Servants of the God Empress, Unite!

[Kharnage]

Hello, fellow Neverborn. It's been entirely too long since I've talked about the best master in the game, and I am wondering, now that M3e has had a little bit of time to simmer, what are other people running for their Nekima crews? Are you even running Nekima crews, or do you think she's uncompetitive?
I myself aim to carve and bleed my way to the top of the local metas, but it will be a long road.
My current usual list is as follows:
Nekima with Inhuman Reflexes
Hayreddin with Inhuman Reflexes
Mature Nephilim with Ancient Pact
Mature Nephilim with Ancient Pact
Black Blood Shaman
Blood Hunter
7 stones.
The initiative buffs, focus pulse, and combat finesse in combination with solid speed makes for a dastardly combination. I've tried Lilitu/Lelu crews, I've even tried hiring in DMH Lilith for crews, but none seem to be as quite as reliable as this crew for me. Young are good, but Combat Finesse and Regen 2 keeps those Matures on the table.
What are your thoughts? Are there versatile models I'm missing out on? Crews I might be particularly weak into?

[Gnomezilla]

I’m still wondering whether you didn’t just hand me the means of your own destruction in melee earlier in the week, even if it has much more min2 than I fancy bringing against a 7-stone cache. Have to spend some quality time with the tape measure to be certain of threat ranges. I’m sure Hayreddin is target priority #1, but then that’s nothing new.

[Ogid]

Totally new to neverborn so I'm just curious. That list looks very agressive... Why does that work better for you than 2 BBS spamming focus and growing in turn 2? What is your usual attack plan with that list? Into which creeds/schemes/strategies do you use this list?

[Kharnage]

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

That list looks very agressive... Why does that work better for you than 2 BBS spamming focus and growing in turn 2? What is your usual attack plan with that list? Into which creeds/schemes/strategies do you use this list?

Good questions! Having played the double shaman list for a few games, growth into Matures on turn 2 doesn't feel as good to me for a few reasons. 

First, turn 1 matters. People usually think of it as a setup turn, or a turn where you might get a cheeky shot or two in, but nothing extravagant. That belief is exploitable. In a crew where you have access to what amounts to Ride With Me but on Mv 6 flight models, you can start fights early and potentially throw your opponents quite off balance, and shamans pulsing Focus are good, but if they're what you expect your Matures to come from, you can't start fights early. 

Second, the shamans are in a moment of weakness through turn 1 and start of turn 2. Df and wp 5, 6 wounds, regen 1 is not a tanky lineup. It shouldn't be, for 6 stones and what they're capable of, but all I need is Perdita getting a severe and a ram on an easy straight flip (or whatever's out to hunt you) and you're down a whole Mature. Even if/when they do grow to Mature, they likely have done it through their second use of Blasphemous Ritual, and that still leaves them on 6 wounds at best, ending their turn, still Df 5. They gain Combat Finesse, but that doesn't hinder everyone, and when people see a Mature they weren't prepared for (or at least, one you didn't start with) they target it with great prejudice. 6 wounds go quick. 10 wounds and regen 2 last a lot longer.

Third, shamans can't keep upgrades when they grow, and Ancient Pact is the bomb. Seriously, all but guaranteeing Initiative win is a big deal, and sometimes those cards you get for Nefarious Pact on minions is what you needed to win it. Also I probably flip the black on my Matures twice a game and watching that BJ card mean nothing feels great. 

My usual attack plan is to Fly With Me Hayreddin and/or the Blood Hunter up the map (usually Hayreddin) and try to take at least one attack with each Mature. You only have 6 models, so you likely have pass tokens. Burn them. Doubling up on Ancient Pact usually guarantees (exception is other double-pacting NB and Mah Tucket) an initiative advantage, and you need to force your opponent to move up into the board. Most schemes have some kind of "I must go past the center line or interact with my opponent" component, and forces a foe to move up the board to accomplish those goals. You don't need a big model to go after (though take it if you can), just take anything that can't be defended because their defenders are out of position or have already activated. 

As for which Creeds/Strategies/Schemes.... I am specifically a Nekima enthusiast. I'll play other crews to figure them out,  but Nekima even in 2nd was my first true love, and I'll play her into any set of strategies and schemes, and I've so far found this to be the premiere Nekima crew. And to be honest with you, she's good at enough of them to be fine. Breakthrough, Search the Ruins, Dig Their Graves, any of the "spam scheme markers and/or put them in a certain place" schemes are easily run because they have a movement mechanic on a Free Action. I never take Hold Up Their Forces, Take Prisoner, or if I can help it, Deliver a Message, simply because trying to keep the foe alive for points always seems to cost me more points later on the strategy or other scheme. Killing schemes are obviously fine, though this crew rarely gets to run Vendetta. 

[Ogid]

Thanks for the detailed answer @Kharnage. I'm starting NVB with Dreamer/Pandy, but I'd probably get nekima eventualy.

That rushy style is something I like of this creed. However as a Dreamer player, creeds with some ability to grow is something I like. When rushing isn't that necessary, do you think that a grow strategy like the following would be viable?

Include Candy OOK. Turn 1 Generate 4 corpses with the Pig, Hayedin and the 2 Shamans (3 masks needed); Nekima Hurl Corpse with Fast Food trigger to grow 2 matures in turn 1 (2 Rams needed). At this point the Nephillim player gets 2 matures, 2 focus (1 in Matures);  Candy heals both matures and give 1 or 2 Fasts if crows triggers. Everyone can advance with 1 action (matures with 2 actions thanks to fast).

This first turn is a bit slower and quite hand intensive; but at the start of the second turn, the Nephilim player could have 2 matures with 7-10 life (depending on fast and the heal gotten). And candy is an amazing model that can support with Heals, Fast or pull her weight in combat thanks to self-loathing; Matures or Nekima with Fast could be terrifying.

[Nikodemus]

24 minutes ago, Ogid said:

...or Nekima with Fast could be terrifying.

Reminder that in this edition Fast ups your available actions by +1, up to three max. So no effect on masters in most cases.

[Ogid]

I've been cheking on Euripides and I immediately recalled this thread about Nekima and her Rushy style... Euripides could be a terrific pair with Nekima for an undercover rush:

It feels like a cheese, but versus a crew that need to be rushed from minute 1 (like Yan-Lo or some summoners), Euripides have the potential to enable one of the quickest and more dangerous rushes I've thought about... And with the advantage that as this crew isn't known for that; heavy antirush tech isn't expected. I've thought in 2 possible configurations... but I think the nº2 is the best by far:

 

Crew 1 (extra distance): Euripides, Primordial, Nekima (IR), Hinamatsu (IR), Gigant, Blood Hunter, Lyssa* + 8SS

First turn:

• Start burning pass tokens, activating the Primordial magic, creating a pilar with Blood Hunter + Lyssa at 8'' from Euripides
• Euripides activation: Shattering Surprise (7),  Frozen Domain (6) to place 2 pilars near Nekima and Hinamatsu (this force a Mv flip to avoid 2 damage, but both must be at 2'' or less from a pilar), Move, Frozen Domain (Old Ways or 6) to place 2 pilars up to 24.2'' from where he deploy... so basically a global threat range.
• Gigant: Shattering Shove () Hinamatsu + Shattering Shove (Try to get a  from the damage flip to use Old ways, as Hinamatsu have 2 armor, it may be up to a moderate card) Nekima. For those not familiarized with Euripides: This will place both Nekima and Hinamatsu in the forward pilars that Euripides just set up at the cost of a hit of 2Wds.
• Nekima + Hinamatsu: Terminate the high priority target 🍴

*I think a better option is using a Cyclops instead of Lysa + Blood Hunter, but that cost an extra  in the first turn... which start to sound like too many.

I've left a 8SS cache to protect Hinamatsu and Nekima primarily and to get good cards/triggers secondarily (this requires a lot of suits, so if the luck isn't there, it must be bruteforced with SS; speed is key in a rush)

 

Crew 2 (extra punch): Same crew but BBS instead of Blood Hunter + Lyssa

First turn:

• Same but BBS needs a  to put Focused+1 in the rest of the models and no pilar is created before of Euripide's activation.
• Eurpides activation: Rune-Etched Ice (6) create a pilar 8'' ahead of him, Shattering Surprise (7),  Frozen Domain (6) this time create first the ones in the enemy side to be able to reuse the card, Frozen Domain (Old Ways). This one could place them at 19.2'' from where he deploys.

This second one has the advantage of Growing a Mature in turn 2 (that could also be sent through the Pilars), and sending both Nekima and Hinamatsu with Focused+1... which I think that would outweight the extra 5'' range; however the nº1 may require 1 less  card if the Lyssa pilar is used near of Hinamatsu/Nekima and Euripides movement between Frozen Domains is skiped...

 

I guess this strategy can be harder to do if the other crew uses a model with long range marker removing abilities... but it's really hard to stop the delivery of both models (so at least Nekima could be sent). Theoretically, it could be done in a Nekima crew hiring Euripides and a Gigant, but Nekima crew is know for her agressive style and more anti rush tech could be expected. The amount of models is very low (only 6 in the crew nº2) and there aren't good schemers there; so the rush must succeed or there won't be enough APs to play the scheme game.

Do you think the God Empress will be pleased? 

[Kharnage]

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

Do you think the God Empress will be pleased? 

That is quite the trick Euripides brings to the table! After much deliberation however, I think good, strong wings and a will to kill will remain my favored method to move her up the table. Paying for probably Euripides and a Gigant is 23 stones, which is a pretty hefty investment. Others might disagree!

Regular old Euripides crews can just toss Geryon into a fight though, and that is quite the tactic to look out for, and for that I am appreciative. Know thy enemy is half the fight, after all. 

[Ogid]

6 hours ago, Kharnage said:

That is quite the trick Euripides brings to the table! After much deliberation however, I think good, strong wings and a will to kill will remain my favored method to move her up the table. Paying for probably Euripides and a Gigant is 23 stones, which is a pretty hefty investment. Others might disagree!

Regular old Euripides crews can just toss Geryon into a fight though, and that is quite the tactic to look out for, and for that I am appreciative. Know thy enemy is half the fight, after all.

In a Nekima Crew I agree, the other player will probably expect a highly agressive list; so this trick will meet heavy resistance anyway; in that scenario 5 strong combat models engaging in turn 2 are going to be better than 2 in turn 1. The point of it is caught the enemy with their pants down; that's why I choosed Euripides as the "face" of the crew.

Hehe, Totally, knowing the tricks of your enemies is as important as knowing your own crew

Euripides crew may toss a Geryon through the pilars, but It's not that powerful. Doing it in the first turn will leave the Geryon with 6 Wds and no Focus during 1 enemy activation (he could consume the pilar to get the 2 Wds back if the enemy is out of reach), unless you can throw a Pilar just next to an activated enemy, that Geryon will have to leave the Pilar safety area (so no cover, no heal and no shield... that will leave that model in a very vulnerable position, even if he does some damage; and they may hope to kill some minion, but threaten a henchman or Master with them is harder). It also compete with his good opening move "Shoulder Rush", which may let them advance 12'' while getting Focused+2 (using old ways), ending next to the pilar they push to heal and get the Shield; that's hard to pass. At that point I guess you could move a Gigant and do the teleport trick (it'd burn the shield and the Geryon would get 1 damage; but it'll get in a prime position for turn 2, and with Focused+2).

The big advantage of doing it with Nekima and Hinamatsu in the first turn is:  Nekima will just heal those 2 damage when she activates thanks to regen and Hinamatsu will only get 1 damage thanks to Armor, leaving them in a less vulnerable position; both are SS users, so you can just burn SS to keep them alive while they do their thing; they aren't that reliant on pilars to stay alive, so leaving the pilars behind and go bananas isn't a big deal; and both Nekima and Hinamatsu have the potential to make a higher than average ammount of attacks thanks to having 3 APs for being a Master or Flurry in Hinamatsu Case (Geryons will make 2 attacks at best; Nekima could make 4 and Hinamatsu 6 in the best conditions)... It could be something to keep in mind...

[Adran]

It sounds like a plan that relies on you getting good hands. That doesn't mean its not a bad plan, but wanting at least 2  in hand is something I knew I couldn't rely on, and I would want to make sure I had a plan B.

In your Ideal plan you want a mid , a mid  (These can both be stoned, but you still need a moderate for them to go off so potentially need to use the cards from hand) and 2 other , plus you probably want some cards to support your alpha strike (Hinamatsu wants a flurry at least). for it to have any effect. (Stat 7 is good but if you can't cheat because you have no cards left and your opponent still has a full hand you aren't going to do much).

I like the plan, I just think that it needs that good hand to make it really worth while, and I'm not sure that the list has enough of a plan B for those games when you don't get the hand for that Turn 1 rush. When it works from the Deck, its going to be a hugely scary proposition.

 

 

[Ogid]

Yes... it's a potential very resource intensive opening, that's the only thing it make me doubt about it. However, this crew have Arcane Reservoir and can trade life to reuse cards from the discard pile, the most suit intensive turn is the Eurpides one, but he has Intuition.

Normally requiring that many suits the first turn to pull your one trick movement can be dangerous, but I think this crew may pull it off consistently; specially with his 7 card hand and with 8 SS to redraw 2 cards if needed in turn 1. The key is saving at least 1 low  to be able to cheat the first (or second) attack with the Gigant; those are the ones that must be secured. Not getting the Focused will hurt, but won't stop the rush. Euripides will know what he is going to draw, he can be very efficient with the SS and cards from the hand; and using some actions and Focused to cicle cards to use old ways is another way to increase the chances of getting the right suits.

Focusing in the Crew 2, in detail:

During the first 2 activations (BBS and Primordial), the focus is try to load discard pile for Euripides: Needed a 6+ (Frozen Domain) or a 7+under any 6+ (Runed-Etched + Shattering surprise). Note: Useful versus teams with no long range abilities that may force flips in turn 1.

• Concentrate + Attack with the BBS, that will make him flip 2 cards (around 50% posibilities to get a ) and 1 extra card in the damage flip to try to load the discard pile: You will want to choose a low card in the damage flip that will end on top of the discard pile; but if the right card is fliped with that low card, it may be put on top of the discard pile using the Primordial Magic's Old Ways using Form given to winter (even if that mean make it fail)
• If no luck above. Activate Primordial magic and use Form given to winter (Euripides) to flip; I'd consider attacking Euripides without relenting (if the attack fails, but the attacker card is the one you need in the discard pile, a second attack relenting can be made). If first attack give no useful card, Euripides may be attacked again without relenting and then use his Focused+1 to flip 2 cards in the defensive flip. I'd only try this hard if my hand suck that game tho.
• Euripides thanks to intuition (supposing no loaded card in the discard pile): 
  • 7+: Put it in the first place, use it for Runed-Etched and then Old ways for Shattering Surprise.
  • 7+ but no: Place it first, then cheat or stone for shattering Surprise.
  • 6+: Plan the first 2 abilities to flip it for the 2 Frozen Domains.
  • No 6+: Cheat it from the hand or stone; if you have no luck you'll have to use 2 stones (ouch!) or consider placing 1 pilar near of the models and 1 pilar in the desired location to only deliver Nekima in the first turn.
• Gigant: If there is no  in the discard pile, use Focused (from BBS) to attack Hinamatsu, (again around 50% of getting the ) and it will probably let him get 2 or 3 cards in the damage flip. Then choose the damage flip card with a  to reuse it with old ways; if there is no luck then use the bonus action to flip another card and then attack (so between 4 and 5 cicled cards to get that second suit before having to cheat).

It seems doable... but depending on your hand and luck, you may end using a ton of resources...

[Adran]

I had forgotten Intuition, that certainly smooth's Euripides actions for the turn.

6 minutes ago, Ogid said:

• • Gigant: If there is no  in the discard pile, use Focused (from BBS) to attack Hinamatsu, (again around 50% of getting the ) and it will probably let him get 2 or 3 cards in the damage flip. Then choose the damage flip card with a  to reuse it with old ways; if there is no luck then use the bonus action to flip another card and then attack (so between 4 and 5 cicled cards to get that second suit before having to cheat).

This doesn't work this well. You can't really choose the top card for the discard pile in the damage flip, you will be flipping on a flip so you will keep the lowest to put into the conflict to resolve and discard the others.  I do like the idea of using the bonus action for that extra chance of getting a , but I'm just wary or going that far through the plan and having it fall apart. (Too often was I bitten in the last edition of looking at 9 cards, but not getting any tomes in them).

 

[Ogid]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Too often was I bitten in the last edition of looking at 9 cards, but not getting any tomes in them

You need more offerings in the RNGesus altar!

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

This doesn't work this well. You can't really choose the top card for the discard pile in the damage flip, you will be flipping on a flip so you will keep the lowest to put into the conflict to resolve and discard the others.  I do like the idea of using the bonus action for that extra chance of getting a , but I'm just wary or going that far through the plan and having it fall apart.

mmm... good point, I forget relenting make the duel a tie... then you only have 3 cards to cicle, the lowest in the damage flip, the bonus action and the second attack flip.

I guess that if a   happens in the first damage flip but it's not the lowest card, then you could use 2 consecutive old ways (the bonus plus the second attack); that would bleed out the poor gigant, but if you have no  at that point, it could be worth it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I say test it out and report back!

[Ogid]

Hehe, I'd like but I haven't got those crews, my time for games is very reduced and I'm not very confortable bringing that kind of cheesy/mind games gameplay to my local group yet. Some are in the "I have 1 or 2 keywords and a few Versatiles step" and I don't want to be the asshole that brings the mega rush out of nowhere combo to that meta... yet XD. I'll test it eventualy(TM) tho.

So... try it out my minions and report back! 

[Nagi21]

So my main issue with this isn't that it requires a lot of resources to pull off.  My issue is, when you pull this off, what exactly are you going to have left over to actually commit effective murder?  Not to mention into who?  You mentioned Yan Lo, but he'll be back twice over and you'll be dead by then.  Any resser worth their salt (other than maybe Asami) will live a turn one alphastrike from just Hina and Nekima.  Guild will just turn around and murder you where you stand in the two turns between activations, unless it's Nellie.  Arcanists will love you in their deathballs, since Collette will bail and you'll be completely controlled, and Rasputina will activate the second you show up and drop as many ice pillars as literally will fit.  Gremlins will just squeal away and shoot you with their boomsticks.  And outcasts are usually the ones trying to get to you first so you've just taken away half the work for them.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

So my main issue with this isn't that it requires a lot of resources to pull off.  My issue is, when you pull this off, what exactly are you going to have left over to actually commit effective murder?  Not to mention into who?  You mentioned Yan Lo, but he'll be back twice over and you'll be dead by then.  Any resser worth their salt (other than maybe Asami) will live a turn one alphastrike from just Hina and Nekima.  Guild will just turn around and murder you where you stand in the two turns between activations, unless it's Nellie.  Arcanists will love you in their deathballs, since Collette will bail and you'll be completely controlled, and Rasputina will activate the second you show up and drop as many ice pillars as literally will fit.  Gremlins will just squeal away and shoot you with their boomsticks.  And outcasts are usually the ones trying to get to you first so you've just taken away half the work for them.

This isn't tested yet; but Hinamatsu and Nekima alpha-striking are no joke, specially with a cache of 8 SS, IR, Focused+1 and delivered with full APs. These 2 can deal a ton of damage, plus buterfly jump and 8SS to reduce damage goes a long way keeping them alive. In turn 2 Euripides can teleport with his pilars where needed and a Mature Nephilim will join the party. Hinamatsu, Nekima, Euripides plus 1 Mature and a Gigant sounds as a scary bunch of models to have knocking into your door early.

Versus Yan-Lo for example, a 3 AP Nekima versus a model with Df3 or 4 will be very accurate and will reach her moderate (5) and Severe (6) damage easily, plus the damage of blade rush if there are room to do it (and she has blood for blood just in case); only 2 APs are needed to make him reach 0 Wds. Yan-Lo then can activate manos Reliquary eternal or break 1 Reliquary to survive, she still have another AP to outright kill him or make him discard the Reliquary and Hinamatsu have her 2 APs+Flurry waiting. The Yan-Lo player can make this harder with Ashigarus/Sun Quiang/Komainu, some of the Ascendant (Spirit one for Incorporeal) and burning his cache as damage reduction; but if both model can reach him, that won't make a big difference (Shove Aside the defender and use the bonus attack versus Yan-Lo). Of course this can be defeated, but when Euripides is declared as the leader, the other player won't expect this level of agression; so less defensive tech will be expected (and he may even fail to recognize what is going on with the Pilars until you put the 2 models right in front of him).

But you don't have to go deep and kill the master, you could even send a model to each flank to kill activated models that the other player thought they were safe; the idea is hitting in the first turn something important and dealing as much damage as posible; then keep playing from there.

This have to be done versus crews that might be vulnerable to it, but it won't work into every master or situation of course. Taking this into a MSU bubble for example will be a massive fail, into Ressers with all their defensive tech isn't also a good idea unless it's something like Yan-Lo or Kirai and if picked into Performers then obviously Colette won't be the target (let's asume the player who is using this list knows what he is doing). But a player doesn't have to commit to this list, the idea is picking Euripides into a pool where a standard Savage crew will perform well; and if the other player declares a master that could be vulnerable to it, then this list may be considered. Otherwise you play your standard crew, that's why you make the list after knowing who you are facing.

[LexLock]

Instead of dual mastering it, maybe just hire a Rougarou + Doppelganger and spam intimidating roar on the things you want to alpha strike with. You won't get as far but it won't cost any cards.

[Ogid]

That's another option... less cool, covering less distance, more table dependent (push) and telegraphing from deployment where are you going to send your models tho.

[Sharp_GT]

My feeling is that turn 1 "ALPHA STRIKE" plays are a bad move. Especially in M3e where engagements happen so early anyhow. spending a lot of set up and AP putting a model or two into your opponents deployment just ruins your action efficiency, nevermind the usual concerns of being exposed and unsopported in the lions den. If you're spending any actions to facilitate that, and you opponent can just pivot to attack your models or move away and ignore them on their way to schemes, you're down in the action economy equation. The only times this could be usefull is with a model that can pretty much put itself in place unassisted and you want to play for or bluff breakthrough/power rit ie you use a long range wp attack to unbury dreamer summons, marcus sends a cerberus, zoraida send the firstmate leaping about

[LexLock]

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

My feeling is that turn 1 "ALPHA STRIKE" plays are a bad move. Especially in M3e where engagements happen so early anyhow. spending a lot of set up and AP putting a model or two into your opponents deployment just ruins your action efficiency, nevermind the usual concerns of being exposed and unsopported in the lions den. If you're spending any actions to facilitate that, and you opponent can just pivot to attack your models or move away and ignore them on their way to schemes, you're down in the action economy equation. The only times this could be usefull is with a model that can pretty much put itself in place unassisted and you want to play for or bluff breakthrough/power rit ie you use a long range wp attack to unbury dreamer summons, marcus sends a cerberus, zoraida send the firstmate leaping about

Given that we're playing in neverborn and therefore have access to Ill Omens +2 in any crew, alpha strikes can quickly become back to back activations and decimate your opponents crew before they get a chance to react.

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Given that we're playing in neverborn and therefore have access to Ill Omens +2 in any crew, alpha strikes can quickly become back to back activations and decimate your opponents crew before they get a chance to react.

Also, Mature Nephilim have Combat Finese, so against melee crews they're some of the safest alpha strikers in the game.

[Ogid]

Maybe you are right and this won't work... it's going to be a while until I can playtest this and right now this in my mind it range from bad idea to situationally very good.

The good thing about this strat is you don't have to commit with your attack point until Eurpides activation, at that point the pair can be sent deep or be delivered next to 2 already activated models to kill them with total impunity; not that many model may survive to Nekima or Hinamatsu delivered with full AP in charge range to them. If this succeed in picking off 14-16  worth of enemy models without retaliation, the numerical disadvantage won't be that noticeable.

[Sharp_GT]

Well the issue I usually find with this type of play is that you opponent is going about their business and can have you come to them. None of their actions are wasted getting to your models if they want to attack you back, and if they want to instead pivot away to avoid you they have all of their resources nearby for getting away. The surprise when euripides tosses two beaters into your deployment is mitigated by getting to activate immediately, possibly with a model that can move them away from their target or debuff them.

The flip side is that you're tying up a lot of points (in this case 25-29 plus stones for triggers and defense) so you're probably burning pass tokens waiting to attack as your opponent maneuvers and schemes, and by that point the target you're going for will likely now be well outside the deployment zone so the whole point of dropping something big on your opponent is lost.

The same tricks can be used to guided missle something deadly towards a target, which is pretty useful sometimes, but going all in on dumping over half your crew in SS into the other team usually doesn't work out.

I guess my tldr is this: when your thinking about crazy plays like this put a real crew on the other side of that table in your mind. How do they react, how would you react, what resources do they have on hand? What crews are actually going to be threatened by this, and which are going to thank you for doing them a favor?

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

Well the issue I usually find with this type of play is that you opponent is going about their business and can have you come to them. None of their actions are wasted getting to your models if they want to attack you back, and if they want to instead pivot away to avoid you they have all of their resources nearby for getting away. The surprise when euripides tosses two beaters into your deployment is mitigated by getting to activate immediately, possibly with a model that can move them away from their target or debuff them.

The flip side is that you're tying up a lot of points (in this case 25-29 plus stones for triggers and defense) so you're probably burning pass tokens waiting to attack as your opponent maneuvers and schemes, and by that point the target you're going for will likely now be well outside the deployment zone so the whole point of dropping something big on your opponent is lost.

You defined it quite well here. The bad thing about this strat is having to wait 1 activation until one of the beaters sent is activated; so the debuffing capabilities of the other crew have to be taken in count.

As you got, the idea was sending the higher amount of SS worth of models; that's why the double master plus the big cache. However they don't have to be sent deep into the deployment zone; the idea is doing as much damage as possible, if they used some slingshot combo to advance two 7-8 SS models to both corners and then those model reached the corners and dropped a marker, that's a good target, I could send one model to each flank and just gut my oponent strategy (and models).

2 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

I guess my tldr is this: when your thinking about crazy plays like this put a real crew on the other side of that table in your mind. How do they react, how would you react, what resources do they have on hand? What crews are actually going to be threatened by this, and which are going to thank you for doing them a favor?

Good advice. The counter for this is covering well your models and not splitting much; specialy if there is a good beater not activated until the end of the turn and able to protect all important activated models. If the other player doesn't recognize the potential of this crew and just split his models and activate his important pieces thinking he is safe, then I'll have a golden oportunity to hit hard something valuable for him (not necesarily in his DZ). I'd try to put the pilars in places where the other player have non-threatening models near and I'm in charge distance of my target(s). If the other player recognizes what I'm trying to do and turtle a bit, then it can be akward if he doesn't expose good targets to kill

So this will fail versus bubble crews that will aprecitate not having to lure my model into their killing zone or in pools where splitting isn't favored; sending 2 models, even 2 powerful ones like Hina and Nekima, right into the entire enemy crew is a suicide. I could still kill something, but they will have a few models near to retaliate in T1 and that's not good. Gunlines could be a good target or not, depending on the terrain, these can support each other rom afar so my models will take more damage in T1; but they are usually squishier, which is good.

Crews balanced around being less powerful early and more powerful later are a good target for this alpha strike. Also crews that usually rely in not cheap or even premium scheme runners, pools and strats that favor splitting the crew...

I'm sure this would work as a fun Gotcha versus some players, but I've doubts when playing versus someone that can understand what I'm trying to do and doesn't offer good targets. In that case I'm not sure if the best call would be sending them anyway or transition into a normal game. The BBS may be feeded by Nekima in turn 1 and start turn 2 with a mature with his bounus ready and 8 wds for example...