Nekima Crew Essentials/Builds

[Bisounours]

Returning player here looking to get started in 3E with a Nekima crew.  I've done a fair amount of searching on here, reddit, and various other sources but have found fairly minimal discussion on Nekima in 3E.  What discussion I have found hasn't really focused on what models she likes to bring to the table. Maybe because her keyword is fairly small and it seems obvious to everyone else but with her fairly expensive minions I've been having a tough time making lists before I get into purchasing. So maybe you guys can help me out with a few questions!

1. What are Nekima's essential hires that make up the core of her typical crew?

          - Is it worth hiring both Mature Nephilim despite the steep cost? What kind of mix of BBS and Young should I be bringing to a table?

2. What Keyword models should be avoided? 

          - Are Tots and Hounds ever worth taking? Is it worth running Hayreddin over a second Mature? Lelu and Lilitu seem to be often disregarded in 3E.

3. What Versatile/OOK models synergize with or fill in gaps in her normal crew?

           - Hinamatsu seems like a great option to get another tanky beater but also providing a lure to help launch Nekima into the opposing crew at the end of turn 1. Angel Eyes could provide some ranged support to an otherwise completely melee crew.  Are there any other OOK models that help speed up or buff Nekima that are worth taking?

4. How many stones do you find yourself running with Nekima?

           - Her crew seems fairly Minion heavy and Nekima seems destined to die fairly early in most matches. Does this lead to running a fairly small stone pool in most games?

Bonus - Anyone found a good stand in model for the Blood Hunter?

 

If anyone has any experiences to help answer these questions it would be a great help to getting me started into getting a crew together. Thanks!

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've not played Nekima, only against here, but I'll attempt it here!

1. I personally think 1 Mature feels like the best number. If you take two, the opponent can focus fire all your size two stuff down before taking down the mature, ensuring you can't grow any. If you take 0,  you don't have enough pressure early game. Starting with one means you can just roll out mature neph all game (especially if it has inhuman reflexes, which I have found powerful against me in some matchups).

I'm unsure about a mix of Young and BBS, but instinctively I feel like one young, two BBS is ideal if you can get it. The young can babysit a hound, the BBS can ensure a ton of focus is out the first turn, and load out some corpse markers.

2. Personally hounds seem great to me for efficient interacting, but you have to babysit them. A young nephilim plus one hound makes a good scheme-running team. The moment the hound goes off on its own, it'll die if the enemy has mobility left.

Terror tots... Haven't seen them usefully used yet. Corpse markers are a limited commodity, so using four to grow one model seems like a lot.

Hayreddin I've not faced yet, but his triggers seem ridiculous. I'd definitely try him out.

3. Unsure.

4. Unsure, but I think the small number seems right. If you have Hayreddin, you'll want extra stones for his awesome triggers (necrotic decay turns his attack into min 4+1 damage!!)

There's also a combo of Lelu/Lilitu with 'infinite' healing around Hayreddin, but there is disagreement on whether or not the combo actually works.

[Da Git]

I like 1 Mature to taxi around Angel Eyes/Serena/Lilith/Heyreddin/etc. Then I find 2 BBS are really good for mass focus, growing into matures, scheming, healing. The rest of the crew is made to taste with Youngs/Tuco/Twins/tots. 

[Ogid]

There are a few threads here that could worth a look:

Playstyles:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/146830-servants-of-the-god-empress-unite/ 

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/145245-does-the-dog-die-a-look-at-nekima-playstyles/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147593-hayreddin-leader-viable/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/145765-m3e-nekima-grow-style-help-required/

Models:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147788-lelu-and-lilitu-say-why-you-like-it/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147401-corrupted-hounds-role/

About the models, all are legit with the exception of Tots (only worth when summoned by Hayreddin; outclased by doggies) and Lilitu (some players do like her; but I find her underwhelming) imo. It just depends on the game and your playstile.

 

[Bisounours]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've not played Nekima, only against here, but I'll attempt it here! ...

There's also a combo of Lelu/Lilitu with 'infinite' healing around Hayreddin, but there is disagreement on whether or not the combo actually works.

Awesome. Thanks for all of your thoughts! I'll have to take a look at that Lelitu and Lelu heal chain...

[Bisounours]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

There are a few threads here that could worth a look:

Playstyles:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/146830-servants-of-the-god-empress-unite/ 

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/145245-does-the-dog-die-a-look-at-nekima-playstyles/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147593-hayreddin-leader-viable/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/145765-m3e-nekima-grow-style-help-required/

Models:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147788-lelu-and-lilitu-say-why-you-like-it/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147401-corrupted-hounds-role/

About the models, all are legit with the exception of Tots (only worth when summoned by Hayreddin; outclased by doggies) and Lilitu (some players do like her; but I find her underwhelming) imo. It just depends on the game and your playstile.

 

Yeh I've read most of these and definitely got some decent ideas. I know I'll have to get some games in to figure out which models are worth using. Just wanted to make sure I got some of the core ones to try out first.

5 hours ago, Da Git said:

I like 1 Mature to taxi around Angel Eyes/Serena/Lilith/Heyreddin/etc. Then I find 2 BBS are really good for mass focus, growing into matures, scheming, healing. The rest of the crew is made to taste with Youngs/Tuco/Twins/tots. 

I'll give the one mature a go. Which of the other big versatile or keyword hires do you find you get the most use out of or use the most often? I'm pretty keen on Angel Eyes but both Heyreddin and Serena also seem good. Do you find Serena gets enough work done without Nightmares to attack from?

[LexLock]

Always take Inhuman Reflexes on Nekima, other than that my auto-includes are two Black Blood Shamans.

Wicked Dolls are better than Corrupted Hounds and pair well with Vasilisa (you can generate enough of your own corpses with your totem and BBS, so don't use dogs).

If you want to alphastrike something really hard take two Wicked Dolls with Ancient Pact and use a Rougarou to push Nekima up 12" at the end of turn 1 and then try to get Initiative turn 2 with Ill Omens +2.

[Bisounours]

26 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Always take Inhuman Reflexes on Nekima, other than that my auto-includes are two Black Blood Shamans.

Wicked Dolls are better than Corrupted Hounds and pair well with Vasilisa (you can generate enough of your own corpses with your totem and BBS, so don't use dogs).

If you want to alphastrike something really hard take two Wicked Dolls with Ancient Pact and use a Rougarou to push Nekima up 12" at the end of turn 1 and then try to get Initiative turn 2 with Ill Omens +2.

Alpha strikes? Now we're talking!

How often do you find yourself using Vasilisa? You can actually grow in one turn by having Vasilisa double a bonus action on a nephilim right?  I've seen a number of posts mentioning wicked dolls over hounds and have definitely found the idea intriguing.

[Maniacal_cackle]

So for instance, something like this?

Nekima Puppets (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  Nekima
Totem(s):
  Blood Hunter
Hires:
  Vasilisa
  Mature Nephilim
  Young Nephilim
  Black Blood Shaman
  Black Blood Shaman 2
  Wicked Doll
  Wicked Doll 2

Upgrades to taste. The number of movement bonuses is fabulous, and the whole team can start out with three focus pulses. If someone let's themselves get caught by Vasilisa, they could be slowed to a crawl for the rest of the game.

Summoning dolls and stitched is a nice bonus too!

[Bisounours]

18 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So for instance, something like this?

Nekima Puppets (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  Nekima
Totem(s):
  Blood Hunter
Hires:
  Vasilisa
  Mature Nephilim
  Young Nephilim
  Black Blood Shaman
  Black Blood Shaman 2
  Wicked Doll
  Wicked Doll 2

Upgrades to taste. The number of movement bonuses is fabulous, and the whole team can start out with three focus pulses. If someone let's themselves get caught by Vasilisa, they could be slowed to a crawl for the rest of the game.

Summoning dolls and stitched is a nice bonus too!

This looks like a very fun list. I’m sold! Although probably worth throwing 2 of those stones into Inhuman Reflexes for Nekima to try and keep her alive for a bit longer after her alpha strike.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Bisounours said:

This looks like a very fun list. I’m sold! Although probably worth throwing 2 of those stones into Inhuman Reflexes for Nekima to try and keep her alive for a bit longer after her alpha strike.

I think you throw four stones into upgrades, unless Nekima is really needing them for something? Any mixture of inhuman reflexes and ancient pacts seems reasonable to me.

I'd be curious about the Rougarou build someone mentioned.

[Bisounours]

23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think you throw four stones into upgrades, unless Nekima is really needing them for something? Any mixture of inhuman reflexes and ancient pacts seems reasonable to me.

I'd be curious about the Rougarou build someone mentioned.

I think I’ll have to try out the rougarou alpha sometime for sure. Or maybe hinamatsu could be enough depending on the board and how your opponent moves.

Would it be crazy to remove the mature nephilim in your list for Hinamatsu? Really the only Nephilim support to be missed on Nekimas card is her aura for free attacks on their death. So maybe she’s a decent stand in master for puppets? Hinamatsu with Vasilisas tempting threads aura and healing seems pretty tempting...

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Bisounours, sounds like it is worth a shot to me!

The main reason I put the Mature in there is to have early game beaters, but between Hinamatsu and growing a mature turn 1, it'd probably be fine.

[Nagi21]

14 hours ago, Bisounours said:

1. What are Nekima's essential hires that make up the core of her typical crew?

          - Is it worth hiring both Mature Nephilim despite the steep cost? What kind of mix of BBS and Young should I be bringing to a table?

2. What Keyword models should be avoided? 

          - Are Tots and Hounds ever worth taking? Is it worth running Hayreddin over a second Mature? Lelu and Lilitu seem to be often disregarded in 3E.

3. What Versatile/OOK models synergize with or fill in gaps in her normal crew?

           - Hinamatsu seems like a great option to get another tanky beater but also providing a lure to help launch Nekima into the opposing crew at the end of turn 1. Angel Eyes could provide some ranged support to an otherwise completely melee crew.  Are there any other OOK models that help speed up or buff Nekima that are worth taking?

4. How many stones do you find yourself running with Nekima?

           - Her crew seems fairly Minion heavy and Nekima seems destined to die fairly early in most matches. Does this lead to running a fairly small stone pool in most games?

1.  A mature with IR and at least 1 BBS are the only "essential" hires in my experience.  Everything else is as needed, although I've found that Hayreddin is a 99% take due to his tankiness and support abilities.

2. The twins.  They're not good because of the way healing works and Lilitu only has a midrange lure at Def 4.  Tots are worse, since they have min 1 damage and a stat 4 attack, and will not be killing enough to grow before getting squished (and they have protected for some reason... if anything they should be the meatshields for everything else).  The only tots you should see are the occassional Hayreddin summons.  Hounds are actually decent for their cost, but you more or less have to hire at least two (I've had success with 3 and 4), so they're somewhat niche, but they have a place in some games (black blood murder op).

3.  Angel obviously.  Hina does more of what the crew already does, but is tanky which goes against the rest of the crew, so that can be useful.  Hoody doesn't fit particularly well here since we don't lack for large murder machines or speed.  Doppel doesn't bring anything to the table since we're not big on tactical actions that are worth the mimic.  The half-bloods not named Angel eyes or Tuco aren't worth mentioning (they're just bad).  Tuco is a bit niche, but shadows and stealth is always something to contemplate if you can spare.  Dolls are good too.  I've not seen much OOK use because Nephilim are a very good keyword... Nekima notwithstanding.

4.  Usually 6-ish... I'm trying testing with a bit more because like I said Nekima is one of the weaker parts of the keyword and needs help to live, and counter certain conditions. 

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, Bisounours said:

Yeh I've read most of these and definitely got some decent ideas. I know I'll have to get some games in to figure out which models are worth using. Just wanted to make sure I got some of the core ones to try out first.

Ok, a few suggestions:

I'd start with a mix of Matures/Young + 1-2 BBS; the first 2 have high mobility and punch, the third one is a nice support with also high mobility; something like @Kharnage list in the first link. You'll always want somehing able to keep up with Nekima and able to taxi other models forward and BBS pulse focused is really useful (so this is the Core).

The above will be a very straightforward crew and very agressive early, that's the Neph 101. Play well with the distances, rush in and go for the throat or scheme the hell out of the map while picking out weak enemy schemers. I'd include Hayreddin, it may need Matures moving him forward early, but he brings good damage (cheating/stonning crows), extra ping damage and good abilities and Defensive stats.

And I'd also bring a decent cache to keep Nekima and Hayreddin in the table as long as possible, each SS is roughtly 2 extra Wds for them (unless you are expecting irreducible damage). She is hands down the best beater in the faction, so the longer she may stay in the board, the better. And of course, Nekima always with IR.

If more ping damage is needed, then 1 Lelu can be included (as happens with Hayreddin, he needs a Mature moving him forward) or a few doggies.

Lelu/Lilitu have in theory very high sustain together and bring a lot of ping damage and card draw. However Lilitu is slower than average and very glassy with Df4, it's not hard to snipe her and stop that synergy in its track (maybe if the unkillable Lelu-Lilitu-Hayreddin combo is legal, they could be worth a shot). IDK I'm not a fan, try them out...

OOK picks, pick anything you need, but the best picks (imo) are either fast enough to keep up with the crew or small enough to be carried by Young/Mature Nephillims.

Then there are the grow focused lists; it gives extra SS and Focused, but it gives up the initiative and early agression. It's resource intensive (require lots of masks and some rams) so at least 1 Lelu to cicle and draw cards is probably a good idea if you plan to grow more than 2 models or don't want to risk having to use SS to get the suits required. AFAIK they aren't popular lists for Nephilim players; I'm not sure if it's a playstyle thing or if they aren't as good as the rushy lists. The more straightforward (and probably the better) grow list would be 2BBS into 2 Matures in turn 1 to be ready to fully commit to attack in turn 2.

In theory stressing your resources a lot you could grow 2 Matures in turn 1 and 2 Youngs or a Lelu/Lilitu pair in turn 2, adding also the effigy with the fate upgrade for a turn 3 net increase in SS value of 18. But that's quite greedy and it's also untested, it's up to you to try.

Hope it helps!

9 hours ago, Bisounours said:

Alpha strikes? Now we're talking!

How often do you find yourself using Vasilisa? You can actually grow in one turn by having Vasilisa double a bonus action on a nephilim right?  I've seen a number of posts mentioning wicked dolls over hounds and have definitely found the idea intriguing.

About alpha strikes, for that you'll definitely want 2 Ancient Pacts for the +2 to initiative; the idea is double activate Nekima (last activation of a turn + first activation of the following turn) and deal as much damage as possible before the other player may react. For that the +2 to initiative let you get/cheat initiative more reliabily.

Vasilisa can double bonus action a Nephilim, but Nekima can also feed them with the "fast food" trigger to grow in turn 1 at a cost of slowing down her first turn agression (something you are going to do anyway if you are growing things). Vasi is probably better for growing strategies in non Neph lists.

Dolls have Stealth so they are harder to get rid off than dogs from afar, have creep along bonus action and if Vasi is included, she may recicle the scrap; so yes, as scheme runners they are better than dogs (but mind that Vasi+Dolls will also reduce the models you can bring to attack early in the game, which is usually a big deal for Nephs). Doggies are cannon fodder, much better to go with the rest of the Nephilim crew, they can be droped with the trigger in "Fly with me" to ping damage, Black Blood Pustule can be used in them (note Hayreddin swift action trigger), if they die (even from a friendly effect) Nekima will get a free attack and the crew a corpse, and they are cheap AP to interact... It depends on what you need.

8 hours ago, Bisounours said:

I think I’ll have to try out the rougarou alpha sometime for sure. Or maybe hinamatsu could be enough depending on the board and how your opponent moves.

Would it be crazy to remove the mature nephilim in your list for Hinamatsu? Really the only Nephilim support to be missed on Nekimas card is her aura for free attacks on their death. So maybe she’s a decent stand in master for puppets? Hinamatsu with Vasilisas tempting threads aura and healing seems pretty tempting...

Hinamatsu is a solid model so if she fits the pool, you can bring her no problem. Or any other Sz1-2 / very fast Sz3 model; there are very good options in the faction (Candy, Serena, Dopleganger, Angel Eyes or the Rider to name a few). Just be mindful to not let her wander too close of Nephillims in combat or they will bleed all over her and ruin her expensive kimono (and Wds bar); however for that I'd consider dropping a Young, you'll want matures to move her forward so she may keep up with the crew.

To alpha strike with Nekima anything that gives her free movement would work. A cheaper alternative could be the effigy; it is Sz1 so 2 youngs can Fly with me it forward 12'' and then the effigy may use Lure twice to move her also 12'' forward. Or even an Aversion may give her around a 11'' headstart (charge forward and cheat heave for 7.2'' free movement and use Frigtening Reminder for another 4''; she will get 2 damage that will regenerate and Aversion will get 1 damage, but she still has 1 AP to move forward), not sure how well it fits the crew tho.

[LexLock]

There are other ways to push something up the board turn 1 but I am a big fan of the out of keyword Rougarou.

The Rougarou will never need any cards to do what you want turn 1 and if you're messing around with Black Blood Shaman focus spam you're gonna need masks already, so you don't want any more pressure on your hand. Even if you double black joker (somehow) Nekima is still going 12" up the board.

You get an underbrush marker anywhere on the board and your squishy AF melee crew has flight so they can ignore it, anyone who's played as or against Titania knows how annoying these can be in a chokepoint.

Deadly pursuit means that even if you double push something turn 1 you can still get a little closer to the action.

And finally, if you have cards Rougarou hit as hard as Nekima. If you get a high ram or mask or use focus to cheat their damage flip, they have the same severe 6 as Nekima does and with Flay they can hit that severe on targets that she can't.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, LexLock said:

And finally, if you have cards Rougarou hit as hard as Nekima. If you get a high ram or mask or use focus to cheat their damage flip, they have the same severe 6 as Nekima does and with Flay they can hit that severe on targets that she can't.

Heresy! The "true" Nekima damage track is 4/6/7

Rougarous are great; the only problem in Nephs is the Sz3 that make them uncarriable (plus Black Blood). But they are fast enough to catch up latter, pack a punch and the BBS Focused is great in their damage track; it's a legit pick.

[Kharnage]

I'm sure you've read my list elsewhere, but the Double-Mature build 
Nekima w/ IR
Hayreddin w/ IR
Mature w/ AP
Mature w/ AP
Black Blood Shaman
Blood Hunter
7 stones
Is what I have the most success with. Crazy fast, and all but guaranteeing initiative due to double Ancient Pact AND low model count, it's super useful. You end up running schemes with effectively 12 stone models, but I haven't really regretted it. Double-shaman builds found disfavor with me because turn 1 engagements define my games, and sitting around in the deployment zone haka dancing instead of aggressing or getting to critical parts of the board can cost you, but the singleton Shaman hands out plenty of punch to his models who are then ready to roll. The grow builds of turning both shamans into Matures sounds cool, but they're 100% going to start turn 2 with 6 wounds, and also it probably cost me master AP to get them big, instead of Nekima hauling that giant sword around, she's still in my deployment.
That being said, play Nephilim how you wanna play it, diversify those builds. Not that it doesn't instill pride in me to see others using the double-mature build, but list diversity is fun too. 

[santaclaws01]

18 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

There's also a combo of Lelu/Lilitu with 'infinite' healing around Hayreddin, but there is disagreement on whether or not the combo actually works.

I'm clearly not active enough on the forums these days if this came up without me seeing it until now.

[Gnomezilla]

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I'm clearly not active enough on the forums these days if this came up without me seeing it until now.

Most of the heal-on-death infinite loops get immediately bonked on the head and dragged off to the rules forum to check against the general timing chart. Black blood going off in step 5, before initial death check at 6A, is the root of the problem here, if I recall rightly.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

Most of the heal-on-death infinite loops get immediately bonked on the head and dragged off to the rules forum to check against the general timing chart. Black blood going off in step 5, before initial death check at 6A, is the root of the problem here, if I recall rightly.

Rules forum is really the one place I never skip over reading stuff, and don't remember seeing anything about it there. I might've also just completely forgot about it, who knows.

[Adran]

35 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I'm clearly not active enough on the forums these days if this came up without me seeing it until now.

You took part in the discussion. It was a follow on from damaging models past 0. I think it was decided that if you have both Lelu and lilitu in Heyriddens aura, as lomg as they aren't fully healed, they are immortal (You hit one, it black bloods the other, healing it and that causes the first one to get healed). It was October time in the rules forum.

[santaclaws01]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

You took part in the discussion. It was a follow on from damaging models past 0. I think it was decided that if you have both Lelu and lilitu in Heyriddens aura, as lomg as they aren't fully healed, they are immortal (You hit one, it black bloods the other, healing it and that causes the first one to get healed). It was October time in the rules forum.

Oh, that. I assumed infinite healing was an infinite healing loop.

[Ogid]

It was this thread (there is also a link to it in the second page of the Lelu/Lilitu thread posted above):

[Bisounours]

7 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

1.  A mature with IR and at least 1 BBS are the only "essential" hires in my experience.  Everything else is as needed, although I've found that Hayreddin is a 99% take due to his tankiness and support abilities.

2. The twins.  

3.  Angel obviously.  Hina does more of what the crew already does, but is tanky which goes against the rest of the crew, so that can be useful. 

4.  Usually 6-ish... I'm trying testing with a bit more because like I said Nekima is one of the weaker parts of the keyword and needs help to live, and counter certain conditions. 

I was definitely planning on picking up the starter to get my hands on Angel. A bit bummed the halfbloods arent too great because I do like their models. Maybe They'll get an uptick from people's assumptions that they'll be a keyword in Explorers. Thanks for all of the info. It will definitely be helpful!

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ok, a few suggestions:

I'd start with a mix of Matures/Young + 1-2 BBS; the first 2 have high mobility and punch, the third one is a nice support with also high mobility; something like @Kharnage list in the first link. You'll always want somehing able to keep up with Nekima and able to taxi other models forward and BBS pulse focused is really useful (so this is the Core).

 

Focus seems like it has really picked up in this edition and become a big part of a lot of crews. I'll definitely try running a couple BBS to get the hang of it. Thanks for all the info!

7 hours ago, LexLock said:

There are other ways to push something up the board turn 1 but I am a big fan of the out of keyword Rougarou.

The Rougarou definitely look fantastic and so do their models. I'll definitely keep an eye out and see if I can pick some up after I get used to the keyword stuff.

3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I'm sure you've read my list elsewhere, but the Double-Mature build 
Nekima w/ IR
Hayreddin w/ IR
Mature w/ AP
Mature w/ AP
Black Blood Shaman
Blood Hunter
7 stones

Yeh I REALLY like the idea of the double mature lists. They just seem like such fantastic beaters. Speedy, tanky, and big damage minions that get full benefit from the new upgrade format seems like a lot of fun and a real headache for the opponent. I'll definitely give your list a shot.