How have YOU beaten Dreamer?

[katadder]

everyone says chompy is easy to deal with, which is true in theory if hes in the middle of your crew.

but early game he tends to be shielded from dreamer, plus he has terrifying 12 (so for most people a 7 to hit) and I know I play him with butterfly jump. on top of all that he has soulstone use, regen 2 and can heal everytime you fail a WP check engaged with him. 

so to take chompy down you have to have a good hand and some really good damage plus concentrate on him alot, preferably after he activates.

[Barmution]

12 hours ago, katadder said:

everyone says chompy is easy to deal with, which is true in theory if hes in the middle of your crew.

but early game he tends to be shielded from dreamer, plus he has terrifying 12 (so for most people a 7 to hit) and I know I play him with butterfly jump. on top of all that he has soulstone use, regen 2 and can heal everytime you fail a WP check engaged with him. 

so to take chompy down you have to have a good hand and some really good damage plus concentrate on him alot, preferably after he activates.

This is what makes Swine Cursed with Inferiority Complex a good counter if you're playing Bayou: You get around Terrifying with Ruthless from the upgrade, Butterfly Jump with Frenzied charge and do irreducible damage if you've got some glowy tokens and/or high tomes to spare.

[Angelshard]

@Barmution somehow I've managed to read and play it as must during the entire beta...

@katadder I don't think anyone is saying chompy is easy to kill, just that he's squishier than he looks and killing him takes a lot of oomph out of the dreamer crew. So if you can, investing the recourses in killing him is often a very good idea. 

[Wyamphri]

Idk, I feel chompy is very easy to kill and deal with. That being said, he is a totem, so you can get only so much out of a free beater haha. 

[santaclaws01]

How easy Chompy is to kill or not really depends on if Chompy can abuse his butterfly jump and engagement range to keep things from getting two attacks on him and how cagey the Dreamer player is with him.

[Ezuma]

My first few games Chompy went down regularly (and he's probably one of the better models to dump damage into early), but now i tend to stone with him a lot more and keep Serena nearby, and lo and behold he's made it through the last few games and helped put down all sorts of troublesome peices. 

One thing I do find hilarious though is that an insidious madness is actually tougher to kill in one activation, barring stone use 

[katadder]

9 hours ago, Barmution said:

This is what makes Swine Cursed with Inferiority Complex a good counter if you're playing Bayou: You get around Terrifying with Ruthless from the upgrade, Butterfly Jump with Frenzied charge and do irreducible damage if you've got some glowy tokens and/or high tomes to spare.

remind me to kill them if I see them  

[Mycellanious]

On 7/14/2019 at 4:31 AM, Angelshard said:

@Barmution somehow I've managed to read and play it as must during the entire beta...

@katadder I don't think anyone is saying chompy is easy to kill, just that he's squishier than he looks and killing him takes a lot of oomph out of the dreamer crew. So if you can, investing the recourses in killing him is often a very good idea. 

Idk, i took down Chompy early but it took most of my hand. Then my opponent summomed him back the next turn with a single 10. It feels like it was a waste

[cbtb11235813]

1 minute ago, Mycellanious said:

Idk, i took down Chompy early but it took most of my hand. Then my opponent summomed him back the next turn with a single 10. It feels like it was a waste

Playing the rules correctly will solve that problem. Since Chompy is a Henchman, and Dreamer can only summon Minions, Chompy cannot be summoned by any current game effects

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Playing the rules correctly will solve that problem. Since Chompy is a Henchman, and Dreamer can only summon Minions, Chompy cannot be summoned by any current game effects

Ah. Well. My b. That would have changed the course of the game somewhat

[cbtb11235813]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Ah. Well. My b. That would have changed the course of the game somewhat

I'm sure it would have! There are very good reasons Chompy is not resummonable  

[Flippin' Wyrd George]

So I managed to get a game in against Dreamer with Ophelia. It was reaaaally tough work but I scraped a draw. I tried to go for the Daydreams but they were too far back - if I was going to shoot them, I was walking into a group of 3 stitched and Chompy. I pulled the crew a part a bit by splitting up, this helped somewhat, but the stitched still dropped my henchmen around turns 3/4 leaving me in an uphill struggle. I think I killed 4 or 5 stitched across that game. Chompy pulled back when damaged to lick his wounds and came back out with a vengeance - cache of 6 went a long way to protect him. I just managed to deny my opponent their ley lines while scoring mine (out of keyword piglet standing out as MVP and grabbing a 3 point swing across the game!)

4-4 draw. Toughest M3E draw I've earned so far. Dreamer is very hard work, but I'm making some inroads...

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just ordered my Dreamer crew! I'm looking to give a bit of a summary of the crews strengths and weaknesses to my club since not everyone has the time to read up on new crews.

Would an accurate summary of weaknesses include:

* hand vulnerability/resource intensive. I often will have to soulstones to summon and discard cards to keep my leaders alive, so pressuring these can hurt.

* mobility. Many of the beaters in the crew lack mobility, and you can only daydream so many moves.

* surgical strikes. The crew relies on some key synergies, and the master's 7 health relies on special abilities. If you can zip in and deal with those, it weakens me substantially.

* lucid dream count makes me snowball hard. Either prevent the bonus actions early, or avoid me late game?

* ruthless: terrifying is a key part of my survival strategy, so negating it hurts.

* willpower: I can only summon models upon failed willpower duels, so be careful where and when you fail them.

Thanks for all the tips so far! Anything else I should include?

[santaclaws01]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just ordered my Dreamer crew! I'm looking to give a bit of a summary of the crews strengths and weaknesses to my club since not everyone has the time to read up on new crews.

Would an accurate summary of weaknesses include:

* hand vulnerability/resource intensive. I often will have to soulstones to summon and discard cards to keep my leaders alive, so pressuring these can hurt.

* mobility. Many of the beaters in the crew lack mobility, and you can only daydream so many moves.

* surgical strikes. The crew relies on some key synergies, and the master's 7 health relies on special abilities. If you can zip in and deal with those, it weakens me substantially.

* lucid dream count makes me snowball hard. Either prevent the bonus actions early, or avoid me late game?

* ruthless: terrifying is a key part of my survival strategy, so negating it hurts.

* willpower: I can only summon models upon failed willpower duels, so be careful where and when you fail them.

Thanks for all the tips so far! Anything else I should include?

Mobility definitely isn't a weakness. The crew runs average to high mobility. Other than that, looks good.

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Mobility definitely isn't a weakness. The crew runs average to high mobility. Other than that, looks good.

Agreed! The bandersnatch/weaver combo can deal with any marker based schemes and, more importantly, can provoke a turn 1 unburied summon on any non-stat 7 enemy model ( I hate having 1-2 models engaged with a stitched turn 1).

Coppelius is really fast and Dreamer hands out free movement, places Chompy, and his summons never have to take a walk action all game.

It’s a very mobile crew!

[Angelshard]

I would add predictability. The nightmare keyword has very few stones to use on OOK models. Vasilisa or maybe rider. So your opponent has a good idea what's coming his way. 

[Trample]

The bury summon mechanic is a minor weakness. Very few crews can really exploit it, but if you are running Guild, for example, it becomes something you can take advantage of. 

[Barmution]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

I would add predictability. The nightmare keyword has very few stones to use on OOK models. Vasilisa or maybe rider. So your opponent has a good idea what's coming his way. 

Not entirely sure about that. If you are of the opinion that they absolutely need the Lucid Dreams engine going from turn 1 then I agree, otherwise I think there's room for quite a bit of OOK models, esp. given the great variation among NVB versatile units and secondary masters.

[Angelshard]

In my experience there aren't many OOK models that really strengthen a nightmare crew. Unlike elite, sorrows or swamp fiend, where I would expect at least 2-3 OOK models I see nightmare more like fae. Its not that they can't use OOK models, it's just that they want to spam a core ability and OOK models means less spam.

On top of that I don't think their weaknesses can be mitigated by going OOK, so I find little benefit in doing so.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

On top of that I don't think their weaknesses can be mitigated by going OOK, so I find little benefit in doing so.

Zoraida pretty handily takes care of their card issues. Their other vulnerabilities can be countered by careful play on the player's part, and given what all the keyword can do, knowing that it's coming doesn't really help too much when you're options of dealing with it are itself limited so the Dreamer player knows exactly what you need to do to stop it which makes his opponent predictable as well.

[Angelshard]

@santaclaws01 true, but she's also another stone or mask hungry lady in a crew that already needs it's stones. I haven't tried her with dreamer, but my guess is that she gives you cards at the cost of stones (unless you just want a 16 stone card draw) so you'll still be tight on resources. I might be wrong though. 

 

I'm not sure nightmares forces your choices that much, other than ruthless to counter terror and maybe don't take armor (something you shouldn't do against neverborn anyway) I don't really see that you're forced to use or avoid a specific type of model. 

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, Angelshard said:

@santaclaws01 true, but she's also another stone or mask hungry lady in a crew that already needs it's stones. I haven't tried her with dreamer, but my guess is that she gives you cards at the cost of stones (unless you just want a 16 stone card draw) so you'll still be tight on resources. I might be wrong though. 

 

I'm not sure nightmares forces your choices that much, other than ruthless to counter terror and maybe don't take armor (something you shouldn't do against neverborn anyway) I don't really see that you're forced to use or avoid a specific type of model. 

Zoraida makes both players discard their hand and draw 6 new cards. Doesn't cost anything.

 

And the predictability on the opponents part is that if they want to try and stop Lucid Dream or take out the big threats they have to do pretty specific things. Either alpha in someone to take out dreamer, and very few models can threaten Dreamer like that so it's easy to see coming, or they're going to try and go after coppelius, chompy and/or teddy, any of whom can have IR and if they fail in killing the model then you can surround it with nightmares for coppelius to use Unhinge on, or they're stopping the lucid dream engine which requires them to ignore your big beaters to go after the daydreams in the back or deal with the alps/stitched/insidous madnesses you're summoning in all of whom aren't super easy to remove.

[Angelshard]

Not the card draw quick action in itself no, what I meant was that if you want to get good use out of her, except to draw cards, you're probably going to use stones and high masks on her. In a crew with a summoning master and 2-3 henchmen stones are going to be tight. She also likes high masks, which again is something you want to use on other things. Again I haven't tried her with him, so I might be wrong. I'd also argue that it raises the number of OOK models that dreamer is likely to take from 4 to five, so still quite predictable. 

For many masters there's quite a few different ways to build a crew that can do one of those three things, so I'd argue your opponent still has a better idea of what he's going to face than you do. Once the crews are revealed though, you can most likely see what he's going to do and try to counter it. But knowing which approach he's going to take during the hiring phase isn't something I'd rely on. 

[Deuteros]

a question in the Terrifying  abilitie,   if you pass the first WP duel to attack  a model with this abilitie,   Do you need repeat the WP duel for other attack?.

Its to complicated pass a lot of WP duels in a turn.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes you do, so you focus first and attack them once and do more dmg in one hit.