Lelu and Lilitu. Say (why) you like it!

[Ogid]

Basicaly what title says. When do you consider these models?

Nephilims are glass canons that rely in speed, maneuverability and outdamage their foes to win the battle. Lelu and Lilitu give all these traits up (no flight, no fly with me, pitiful damage tracks) while still being basicaly 7SS models with 0 defensive tech. The Lure is nice (but for just that I can include a Doppleganger), the card draw is useful, and I can see the extra ping damage potential (hindered by the heavy loss in mobiliy). Their shared healing mechanic would be cute if they weren't easy to blow up. I'm having a hard time figuring out when it won't be a good idea to just leave them at home.

[Myyrä]

The models are nice.

Plus you could slap ancient pact on a lelu and have him sit at a corner spanking himself and drawing cards. A bit expensive, but it's a lot of cards.

[solkan]

12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Basicaly what title says. When do you consider these models?'

Nephilims are glass canons that rely in speed, maneuverability and outdamage their foes to win the battle. Lelu and Lilitu give all these traits up (no flight, no fly with me, pitiful damage tracks) while still being basicaly 7SS models with 0 defensive tech. The Lure is nice (but for just that I can include a Doppleganger), the card draw is useful, and I can see the extra ping damage potential (hindered by the heavy loss in mobiliy). Their shared healing mechanic would be cute if they weren't easy to blow up. I'm having a hard time figuring out when it won't be a good idea to just leave them at home.

A Doppleganger is 8+1 SS, Lilitu is 7.  The Doppleganger doesn't have Black Blood, so you can't safely use the Doppleganger to lure into a Black Blood pool party.

Hayradden and the Nephilim growth tree is set up for opportunistic pulses.  You walk a Lelu up near an enemy model that you're going to swarm around, turn on Masocistic Thoughts, and count down the activations until whatever you're fighting melts to death.

You can't put a doppelgänger in that without it melting to death.

 

[Irritated Walrus]

3 minutes ago, solkan said:

A Doppleganger is 8+1 SS, Lilitu is 7.  The Doppleganger doesn't have Black Blood, so you can't safely use the Doppleganger to lure into a Black Blood pool party.

Hayradden and the Nephilim growth tree is set up for opportunistic pulses.  You walk a Lelu up near an enemy model that you're going to swarm around, turn on Masocistic Thoughts, and count down the activations until whatever you're fighting melts to death.

You can't put a doppelgänger in that without it melting to death.

 

The Doppleganger only costs 8 since it is Versatile. 

[Mut]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

The models are nice.

Plus you could slap ancient pact on a lelu and have him sit at a corner spanking himself and drawing cards. A bit expensive, but it's a lot of cards.

The visuals here are fantastic

[solkan]

Franky, the Nephilim play style is probably going to degenerate into "At the end of the encounter, there's a bunch of corpses on the ground and a few new Terror Tots.  But your dudes are dead, so it's okay."  It's like asking "Why are all the flying nephilim jerks that drop their passengers from the air?"  

All of that healing probably won't save anyone, it's just there to make it that much harder to kill things.  I mean, look at the perfect healing synergy set up:

• Hayradden's nearby so the model's in Revitalizing Ichor range
• Opposing player hits a Nephilim model, causing damage and activating Black Blood
  • Any Lelu that heals a point is going to heal a Lilitu; any Lilitu that heals a point is going to heal a Lelu

Probably the important thing would be:

- There's no range on Twinned Soul.

- There's no exclusiveness clause on Twinned Soul.  

So it's more a matter of:

- If all you've got are Young Nephilim, those can be whittled down in a group.  

- If you've got a pack of Lelu and Lilitu, they have to be killed one at a time, especially in Ichor range.

 

1 hour ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The Doppleganger only costs 8 since it is Versatile. 

Details.  🤷‍♀️  It's still a model that's more expensive, and that won't have any protection from the Nephilim doing Nephilim things.

[Ogid]

Ty guys for the answers!

So... to recap:

• Looks nice in the shelves.
• Lelu can go spank himself in a corner for the cost of an Archie.
• They can hug the enemy and bleed.
• The other player can decide to heal you with shockwaves (instead of killing your 0 defensive tech df4 7wds model)

A bit disappointing XD

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Details.  🤷‍♀️  It's still a model that's more expensive, and that won't have any protection from the Nephilim doing Nephilim things.

It loses synergy with the crew, but it has don't mind me, manipulative and disguised plus mimic. That 1 SS extra is really worth it if what the player wants is the Lure (not for Lelu/Lilitu heavy lists... if that is a thing)

1 hour ago, solkan said:

All of that healing probably won't save anyone, it's just there to make it that much harder to kill things.  I mean, look at the perfect healing synergy set up:

• Hayradden's nearby so the model's in Revitalizing Ichor range
• Opposing player hits a Nephilim model, causing damage and activating Black Blood
  • Any Lelu that heals a point is going to heal a Lilitu; any Lilitu that heals a point is going to heal a Lelu

The potential is there, but the problem is that relies in the other player making mistakes; not in the Neph player playing well. Lilitus need to be in that ball and they are easy to kill; plus healing need to heal to trigger twined soul; so you need to put your models in the one shot range to give the other models the chance to heal when they are attacked. And Neph with his BB already invite the other player to do focused attacks...

[Dubh]

Twinned soul doesn't need a trigger. If one heals, the other heals. That's simple enough. Any time one activates, that means they both heal 1. Any time either uses the bonus action Grim Feast, they both heal. 

[solkan]

 

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

The potential is there, but the problem is that relies in the other player making mistakes; not in the Neph player playing well. Lilitus need to be in that ball and they are easy to kill; plus healing need to heal to trigger twined soul; so you need to put your models in the one shot range to give the other models the chance to heal when they are attacked.

 If you think that's how 

Quote

After this model Heals from an source other than Twinned Soul, one friendly Lilitu in play may Heal the same amount.

then I can understand you thinking that Twinned Soul, or any other chain healing effect, would be terrible.

That cannot, however, be how it was meant to work.

An unwounded Lelu activates, its Regeneration goes off, it Heals 1, and that sets Twinned Souls (Lilitu) off so that Lilitu heals 1.  If one does Grim Feast and flips a 4, it Heals 4.  Note that Twinned Souls doesn't say "may Heal the amount Healed."  

[Mac_Atk]

Add in an Eldrich Magic upgrade and Final Veil for more Twinned Soul healing!

These two are about punishing your opponent who failed to put them conpletely down in a turn. Lilitu was down to 2 health and healed up conpletely while bringing Lelu back up at the same time. My Basse opponent just sighed because all his activations were negated.

[Adran]

Card draw is always good, so you can probably always find a use for lelu.

Lelu and Lilitu are Nephlim that rely more on area damage and healing. Althought the damage of Lelu is comparable to a young (2/4/5 vs 2/3/4 with built in poison). The young can do more damage with the right triggers, but a lot of the crew is after those  so they are less likely to get them from your hand.

there are certainly some crews where they will out perform the young nephlim in damage and durability, probably games where your mobility aren't as useful.

They probably aren't your Nephlim plan A when you start the crew, but they are a solid plan b, especially once your opponents start learning how to deal with your plan a.

The fact that you can create them during the game gives a huge amount of options for you to change your plan.

 

Plan B is probably a weaker plan than Plan A, but its much harder for an opponent to counter both Plan A and Plan B. SO I wouldn't leave them at home ever. I might not hire them all that often (Urami, Almagam, Augmnented and M&SU might be lists that I do look at hiring them) but the option to switch focus mid game is a good one.

[Starrius]

I like to run 1 lulu and 1 lilitu in my list they arent the strongest of pieces but I do thing their shared souls can lead to them being tougher than the should be.

 

A lure will also work for me for when something has to die,  and the ability tonget distracted in enemy models can help too especially on models with high armour.

 

They both allow card draw and a black blood shaman who.moves within 3 of both of them and ends it activation they both heal 2 which is useful if they run around damaging themself.

[Passenty]

Both models are bad- never hires unless you want nice models on the table in non competetive enviroment. Nobody wanted to fix lilitu in beta because she has ca7 lure and thats soooo broken that now she is totally worthless. 12" lure is just not the same as 18" lure and her defensive stats are so bad that she just dies after her first lure, if you need to misposition enemy look to doppel and hinamatsu. Lelu with pact is ss cost of hinamatsu while cards are nice and all try to guess which model actually does the job done.

[Starrius]

20 minutes ago, Passenty said:

Both models are bad- never hires unless you want nice models on the table in non competetive enviroment. Nobody wanted to fix lilitu in beta because she has ca7 lure and thats soooo broken that now she is totally worthless. 12" lure is just not the same as 18" lure and her defensive stats are so bad that she just dies after her first lure, if you need to misposition enemy look to doppel and hinamatsu. Lelu with pact is ss cost of hinamatsu while cards are nice and all try to guess which model actually does the job done.

I think bad is subjective. I'm sure you can throw out more expensive models to get the job done  but I've not been unhappy with the twins yet. They certainly.arent the best models.but when push came to shove they got the job done.  And when you have multiple large threats from mature nephilim indinthink these models can sneak in under the radar because they arent as good and can be underestimated

[Ogid]

9 hours ago, solkan said:

 If you think that's how 

Quote

After this model Heals from an source other than Twinned Soul, one friendly Lilitu in play may Heal the same amount.

then I can understand you thinking that Twinned Soul, or any other chain healing effect, would be terrible.

That cannot, however, be how it was meant to work.

An unwounded Lelu activates, its Regeneration goes off, it Heals 1, and that sets Twinned Souls (Lilitu) off so that Lilitu heals 1.  If one does Grim Feast and flips a 4, it Heals 4.  Note that Twinned Souls doesn't say "may Heal the amount Healed."

mmm, thinking about it; the issue here could be the same than in the Drink Blood trigger thread. That healing ignored is just for the model or also for asociated effects? :/

Quote

When a model Heals, it gains an amount of Health equal to the healing effect. A model’s Health cannot exceed its maximum Health; if a Heal effect would cause it to exceed this limit, any additional Healing is ignored (as though it did not occur).

I've heard before this only triggers if the model heals... I'll bring this to the rules forum to give it visibility for the next FAQ. Wyrd should really clarify what "ignore" means for them.

Working like that (all healing is transfered, even if the healing is ignored), they would be a little better.

 

7 hours ago, Mac_Atk said:

These two are about punishing your opponent who failed to put them conpletely down in a turn. Lilitu was down to 2 health and healed up conpletely while bringing Lelu back up at the same time. My Basse opponent just sighed because all his activations were negated.

1 hour ago, Passenty said:

Both models are bad- never hires unless you want nice models on the table in non competetive enviroment. Nobody wanted to fix lilitu in beta because she has ca7 lure and thats soooo broken that now she is totally worthless. 12" lure is just not the same as 18" lure and her defensive stats are so bad that she just dies after her first lure, if you need to misposition enemy look to doppel and hinamatsu. Lelu with pact is ss cost of hinamatsu while cards are nice and all try to guess which model actually does the job done.

That's my main issue with them, Lelu with df6 at least can hope to dodge something and he can ramp up the ping damage of the crew, but a df4 Lilitu is too easy to put down; her Lure stat 7 is good, but a 7SS model need something more. Maybe that's the issue, she was balanced around a 18'' Lure and now she is in a bad spot

 

1 hour ago, Starrius said:

A lure will also work for me for when something has to die,  and the ability tonget distracted in enemy models can help too especially on models with high armour.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Lelu and Lilitu are Nephlim that rely more on area damage and healing. Althought the damage of Lelu is comparable to a young (2/4/5 vs 2/3/4 with built in poison). The young can do more damage with the right triggers, but a lot of the crew is after those  so they are less likely to get them from your hand.

there are certainly some crews where they will out perform the young nephlim in damage and durability, probably games where your mobility aren't as useful.

They probably aren't your Nephlim plan A when you start the crew, but they are a solid plan b, especially once your opponents start learning how to deal with your plan a.

The fact that you can create them during the game gives a huge amount of options for you to change your plan.

 

Plan B is probably a weaker plan than Plan A, but its much harder for an opponent to counter both Plan A and Plan B. SO I wouldn't leave them at home ever. I might not hire them all that often (Urami, Almagam, Augmnented and M&SU might be lists that I do look at hiring them) but the option to switch focus mid game is a good one.

I guess they could work for the less bursty and more atrittion heavy crews; these are good examples. But even in those, a Lilitu won't survive 1 activation versus Alice if she is focused down with her 3 min damage 3 shots and she is also an easy prey for the Gunsmiths...

For summoning them in the middle of the game from tots they could be a nice option as their extra healing will help them to refill the Wds and the mobility loss isn't that big of an issue if they start right where it matters.

I'll test try them when I get my Nephs, but comparing their profile with simmilar models I find them a bit underwelming. I do like Lelu, but Lilitu is the weakest link there and it affects how Lelu is supposed to work. I feel Lilitu really needed something like Bullet Proof, protected(Nephillim) or Manipulative; and a different damage track something like 1/3/5 with a "swif action"/"onslaught" trigger (for extra ping damage while also having some damage potential) or a "My Loyal Servant" trigger (to generate ping damage while healing herself and the Lelu).

Ty for the insight guys!

[Starrius]

This could also be a board set up.

 

The boards I'm playing on have a decent mix and we started using grates as concealing rather then cover and it has changed the dynamics ofnthe board nicely allowing for a mix up of crews a bit

[Passenty]

10 hours ago, Starrius said:

I think bad is subjective. I'm sure you can throw out more expensive models to get the job done  but I've not been unhappy with the twins yet. They certainly.arent the best models.but when push came to shove they got the job done.  And when you have multiple large threats from mature nephilim indinthink these models can sneak in under the radar because they arent as good and can be underestimated

Bad is subjective but twins are just plain bad;) If you want to sneak and scheme you can do it much cheaper then 7ss for 5mv- yet another insult as the twins could at least have mv6 to keep up with the rest of the nephilim. If you want to sneak and actually do some damage youngs will always be better then lelu while having superior mobility. I cant see any reason to ever hire any of the twins even in theme list with only nephilim(and nvb versatile options are quite good).  Twin synergy is yet another problem because now you have to take 14ss of subpar models. Frankly is anyone who says they arent that bad actually hiring them? 7ss is a lot, and drawing a card/turn will never add up to this investment- just take wicked doll with ancient pact - wont die to random shots and can actually achieve something useful with creep along, spreading adversary, accomplice and still 2ss cheaper.

[Gnomezilla]

The lilitu are meant to play a game most nephilim don’t play—isolate something and lock it down with 2” engagement range. I’ve only ever seen one used well to hold an idol marker against a cheap scheme runner that suddenly couldn’t do its job. She was much better defending that area than she was controlling an enemy model.

[Maniacal_cackle]

29 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

The lilitu are meant to play a game most nephilim don’t play—isolate something and lock it down with 2” engagement range. I’ve only ever seen one used well to hold an idol marker against a cheap scheme runner that suddenly couldn’t do its job. She was much better defending that area than she was controlling an enemy model.

I don't know about these models, but I see people commonly underestimate zone control models.

If you control the only areas where you can score points, who cares if the enemy is near you or not?

[Ogid]

59 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't know about these models, but I see people commonly underestimate zone control models.

If you control the only areas where you can score points, who cares if the enemy is near you or not?

A model good at zone control should make other models scared of come near (Hinamatsu or Teddy are good examples) or at least be very hard to remove. Lilitu has df4, a value usually reserved for models much cheaper (in the 3-4 SS range) or with a lot of defensive abilities (Terrifying+H2W or Armor2+). She cannot hold any point versus anything, even models cheaper than her could kill her or force her to run for her life.

She costs 7SS and have 0 defensive abilities; the range 2 is nice, but hard to use with how vulnerable she is. And she doesn't bring nothing that unique to compensate being so squishy and slow (and her damage is also bad for her cost). There are a lot of 5 and 6 SS model that could beat her easily while bringing more to the table at the same time...

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid ah yeah, read the cards and can see they're not necessarily ideal for zone control.

Still, card draw is easily worth two stones. Throw in black blood on demand, and you got some pretty good support models.

I suspect they'd be good on corrupted idols. The card draw is fab, and they can camp an idol while reinforcements arrive.

They also seem solid candidates for interacting, and of course are one step away from mature neph I believe? A lot of utility for a model that essentially has regen two and decent combat abilities.

[Sharp_GT]

I can see using lilitu for her lure and card draw, with the occational backup plan of causing a black blood splash.

That said, I will always take the doppelganger over lilitu. Her defensive tech is better, her scheming is better, her ability to pivot to offense is better; and if that isn't enough her lure has my favorite trigger for a lure: reposition. Honestly this one is huge, even at only 3in. It's been my favorite trigger since 2e when it was on beckoners. It allows her to position her crew forward while still advancing herself, or to misposition an enemy and then pivot to another target.

Also a 7 on a lure is very often no better than a 6, simply because of the common Df/Wp spreads: most models are Wp 4-5 so you're at advantage, with a rare few ar Wp7 in which case you probably don't target them anyhow. 

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

A model good at zone control should make other models scared of come near (Hinamatsu or Teddy are good examples) or at least be very hard to remove. Lilitu has df4, a value usually reserved for models much cheaper (in the 3-4 SS range) or with a lot of defensive abilities (Terrifying+H2W or Armor2+). She cannot hold any point versus anything, even models cheaper than her could kill her or force her to run for her life.

She costs 7SS and have 0 defensive abilities; the range 2 is nice, but hard to use with how vulnerable she is. And she doesn't bring nothing that unique to compensate being so squishy and slow (and her damage is also bad for her cost). There are a lot of 5 and 6 SS model that could beat her easily while bringing more to the table at the same time...

That's one sort of Zone control. Its not the only sort that matters in Malifaux. A zone of "you can't do anything" can matter. Lelu with the relatively rare 2" engagement can just prevent models from scoring or being fully effective. A model that can't interact( because its engaged), and has to spend an action to get into a place to attack, and might already be distracted, is not a model that is going to do much in that turn.

She is certainly Fragile, and you need to consider that, especially if she is against a strongly ranged crew, but she isn't that much more fragile than a young Nephlim, and lelu and Lilitu is probably more durable than 2 young nephlim. (They would need to actively work to support each other more than the 2 young would).

I certainly wouldn't hire her all the time, but I would consider hiring the twins in some games, and having her as an option to turn the tots into is also good. (I might hire a lone Lelu as he isn't much slower and is more durable than a young, and be ready to consider the Lelitu as an early replace if the game is going that way.)

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Hot damn, I played against a Lilitu tonight. Brutal.

Archie ripped her apart.  Of course, that meant he took black blood damage (2), and it triggered "enraged by insolence," allowing Nekima one more attack. He took a total of six damage just for killing her. Coupled with another 10 from Nekima the previous turn, and he was dead.

She also lured some allied models before dying. And being immune to black blood was very relevant, as non black blood models were taking a beating from allies bleeding.

For that game, she was definitely scarier than a doppleganger.

As with so many squishy utility models, it turns out if you protect her with her bigger friends, she can be quite scary.

[Starrius]

I do feel the twins come down to play style.

 

I think that's the trick in malifaux what one person likes others  dont.

 

M2e was an example for me, I spent months defending the captain as a choice for my crew with people close to me saying how bad he was, and yet he was the lynchpin of my kaeris crew and almost singlehandedly won me a lot of games.

 

What some say as uncompetitive others see as different ways of thinking, if it was all so simple everyone was literally be using the same crew.

 

The added benefit of a model in keyword vs a doppelganger to me is huge as I like to stay in keywords, and black blood does help alot,