form of mitigation outside of HtW? In short, they’re always competing with Ligeia for first dead model of the match. They’re very, very good at dying first. - They’re sooooo slow. They were miners, they should at least have unimpeded. Too much Mv 4 in the crew! What’s the point of bringing down the Mv on enemy models if yours already had that handicap to begin with? - Same issue with the Drowned. At Mv 4, and the ever present -flips from friendly fire and concealment, these guys are going to have that Walk + concentrate activation at least once or twice per game, which means that in those turns they’re going to move 4 inches, reduced by any markers, terrain, intervening models. These guys are hogging Jack Daw’s pushes. These guys are the reason you have to charge your own guys with Jack on turn 1. It’s not as bad for them as it is for the Drowned, as you get the benefit as long as you hit, not suit/moderate damage required. - Let me love the Malifaux Mining Law!!! Let us actually use Shafted! Please let me! On paper, these guys should be able to make the field a dangerous, staggering place, with the combination of Malifaux Mining Law + Shafted. Realistically, your models are terrible at dropping markers, with the best thing you can afford being the Hanged charging your own dudes on low tomes or enemy models on high tomes/burning stones. Give us more scheme marker dropping! Most of the time this action translates simply into chunking a moderate (sometimes severe) crow and getting a scheme marker out of it. The Shifting sands trigger would be a lot more useful if the Dead Outlaw was actually any good at forcing enemy scheme marker drops. Here’s the icing on the cake. For any of this to actually happen, one of your squishiest models in the crew has to be within 6 of the bad guys. These interactions never really occur. Suggested changes: Increase some survivability. +1 Health or literally anything else. Not sure about terrifying, as people hated playing against the crew when almost every model had terrifying. Having Df 4 when you always want to be within 6-8 of the bad guys is really bad. Give these guys a crow on Malifaux Mining Law. They need to stop taking away the moderate crows from Jack and Montresor’s triggers. If they could reliably get a marker out every turn, that would be the only reliable thing they do. Unimpeded or a way to push to markers. Dead Outlaw: Another one in line for the Mr. Squishy contest. His covetous cravings is not worth it unless the crooked man activated first and had a moderate of crows to chunk at Malifaux Mining Law. You don’t want to spend two actions and a 5 to give a single action to something else. Even with the support of the crooked man, he’s using a 5, a moderate of crows, and an action to give out a single action. If he’s using covetous cravings, he can’t concentrate + run and gun to compensate for engagement/concealment. And here’s another tease from the latest patch. The new Too Greedy To Die would actually help Tormented a lot… but it’s not happening unless he’s running and gunning into dangerously close distances and chunking a high Tome, which also competes for Draw Out Secrets. Is it really worth it to charge into death and use a high tome to get a tormented model to push 3? I’m waiting for the day to be able to use At Gunpoint + Buried Grudge, but the Rube Goldberg nature of it, combined with how easy it is to kill these guys, has prevented me from witnessing this greatness. Suggested changes: Have Too Greedy To Die proc on friendly/enemy markers or, if Guilty could be treated as enemy models when resolving actions and abilities of friendly models, they’d be able to actually shoot a guilty with a low tome to make it happen, then potentially being able to make Too Greedy to Die happen and, if you want to invest the cards, manage to have the model engaged with the Guilty kill the Guilty. Currently (as it has always been in Tormented), Too Greedy to Die does not occur. Or you could just give them a built-in tome, although that could definitely become too good, especially for Parker. The Guilty: Alright, let me preface that I did not like the whole discard spam all game long from two guilty, then use Montresor to obey one to do it twice more, with an additional attack with the fast from Sloth/Dead Outlaw. Playing against an opponent that’s just top decking isn’t fun for either player. With that out of the way, these guys have no purpose. Yeah, their damage is good for 5 stones. I don’t need that damage, that’s the only thing the crew doesn’t struggle with. They can still force a discard at range (not sure if too good or not right now), but the crew still has no scheme runner. Their Demise is just a gimmick. Molly was my most tested Master until the rework, I lost count but I’m sure Jack has either passed that or is close to doing so. We’re talking about more than two dozen games. Once your opponent knows how they work, They never get resummoned. No, it’s not a hindrance for the opposing player. Minions are the badasses of the game this edition around, and they’re plenty of capable of doing the last point or two of damage without having to go through any hoops. Things like Blade Rush and Stampede make it trivial. Hard to wound on the model actually makes it easier. The Upgrade they give out increases your hand size, but you often give it up before you ever get to benefit from it because you generally want those models dead. This crew kills things, that’s all it really excels at, and the upgrade punishes you for playing your own game. That said, it’s nice to have another way of giving out upgrades. Anyway, their demise has never really done anything. Suggested changes: By your side, as suggested by @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie could at least make them become scheme runners, and the crew really lacks in that department If the Upgrade worked the way @Kolath has been proposing for months, I believe it would be reasonable for both the Jack player and the opponent. His proposal is the following: If the Guilty could be treated as enemy models by friendly tormented models when resolving attacks/triggers, it would fix the following issues across the crew: Dead Outlaws can use low tomes to declare Drop it and proc Too Greedy to Die Drowned can create Riptide markers through blasts and use a low card to declare Undertow, potentially being able to benefit from Shafted Jack Daw can use them as a jump point with On your heels with Suppressed Memories Even better, Hanged can declare On Your Heels on them with their bonus action, Horrifying Whispers Ligeia can blast through Projected Voice on them Crooked Men can use the markers dropped by them through Drop it for conversion through Shifting Sands, making Shafted more meaningful in the process ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In conclusion In conclusion, I am very weary of the crew printing as it currently is. With so many models in the roster being unable to benefit from what's on their card in most circumstances, and the nearly Mandatory Out Of Keyword hires, I'd hate for this to be the Tara of 3e, where a stack of future upgrades and models are needed to make it do what it was supposed to in the first place. I mean, with proper set-up the crew hits like a ton of bricks, but you're counting on too many variables to do what other killy crews do without all the preparation involved when playing Tormented. There are lots of fun tools that more than make-up for that, if only you got to actually use them. The following changes should be considered at the very least, in my opinion: Essential changes Punishment and/or Drawn to Betrayal (Really should be both) ignore terrain and models during the push. A bit of the essence of the Ghost of Malifaux preserved, and the crew isn't countered as easily by terrain and especially markers. This is maybe the single most important change in the crew. It's too easy to counter right now, especially when declared in ressers. Crooked man a bit faster and a bit less squishy. Even a single point of health would help. Change Riptide to plain hazardous damage. Let the staggered come from Shafted. Change the requirement of Too Greedy to Die. It's too strict and unrealistic right now. Those pushes could really help the crew a lot. Ligeia loses insignificant. Could use a 1 point heal. Re-design Demise on Guilty or take it out. It has never worked since closed beta. @Kolath's change seems fair for both sides. Give them a way of moving around a bit more. The crew could use a single scheme runner that isn't Mv 4.
  16. Yeah, this thing. It made sense when these guys were some of the most toxic models in the game at 5 stones. It looked like a way to balance them out. That is, if you want to keep the +1 hand size, you'd have to never kill the model that took the guilty off the table. Now it's just yet another Tormented caveat that, on top of all else, is punishing you for doing the only 1 thing the crew can manage. Namely, killing things. Do you have any data that supports the opposite? If you want some of the information from my games, I have at least 7-8 batreps of my own on Jack alone in the dedicated section, with the latest one gone up yesterday. And it's more than 25 games, that's just an approximately safe number to claim that I know, for sure, I've gone over. I'm sure there are other battle reports. I'm not sure how you could balance around the concept of something happening in less than 8% of the total games you play. Yes, and I've always been a vocal advocate or removing all of that NPE. I never liked palying against an opponent that has no hand to affect the outcome of the duels in the game, I never liked Jack doing min 5 Dmg, and I'm glad some of the terrifying has been lifted from some models in the crew. When the developers addressed that, I was enthusiastic. The re-balancing also added stuff to the cards to promote different gameplays, with riptide markers helping giving out staggered and displace models, Malifaux Mining law setting up staggered mines around the crooked man, and extra movement coming from the Dead Outlaw. It's all great but... It does not happen. Having the Guilty considered an enemy model (even if just for triggers) would actually let you see a hell of a lot more of that. Especially if the resummon happened like @Kolath has been proposing for months now. Now it's a +1 hand size that you don't really get before turn 3, and will end as soon as you kill that model, often netting you a total of 0 cards that game. with a <8% resummon rate on top of that, I don't really know what their gimmick is contributing to. If you could treat the guilty as an enemy model, things that never procced before would start occurring. It's frustrating to have models that read like a lot of fun but never really get to do anything but crawl at Mv 4 and do damage before they inevitably explode. No one wants the crew to be an NPE for anyone, but that should include the player manning the crew.
  17. God yes. If that were the summon mechanic and you could at least just declare triggers against guilty (and guilty can decide not to attach upgrades) as if they were enemy models, it would be a much, much smoother crew. Considering how much set-up this crew needs for everything, I can't see that as being a disproportionate benefit.
  18. The Guilty don't currently fill any role for the crew. Anything added or removed right now would need testing, that's why making a single change that can address many issues is better than the other way around at this point. Guilty were oppressive and too effective for their cost, now they're something the crew doesn't need. The resummon has a ton of value? I played nothing but Jack for the past month, and very frequently since closed. I'm way past the 25 game mark. The summoning happened 2 times. It's a game full of conditions and minions, that's how they're going to die. Once people face them, that trick's gone. I heard the " It's a good deterrent" argument and that's what I told myself every game, but it isn't. A minion is going to do that last point or two of damage and, ironically, hard to wound helps with that. If it's something that's just not supposed to happen, then it shouldn't be on the card. Just like shafted + Malifaux mining law, or the undertow + riptide marker, or too greedy to die, or At gunpoint.... I get the game has to be interactive, but I have to be able to use my crew too. Right now Guilty do ok damage if I use other models to set up their attack. The model should be helping the crew, not the other way around. I like @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie idea of giving them "by your side", but then I'd like to see the other models be tweaked on their own. Is it really better to print a crew with less than half the keyword being worthwile? I mean, I'm all for each individual model being addressed on its own if that's where you the developers want to go. I'll make a list of abilities and interactions (and any other blatant issues) that happen less than once in 6-7 games after work. I haven't played with or against any other crew that has so many things that never happen.
  19. This one's a bit rushed, and the turn by turn descriptions are what I wrote as I played the game, no time for embellishments. Wedge Deployment – Plant Explosives Breakthrough Dig Their Graves Take Prisoner Deliver a Message Vendetta ----Kin Ophelia + Inferiority complex 2 Young lacroix x3 Rami Lacroix 6 + Inferiority complex 2 (Vendetta on Crooked Man) Francois 9 Raphael 8 Pere ravage 7 Merris 6 Lacroix raider 5 5 stones ----Tormented Jack – The Whisper 2 Ligeia Montresor – 9 Crooked Man – 7 Guilty – 5 Guilty - 5 Dead Outlaw – 6 Hanged + Grave Spirit’s Touch – 10 (Vendetta on Francois) 6 Stones Turn 1 Bayou Wins initiative and gives me the first activation of the game Jack walks and attacks Ophelia, giving her +1 to the duel and shielded. I flip a red Joker on Damage, Ophelia flips a red Joker on Prevention, with the net result of giving out 1 shielded. Jack pushes 3 due to punishment and attacks Rami, Giving him shielded. Cheat in an 11 to hit, does a net 1 damage total, but applies an upgrade to both models in the end. Jack uses Drawn to Torment to get Monty to come to the Party. Absolutely loving the new punishment trigger Ophelia activates, puts on the hooch igniter, hits Montresor and gets burning on both him and Jack. Ophelia attacks with her custom firearm, burning a mask, hits again, then takes the free hooch igniter attack but gets a black joker on the damage. Discards the upgrade, does 1 auto damage to Jack, then attacks one last time doing moderate + critical strike. End of activation discards a card for strike team, but Rami misses the Shot. At the end of this activation and 2 stones on my side, Montresor is at 6 health with burning 1, Jack is at 4 health with Burning 1. Crooked man activates, tries to get a 6 of crows to feed a marker to the Dead Outlaw, I have to cheat in a 9 to make it happen (this guy should have the crow built in), then walks twice for a total of 8. Rami walks into concealment, staying within 14 of the crooked man, cheats in a high mask on his shot (which has focus due to swagger), then shoots again due to Swift Action. Crooked man is down to 3 health. The Dead outlaw flips a 6 to make Montresor fast, then charges with Run and Gun, flipping a 13 of Crows. Since my stat is exactly 5, Ophelia doesn’t get to flinch, has no cards in hand, and I do 2 damage and give her slow. Finally a good day for the Dead Outlaw Young Lacroix tries a trash cannon against Ligiea, but gets Outflipped. Montresor walks, walks, and charges Rami thanks to fast, doing 2 damage through staggered, and 2 auto damage from Asphyxiation, although I had to burn a stone for a crow and cheat in a 12 to reach the TN. Lacroix Raider shoots Montresor twice, hitting once, doing 2 damage and putting distracted +1 on him. Guilty walks twice and fails at making a discard happen. Pere Ravage fails to fling a bottle, then succeeds at it Ligeia does what she always does and walks twice Guilty Walks twice and can’t reach anything Merris tries to fling 2 bottles, but can’t pass the TN with no cards in hand The Hanged moves twice for 8, and has nothing in range to target with Horrifying Whispers. Really wish I could at least jump to the guilty. Francois charges Montresor, misses twice due to no cards. Raphael concentrates and shoots, but fails due to terrifying and lack of cards Turn 2 Bayou cheats high for initiative. Rami activates, uses quick retreat to disengage from Montresor, then does 2 damage to my crooked man, sending it to 1 and scoring vendetta in the process. He then walks as far as possible from Montresor, which isn’t far because he’s staggered. Guilty charges Ophelia, giving her shielded, and misses the attack. He then forces a discard on Ophelia with his bonus action. Ophelia is engaged with the Guilty, so burns a stone for a mask, shoots with eyes closed, doing 2 damage to the guilty and taking high cards out of my hand. Equips a tar bomb, uses it, flips black joker and red joker together on damage. Then shoots one more time with a mask, doing the last 2 damage on Montresor, who comes back with demise, but the moderate damage on the follow-up tar bomb from the trigger is too much. Montresor is no more. Ligeia moves once, then removes burning from Jack. Francois charges Ligeia, doing 3 damage after incorporeal. He attacks her again to finish her off, but I cheat in my 13 to force a discard + cheat, which doesn’t happen, so Ligeia gets to live a bit longer. Crooked man has 1 health left so he activates and tries to get a 6 of crows to drop a scheme marker for the Dead Outlaw, but fails to do so. Give this dude a crow so he can play with his Dead Outlaw buddy. Anyway, walks, hits a young lacroix with earthquake, giving out shielded in the process. In the end he does a total of 1 damage to the young Lacroix and 1 damage to Raphael, giving out staggered. Why is this guy priced at 7 stones if he can’t reliably reach his targets with Mv 4 and gets punished for getting there, always gets hit with a Df of 4, has to spend moderate crows to do anything meaningful with his bonus action, and has both weak and moderate locked in at 2 damage. No defensive tech whatsoever and no movement tricks. Shafted looks beautiful, but it’s so rare. This guys was unable to kill a single young Lacroix, and has taken 2 turns to get to the centerline and hit something. And this is Wedge Deployment! The Young Lacroix turns around, and hits the Crooked Man with the hooch igniter. The Young Lacroix is at even stats with the crooked man, and flips a 12. Crooked Man is out of the game so now I know I really have to kill Rami to deny the second vendetta point if possible The Dead Outlaw can’t use covetous cravings because the poor crooked man never had a 6 of crows for him. He’s glad his buddy is dead. He concentrates to get around friendly fire, then uses run and gun. Flipping Red Joker! Flip severe damage, doing 3 to Rami due to shielded, but giving him staggered for Jack to play with. I’m trying to draw a decent card through torment all turn long, but so far I have a 4 (I just drew this one), a 3, and a 2 left. Pere throws a bunch of flaming bottles, but I flip high and find out where all my face cards have been. The Hanged tries a hail Mary Horrifying Whisper to place with Francois, but misses. He then walks and tries a Hail Mary Toss the Noose on -flips, knowing that Pere can’t cheat because my opponent has only 1 card in hand and has to deal with Betrayal from Ligeia. The Hanged flips moderate damage, sending Francois to 4, scoring Vendetta. The Hanged just now made it to the centerline, with Wedge Deployment. Let this guys declare “on your heels against” the Guilty. ] Young Lacroix uses a Sparkler slingshot to do 1 damage and put distracted on the Guilty, Dead Outlaw, and Ligeia (who survives it due to incorporeal) A guilty walks twice and forces Rami to discard a card. Merris Flies, uses Bombs away, and does 1 damage to the Guilty, Jack, and Ligeia, then flies again past the centerline. Jack Drops a bomb, uses suppressed Memories against Ophelia, flips a 13 of Masks, places in base contact, and delivers her a nice message. Raphael Charges Jack, but can’t do much with Wp 4 (3 within the aura) against terrifying and an empty hand) Lacroix Raider draws a card and runs straight through the Forests thanks to unimpeded, getting close to my deployment zone. Young Lacroix disengages away, pushing 2 less due to disengaging strike. Then blasts a hooch igniter on Ligeia, killing her, and putting 1 burning through the blast on the Guilty, who disappears at the end of the turn. Once again, Demise didn’t happen. Let friendlies proc it. At this point I have 4 models left and Jack Daw struggling to stay alive. Let’s see. Score: Daw: 1 For Plant explosives, 1 For Vendetta, 1 for Deliver the Message Ophelia: 1 for Vendetta, Turn 3 Ophelia activates, uses the Tar bomb against jack (since damage tracks don’t matter much against him), it gets stoned but he’s staggered. She attacks twice more, with a disparity of 2 in stat at least every time. After 2 moderates Jack is dead, and the Dead Outlaw eats 2 damage from the Tar bomb due to the mask trigger from the Red Joker Ophelia cheated in against Jack. I have 3 models left, 1 of which is close to dying (and at Df 4). Guilty reaches Rami who’s at 3 health, attacks him twice, doing a total of 2 damage over two attacks due to shielded. Rami survives at 1 health. Rami uses quick retreat and shoots the Dead Outlaw twice, who happens to have Df 4 and be of bigger size, granting Rami +1. I don’t have cards high enough to make up for the difference, and 2 min damage shots finish the guy off. At this points I have only 2 models left and my opponent’s crew is swimming in activations. I call it here. Turn 3 Score: Daw: Plant explosives 1, Vendetta 1, Deliver a message 1 = 3 Ophelia: Plant Explosives 1, Vendetta 2, Breakthrough 1 = 4 Projected final score: Daw: Plant Explosives 1, Vendetta 1, Deliver a message 1 = 3 Ophelia: Plant Explosives 3, Vendetta 1, Breakthrough 2 = 6 Thoughts I’m really short on time lately so I won’t be able to get into details as usual, I’ll make one last Tormented-centered post tomorrow with a model-by-model analysis. So, in short: Tormented The crew does not offer enough to justify and compensate for the low stats across the board. No matter what crew I’m playing against, my 6-8 stone models are getting pelted by 2-3 stone models with stat 4. When young Lacroix and Daydreams give you a hard time passing opposed duels, there has to be something wrong. The crew can potentially have very good card draw but, given the requirement, it doesn’t happen as often as you would think. When you consider that you’re using some of those to heal up Jack Daw, Tormented card draw isn’t as plentiful as it is in other crews that focus on that. I don't get what this crew is getting for trading away mobility, healing, defenses, and scheming. What's the point of reducing the opponent's models Mv by 2 if your own crew starts at that value in the first place? I believe a lot of that would be ameliorated if the Guilty could be considered as enemy models during attacks/triggers/abilities. Having Jack and/or Hanged be able to use on your heels on Guilty would let you gain a boost in mobility at the cost of suits, actions, and damage to your own models. A fair trade if you ask me. More on this in the following thread: The Stat differential in this match was felt very heavily, with many of my actions ending up benefiting my opponent more than myself. With so much Df 4, no healing, no summoning, and mitigation only on a few models, all that shooting at +2 stat was painful. Tormented can create a situation where they’re attacking at +2 stat, but that usually requires the application of an upgrade/staggered condition, and then following it up with an attack that targets Mv. So you pretty much start the game where duels are at +1/+2 against you, then you play catch-up so that you can impose the same differential on the opponent. When you do, it really hurts though. Models that are great are: Jack Daw (New Punishment is sweet. I wish this trigger and Drawn to Betrayal ignored models and terrain during the push. It’s a slow, clumpy crew, and they get stuck into each other and into terrain a lot) Montresor Hanged Jaakuna (Especially with Shafted) Models that are lacking are: Crooked Men – They don’t get any use of Malifaux Mining Law outside of the “I can dig it” trigger. If they don’t have the crow for it, then the Dead Outlaw can’t be using covetous cravings without giving up 2 actions to give a single extra action out. They’re Mv 4. The crew can offer some pushes, but severe terrain greatly reduces the effectiveness this edition. They’re Df 4 Their only defensive tech is Hard to Wound at 7 stones Shafted is great on paper and I really want to make use of it, but the crew doesn’t drop enough scheme markers to have it combined with Malifaux Mining Law. They’re the most reliable source of staggered in the crew, but they explode so fast that you won’t use it too often. Ligeia – Walks all game. Very annoying if you can keep her alive. Great, great aura. Would help the crooked man and the dead outlaw if she were significant. If she could heal a single point of damage (and I mean 1), it would help the crew a lot. The crew takes hits easy and fast. Ironically the fastest model in your crew, yet it can’t drop markers. Drowned – They’re good if you combo them with Jaakuna, otherwise leave them home. If they could treat Guilty as enemy models, you’d be able to actually get riptide markers on the board. Yet another Mv 4 model that needs Master support to move forward. There’s only so much Jack can Push Models that are pointless are: Guilty – A recursion mechanic that doesn’t happen, doesn’t fill any niche the crew needs. Does good damage for cost, but crew doesn’t need it. The crew needs mobility/scheming/healing. Let these guys count as enemy models when resolving abilities and attacks, and you’ll finally see a “Too Greedy to Die” proc, and you’ll be able to use low masks to have the Hanged jump to them. For 5 stones they’re good, but they don’t do a single thing the crew needs. For any role you want them to fill, there’s a better option (and that’s saying a lot seeing how many Tormented models just aren’t worth picking). Dead Outlaw – This game they hit on 2 attacks, flipping a 13 of Masks on one, Red Joker on the other. Then they exploded. They were only able to use covetous cravings when the Crooked Men had a moderate of crows. Yet another Df 4 model. I have never, ever, had “Too Greedy to die” happen while playing Tormented, and I’ve played a lot of Tormented. Most of the time I only get 1 attack out of these guys since I have to concentrate for friendly fire. That also means that if I concentrate, I can’t use covetous cravings or be unable to attack that turn. Then what am I bringing these guys in for? Too squishy, Covetous Cravings / Too Greedy to Die / Drop it / At Gunpoint are all so situational that you never really know what this models is going to actually be able to accomplish. This crew hates burning/poison. Could use an in-keyword model with “Blow it to Hell”. Dead outlaw? Upgrades that hand out ruthless bypass most of the crew’s defenses. Anyway, Instead of getting ranty I’ll defer further comments to the more in-depth post tomorrow Kin I’ll try to have my opponent chime in later. It looks like Kin runs out of cards fast. The Lacroix raiders help with that, but they’re not particularly amazing otherwise. Ophelia was amazing. Being able to use a trigger to disengage on a simple duel, doing good damage and handing out shielded in the process, and being able to take two attacks per actions (with masks) really make her feel like a Master. She’s action efficient, but very card hungry. A lot more resilient that she looks like at a first glance. The arsenal upgrades aren’t particularly destructive, but they’re flexible and fun. The crew hands out burning reliably enough that Tar Bomb was a looming threat, and it did blow up poor Montresor. Having different attacks to choose from that target different stats is great. The ability to chunk out the upgrades for more ping damage really makes Tormented cry. Rami is really good for 6 stones, although he’s not hard to chase down. You just have to make sure to finish him off or he’ll just walk away when he activates next. Raphael didn’t do much. He’s got a bit of the M3e shooting issue. If you don’t ignore friendly fire/concealment, shooting is resource intensive and often inefficient. If you do ignore all that, you’re getting lots of low investment damage out. He ignores concealment, so he’s halfway between those two extremes. Didn’t impress me. Pere Ravage, Merris, and the young Lacroix were cleaning out my hand as tormented can’t handle the ping damage and burning from those shockwaves. By the way, shockwaves are a more reliable discard mechanic than what Tormented have. Anyway, although annoying, these models never felt oppressive in any way. Actually, with very limited card draw, Kin can’t get many of the TN on the simple duels to go off. Francois is solid, with a very accurate attack, flurry, and decent damage spread. Showdown didn’t come into play. Inferiority Complex was excellent against Tormented.
  20. "Other friendly tormented" as a clause could protect against abuses in future releases and potential ones now. I don't see currently anything that would be really game-breaking within Tormented though.
  21. I guess "Other" can be added in there. It's really a line added to the card. The other two options are to leave the crew as is, with abilities/triggers/interactions that never actually happen, or look at what's wrong with each individual model and make changes all across. Given the time left, I'm really in favor of the most parsimonious change. Have any of the Tormented players actually seen riptide markers on the table interact with undertow? Have you actually gotten any benefit from undertow at all? What about Too Greedy to Die? Has it ever procced in a tormented crew? At gunpoint? Have you seen a Guilty be re-summoned against the same opponent after a couple of games? Have you ever benefitted from Shafted + Malifaux Mining law? These questions are not directed to you @TheJoyInGaming, by the way. It's more for the community as a whole. A keyword full of models that get to use their specific tricks once every 6-7 games (if you're lucky) isn't something we should see printed in the first manual of a new edition, I think. Having the Guilty treated as an enemy model would remove the "Rube Goldberg" aspect of it entirely. You'd have to bash your own model, but of you wanted to use something, you reliably could.
  22. And the Dead Outlaws would have a job too as a side effect, and the Drowned will stop being strictly better in Urami and depend entirely on having Jaakuna on the board to be worth anything. Now they'd have another good interaction with a Tormented model. It's unorthodox, for sure, but it "unclogs" the Tormented crew, letting the models actually do stuff that's on their card. You'd finally see riptide markers, you'd finally see the Guilty resummoned (without increasing hand size), you'd finally see "Too Greedy to Die" happen, you'd have markers for Mining Law/Shafted, the Hanged could move around. Seriously, after months of looking at what the cards "could do" and see the models on the table never doing it, it would be refreshing to witness these interactions happening.
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