How have YOU beaten Dreamer?

[Flippin' Wyrd George]

Hey all. My regular opponent has been running Dreamer for the past few weeks and I am really struggling to find an answer to deal with the crew.

I use Bayou.

His usual list is:

Dreamer

Lord Chompy

Daydream x3

Alp

Stitched Together x2

Vasilisa

Coppelius/Widow Weaver (dependent on game)

Cache of around 4-6

 

I am struggling to make any inroads versus this crew whatever I try. He plays in such that the crew is Lucid Dreaming from the first activation. By the end of turn 1 after summoning an additional stitched together, he has reliably removed 4-5 weak cards and put aside some severe's. He also uses two or three the stitched together to Gamble their life, replacing the flipped card with Fiendish Gamble to essentially guarantee a 3/4/5 dmg flip on the target, he'll often then charge and have a swing which occasionally sticks another 2/3/4 dmg. This has put serious pressure on my crew early

Turn two he has reliably removed 10 weak cards and again has a bank of severe's. He does the same as turn 1, but can scheme run a little with summons/spare AP he doesn't need for moving.

Turn three there are 14ish reliably removed weak cards, as well as some low moderates. Around this point the game has generally gotten away from me and I find it extremely hard to chase as my opponent is reliably winning most top deck duels, especially defensively on the def6 models. He is also succeeding most every low TN duel as many weak cards have been removed. Normally at this point my opponent has 2-3 stitched, a couple of alps, as well as the majority of the starting crew (perhaps chompy and another starting piece has dropped by now).

 

Now, I'm relishing the challenge of coming up with a solution to beat his crew, so what have I tried?

I have tried attacking the stitched together early to try and remove them from the table, but between defence 6, armor +1 and fiendish gamble, they are very difficult to shift without irreducible damage. Also, with Vasilisa, Dreamer and Widow Weaver it is very easy for my opponent to summon them back, so removing the stitched feels like a futile exercise. My opponent does need a summoning card or stone available, but it hasn't seemed a problem so them far.

I tried killing the support pieces, Vasilisa, Chompy and Widow Weaver - Vasilisa is very frustrating to move as she has armor 2, and can heal herself for 3/4/5(!) damage with a ram on her Field Repairs. I have pretty much given up on killing her. Between Widow Weavers teleporting and terrifying she is difficult to finish.

I have tried leaving the stitched together alone, accepted they will do their thing, and gone for the other pieces. This is very difficult also. Chompy Bits I can deal with, but Dreamer is difficult to touch between his defensive tech. Stripping his hand is something I've considered, but then you still have the Serene Countenance to deal with all the while my crew is taking a battering from all angles. And to be honest, removing Dreamer doesn't feel like it achieves THAT much when there are two other models which can summon, and the rest of the crew still lucid dreams. I have tried bringing the Twelve Cups of Coffee upgrade which gives me access to Diversion to shut down lucid dreaming, but my opponent stays away from this now.

I have tried obeying my opponents models to hit Dreamer - this had a lot of success, but he has now wised up to it and keeps non-incorporeal models between his big beaters and dreamer. (I guess obeying the stitched to gamble is going to be my next step as that is lose/lose for my opponent).

I have tried completely ignoring most of the crew and running schemes. This did not work, my models were removed with sheer weight of attacks 

 

So here's my question. How have you guys dealt with Dreamer, or how have opponents dealt with your Dreamer? I'm really at a loss of what to do. It feels like a constant uphill struggle, taking a battering of hits whilst struggling to make any sort of inroad to a crew which can, with some work, replace any damage you cause. I think the only viable method I've come across is card discard or using obeys, but I don't want to be forced into hiring Zoraida every single time my opponent announces Neverborn.

 

Hoping the hive mind may have a few ideas I can try!

Ta for reading the essay 😂

[Tors]

Stiched dislike Amor/HTW/Shielded and as you already guessed beeing obeyed. Severe Terrain can also be problematic. SS Users can spend one to put them on negatives..

Attack Dreamer quick and hard. You can't let him be untouched turn 1, as he gets only better the longer the game goes. Obeyed Stiched are the worst for him, as incorperal and protected didn't work. Blast/Shockwaves and indirect damage (Voodoo doll for example) is your friend. Widowweaver too, if she's present.

[Flippin' Wyrd George]

1 hour ago, Tors said:

Stiched dislike Amor/HTW/Shielded and as you already guessed beeing obeyed. Severe Terrain can also be problematic. SS Users can spend one to put them on negatives..

This is all true but (armor/shielded aside, of which there is little in my faction) this doesn't change the 3/4/5 damage track which 3 models will access, pretty much resource free, every turn. Soulstoning hasn't proved a sustainable way to survive the sheer quantity of damage flips coming my way.

 

1 hour ago, Tors said:

Attack Dreamer quick and hard. You can't let him be untouched turn 1, as he gets only better the longer the game goes. Obeyed Stiched are the worst for him, as incorperal and protected didn't work. Blast/Shockwaves and indirect damage (Voodoo doll for example) is your friend. Widowweaver too, if she's present.

Yeah I've tried to go for him early but it is very difficult when he stands towards the back and has multiple models standing in the way to block charge lanes. I have tried rushing him with a min 4dmg henchman that used stones to get around serene countenances but it was either passed off or stoned, and I ran out of resources trying to protect from retaliating pieces. I could try to shoot him with focus, but this is easily passed off by discarding a low card - I don't really have the opportunity to get more than 2 or 3 straight attack flips on him during turn 1.

Shockwaves would be interesting,though, might need to give these a go!

[Tors]

Of course those aren't easy patent solutions. I am afraid there isn't any. But Gracie, Ophelia or Brewmaster Keywords can make use of Armor/Shielded (through flinch doesn't work ophelia can pulse out shielded and has various indirect damage options). Wong seems also a good Option. Zoraida works too (Each obey is an unmade of 1 lucid dreaming and additional, cheatable damage)

Straight Attacks against Dreamer are a waste of time, if it isn't late in turn and his hand is empty or no Nightmare is near (lure can be a good solution as it removes either the Dreamer or his shield from 2"). Go for Pulses, Blasts and similiar effects. I don't think there is a factions with more of these then bayou. Simple duells are good, too as he hasn't much card dra (if any).

 

Don't get feed up with the stiched. As long as he can summon them, it's only worth to remove them, if you can do so, before they activate. Know there "weakness", as they can only cheat in removed cards once per activation and gamble is an action after all. Slow and stunned are just as good as damage. Engage them with crap and let them kill demise models or similiar. You can't brute force your way through, you have to play clever.

 

And using stones for negative damage is often superior to prevention this edition! 3 dmg per attack action, once per activation isn't really scary. 

[Wyamphri]

Dreamer can be a rough master to go against, but far from impossible. Being a dreamer player myself, going for my day dreams and alps can really set me back with the lucid dream plan. 

Alot of big beaters can be rough to go against. My main opponent likes hoffman and ironsides, both like being big, armored and shielded, and things like peacekeeper or thing that have ruthless can really crap on any nightmare models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Positioning is key against anything that hits hard.

If you force him to spend a lot of resources (aka, actions to move) chasing you down before he attacks, it should go a long way. Also, denying him his WP wins early on should help stop his summoned models coming down too early, I would think? He really relies on winning WP duels to summon his dudes.

[Barmution]

I'd consider bringing Swine-Cursed, preferably with Inferiority Complex to get around Terrifying, as they have everything they need to drop Chompy and Weaver early if you can get them some Glowy tokens and focus early on. Just be aware of your positioning as wp4 will be easy for Dreamer's crew to capitalize on if you allow him to get the drop on you.

[0urs]

Focus Daydreams and Chompy. You can easily OS daydreams, and chompy is not very resistant. At this point Dreamer player will only have Stitched to do beating, shield for Dreamer and schemes, and it will not be enough as they are quite slow.

I think Ophelia got the tools to do some good games against Dreamer.

[Adran]

Gamble your life is enemy only, so not worth obeying.

I may be wrong, but I think the solution to your problem is to hit the lucid dream engine. Take out the daydreams, and the other easy to remove lucid dreaming models, (So not Chompy and stitched, unless you see a good opportunity). If you can take out half his crew that lucid dream, then he has a lot less removed. Each Stitched removing a severe to power up their Gamble is still decent for them, but its roughly equal to them flipping the severe to hit you with a minimum 3 attack, and isn't doing any extra deck improvement.

 

 

[Mayt]

Having played against the exact same crew and player shortly after @Flippin' Wyrd George, I can agree it’s difficult to deal with the stiched once they have so many severes out of the deck. 

I was playing viks so the tactic was very much just slice and dice my way to dreamer. However there’s just to much protection early on to get an alpha strike off. 

With the help of some god hands and moderate damage flips I did manage to eliminate most of the crew through sheer power but it didn’t help the fact that I couldn’t stop the smaller peices running schemes effortlessly whilst lucid dreaming all the weals our. Even with the power of viks and Taylor the whole dreamer crew just feels like a snowball getting bigger bigger.  Simple duels become easier to get off with all the weaks out of the deck. gamble your life becomes very strong quickly and it took a vik off in near enough one activation with very little I could do about it. 

 

 

[Tors]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Gamble your life is enemy only, so not worth obeying.

Argh you're right, forgett about that

[Wyamphri]

It definitely is a very snowbally crew. You have to strike early and hard or even daydreams become threats later on. I'd say by turn 3 you need to have made progress or you will have an uphill battle for the rest of the game. 

[Fixxer]

 I have been thinking long and hard about what it is that makes The Dreamer tick and how to best play the crew. This definitely comes with thinking about how to take it apart, which ultimately is a tricky proposition in my experience. 

I would have to say that Dreamer is a resource intensive master that relies on being able to use his hand *and stones* for what he needs. Without card draw, being a summoner relying on suits, and having some decent TN's around the crew means he needs his resources. You can take those away by putting the right kind of pressure on the crew which is why it can be tricky. Each model in Dreamers crew requires a different approach to take down, there is no "end all" tactic to dismantle Nightmares. These are the things that I've seen work and put the most pressure on me to tip the game in my opponents favor.

1. Find your ruthless options. Ruthless straight ignores Terrifying. This is a layer of defense that is either brilliant or useless depending on whether or not an enemy model has this ability. It makes models like Widow Weaver, Copellius, and Lord Chompy Bitz very squishy as its their only Df tech. Sure WW and LCB can use soulstones but forcing them to do so slows down The Dreamer and his ability to Summon or place LCB with the trigger on "Your NIghtmare". This is on par with Analyze Weakness or attacks that have triggers or inbuilt armor ignore properties vs heavily armored crews. Its a hard counter, which must be conceived and utilized in the hiring process. IF someone declares they are playing Dreamer, get your Ruthless models out and consider 1 or 2 that can kill. 

2. Kill the Day Dreams... I cannot stress this one enough. As bad as it feels as an opponent to kill an insignificant model that will take up to 2 actions to do wont feel good. But if you keep on it and deny the crew extra movement and cheap lucid dreams, you are putting yourself ahead for the end game. This also will start to deny The Dreamers option to use Protected with the Day Dreams. Even so, attacking Dreamer knowing that he'll discard a card to pawn off the attack is progress. If you kill the model he protects himself with AND cost him a card, his resources are being drained, which is a start. He cannot replace models faster than they are killed, only once per turn on the summon action now. The DayDreams also give a lot of mobility and control to the crew with those 3" pushes. Kill them. 

3. Ranged attacks. Dreamer's got range and speed, but if you start picking off his support pieces from 12-24" away, like most guns and snipers can do, you will be forcing Dreamers aggression. Possibly forcing stones or cards by shooting at a sz 4 LCB who will be hard pressed to fully hide on most tables. @Flippin' Wyrd George The fact that the Bayou has an upgrade to give Ruthless and swagger and with plenty of shooting in their faction, this should be your main approach when hearing Dreamer declared. Even a single sniper can cause positioning problems for the Nightmare crew, which can disrupt their ability to support each other fully. Mass shooting is a real problem though, if you can hire 3-4 solid guns in your crew, the Dreamer player should start sweating a bit. 

4. Re-position Nighmare models. The NIghtmare crew is a crew built on teamwork and supporting each other. Most models in the crew have a difficult time on their own and can be focused down if isolated. If you use place effects, lures, obeys to move things out of position and capitalize on it one model at a time. They dont have the best WP either..Notably Serena who is Wp5 which is a glaring weakness for her as she usually acts as a bodyguard for Dreamer. Day Dreams are Wp4 and move 6", lures on them can be devastating as they're not models that are a problem getting close to your crew and like my 2nd point... kill those buggers early. 

5. Conditions.... in my experience Slow and Staggered.... McCabes net gun is a real problem for this crew. Poison was also problematic when fighting against McMournings crew and their expunge actions. I think finding ways to apply conditions without being overly obvious about it during hiring is a big deal when fighting Dreamer. The masters mentioned above definitely telegraph that, but it costs the NB player 2ss for the upgrade to remove conditions or hire Serena, a versatile model with condition removal.  It can feel like Conditions arent the best approach but I totally have fits when my opponent is applying a bunch of conditions to my crew and dictating my activation order, upgrades chosen, and actions I have to take. 

 

Just some quick thoughts on it as Im here at work.  its a start, Id think. 

[Kharnage]

I realize we can't all serve God Empress Nekima, but the general plan for me is that Dreamer builds up steam over the course of the game, ergo start bludgeoning him and his Stitched to death as early and quickly as possible. He has very little card draw (bloody fate on Stitched I think is all of it) and has duels that he needs to pass to do things, so Protected becomes more annoying and costly the more you directly attack him. Serene Countenance is annoying, but you only have to burn your Focus (you have Focus, right?) the instant you know that he didn't toss off the attack, at which point that 7 health pool is feeling pretty paper thin. Don't try to run schemes early, because you need as many AP falling into his Protected hand as you possibly can, because once he runs out of cards, he crumbles. Also, Stitched Together aren't that difficult to bring down, and they're the only models that can use those severe cards he's farming. 

[CD1248]

Has anyone had experience against Rasputina with Dreamer, and how did it go?

Thinking about Arcanists, we don't have a ton of models that can reach out and pick off Daydreams. Raspy, Silent One, and December Acolyte can all do it from significant range in one attack with a severe damage. The crew also benefits more than most from the Mech Rider, who brings a lot into the NB matchup generally with WP7 and Ruthless.

[Fixxer]

Arcanists have gunsmiths and envy too... lots of + flips to target Dreamer directly  and avoid Serene Countenance. 

[CD1248]

13 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

Arcanists have gunsmiths and envy too... lots of + flips to target Dreamer directly  and avoid Serene Countenance. 

Gunsmiths are very good, but I'll be honest the M&SU crew just isn't my jam, and taking them OOK when they can't hang out in the free Grit aura doesn't seem great.

Envy would be great if I could find the Crossroads 7 box in stock anywhere 😅

[Ezuma]

In my experience (running dreamer), mostly vs gremlins and ressers, a cautiously played zipp can do some nasty things turns 1-2 to really mess with the snowball effect. You definitely have to stop Dreamer early, by turns 3 and 4 lucid dreaming means I tend to win a lot of duels without cheating. More aggressive crews should aim to kill what they can as quickly as possible, while crews like zipp should be wary of getting stuck in unless necessary, as I tend to find unburying stitched with insidious madnesses tend to mess with your plans. 

 Also the amount of anti armour abilities (dreamers gun, chompy, serenas gun) is pretty nasty for anyone who relies too much on Armour (recently had a very one sides game vs mei feng). Don't bother killing Serena unless you absolutely can finish her off, generally take out stitched wherever you can, kill chompy, daydreams and copelius. If you're going to take out insidious madnesses, make sure you do it quickly as they have a nasty habit of surviving protracted fights only to emerge at full wounds. 

[Fixxer]

1 hour ago, CD1248 said:

Gunsmiths are very good, but I'll be honest the M&SU crew just isn't my jam, and taking them OOK when they can't hang out in the free Grit aura doesn't seem great.

Envy would be great if I could find the Crossroads 7 box in stock anywhere 😅

I hear this! But lets be honest, their grit ability isnt all that special. They have triggers on every suit which are all good. Sure the ignoring armor one would be nice to always get vs teddy or stitched, but giving them injured, shooting again, or getting puncture are all pretty solid too. 

I would think that if you're facing Dreamer as an arcanist that 2 OOK gunsmiths wouldnt hurt your chances whatsoever. They could both sit back and disrupt his entire bubble for 18ss pretty well, IMO. 

 

As for Rasputina she has blasts, gives slow, and staggered. She also has Ruthless so.... she actually matches up really well VS Dreamer in my experience.  Forces discards or slow with Ice pillars that can just pop up pretty much anywhere.

 

[Flippin' Wyrd George]

13 hours ago, Fixxer said:

 I have been thinking long and hard....

...Just some quick thoughts on it as Im here at work.  its a start, Id think. 

Thank you, you talk a lot of sense. Much of what you've discussed I've tried but there are a few ideas I could run with.

I tried the shooty heavy crew but found they lacked armor, and stitched being able to reach my crew turn 1 meant the low armor models would just die T2/3.  I've used Inferiority Complex a fair amount but never thought about multiple copies because the cost. I suppose if it's going to make a big swing its worth it though! Might try and find some shielded to support them.

I'm not sure I've found much slow, though I feel slow on stitched makes little difference because they only tend to use one main action per activation. Respositioning also felt counter intuative because the daydreams can move them back into place. i think I will try going for them early game next time to see what sort of an impact it has.

My main issue is that I am finding, while I can apply pressure and getting going, there is no stopping easy 12-15 damage a turn on my models, which in a faction with very little armor, means I am losing 1-2 important models each turn, and this snowballs horrifically.

 

Hoping to get some more Dreamer time today and I'll report back!

 

[Angelshard]

As others have said, kill the daydreams. They are easy to kill and rarely worth summoning back. That is one less lucid per turn. 

Hit dreamer with blasts. If something is close enough to protect him it's close enough for the blast to hurt him. If he moves away from his protection, kill him. 

Kill chompy, he's surprisingly fragile and dreamer can make him a jumping death dealer thanks to your nightmare. 

Sometimes it can be worth it to intentionally fail a terror check in your activation, forcing a summon into a bad position. 

Remember that if he's using fiendish gamble for severe, that's less weak that he has removed from his deck.

 

[Barmution]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

Sometimes it can be worth it to intentionally fail a terror check in your activation, forcing a summon into a bad position. 

Quote

From Nightmares: After an enemy model fails a Wp duel caused by a friendly Action or Ability, one model with this Ability may Unbury in base contact with the enemy model after resolving the current Action.

Not sure you can force anything but you can try to trick your opponent that way.

[Trample]

Nightmare is a very difficult crew to conquer. I've played against them a lot in M3e and have had more trouble with this crew than any single crew in M2e. Even without stitched in the crew the Lucid Dreams so dramatically changes the composition of the deck that by turn 3 you're facing a situation where your opponent will be winning the initial duel in almost every instance, putting enormous pressure on your hand and making his hand use very opportunistic. He'll also be regularly flipping moderate or severe damage on negative flips, which is very difficult to absorb for long. 

Although Lucid Dreams is the real power of the crew, they have a ton of other strengths. They have really good damage output, good movement with plenty of movement tricks, good resilience with terrifying and incorporeal, and summoning.  One of the most frustrating abilities The Dreamer himself has is diversion. That one drives me crazy. They are a very powerful crew that isn't easy to beat. 

I agree with what a lot of other folks have said here. You need to go at them hard and fast with everything you've got. When you hear Dreamer as the master the first thing you need to be able to do is hire Ruthless through upgrades or OOK models if necessary because so much of what you're going to have to kill is terrifying. If you can get around that you''ll be in much better shape. The second thing you'll need, and perhaps this is obvious, are models with good hitting ability in the form of high stats, plus flips on the attack, or access to focus. His deck will quickly get hot as he sheds the weak cards so you need every advantage. The last thing that is really handy is the ability to handle speed bumps in the form of alps. A smart Dreamer player will summons alps to slow down your advance (one of my opponents will invest a RJ to summon two whenever he has it). 

My plan is to usually throw about everything I have at 1-2 models per turn starting in round 1. As others have pointed out, Chompy is a relatively easy and important model to take out quickly. Following Chompy I usually take out whatever I can reach. I do agree that deleting Daydreams is very smart, but if I have an easier time reaching Coppelius, and Alp, or and Insidious Madness I will work to eliminate those (a guy I play against regularly loves the Insidious Madness and they are really solid models with Lucid Dream, a good attack, and good defenses). Like always, making sure you invest enough to delete one model as opposed to wounding several is critical.  I will choose models to attack based on my ability to reduce his damage output over my ability to reduce his Lucid Dreams if I am making a choice. Once I am in a position where it's difficult for him to put out a lot of damage, even if he has plenty of models, I start to feel OK about my position (obviously this assumes I am investing a bit in scheming, which we can never fully ignore). 

I haven't tried a gun line against them, but as others have pointed out it sounds like a good course of action on paper. I would worry about The Dreamer's ability to pop summoned models and Chompy into the middle of my guns though. 

The Nightmare keyword is very tough and a lot of good models. I haven't faced a stronger crew in this edition. 

 

[Saduhem]

29 minutes ago, Trample said:

I haven't tried a gun line against them, but as others have pointed out it sounds like a good course of action on paper. I would worry about The Dreamer's ability to pop summoned models and Chompy into the middle of my guns though.

My regular opponent always uses a high card to guarantee a bandersnatch jump into my ranged models turn 1, which usually means a failed WP duel and a stitched unburying in the middle of my crew. After that, it's just gumming up the crew with more and more summons every turn.

Dreamer is probably one of the best masters in the game. Summoners, in general, are just so good. This edition feels very tight when it comes to VP, where having a single extra action can mean the difference between winning and losing.  Dreamer is good at generating a ton of actions (It's hard not saying AP) while making you invest a lot of yours in non-VP related stuff. That's, to me, what makes it hard to play against him.

I haven't played Bayou personally, but as a Resser I bring Vincent so I can trade 1 card for 1 card (Dreamer summons, Vincent Exorcises) when it comes to dealing with summoning. When I happened to play Tormented against him, the fact that all summons have upgrades lets me take advantage of that aspect at least. 

Unless I get presented with a golden opportunity, I don't even bother going for the Dreamer directly. It costs me way too many resources to get to him, and if friendly fire/concealment stack on top of serene countenance, I have to consider spending a stone and focused, all that knowing that the attack might just get passed off anyway. The combination of shielded,  incorporeal, and healing also makes hitting the other models feel quite pointless at times. 

Attacking Dreamer's hand has also worked for me more than trying to kill him.

The only things I can think of that are universally useful against Dreamer are:

Ping Damage (Burning/Poison on Dreamer)
Ruthless
Marker removal (way easier to remove markers than to take out Vasilisa and Widow Weaver)
Things that ignore armor/Incorporeal
Things that force discards


But yeah, I don't think there's an easy way. Several layers of damage mitigation across the crew, lots of actions throughout the game, having a favorably stacked deck, great damage, incredible mobility, summoning through multiple models, all contribute for a really, really good crew. The only thing Dreamer doesn't really have is card draw (although Lucid Dreams can mitigate that).

 

[Ezuma]

One other thing that I love (as a dreamer player) but is very frustrating to the opponent, even if you do kill dreamer and chompy early, its not game over the way it was in 2e. The crew is far less reliant on its master than it once was, and doesn't have to bubble up anymore. For some masters and scheme pools it seems to me the answer is probably to out-scheme, mess with dreamer's positioning or waste their ap (zipp is so good at that of course). I've also found that Molly and Jack Daw aren't horrible vs dreamer, but that might be due to the skill of their owner rather than the crews themselves I can't say, as I only know the one resser player, and he tends to win 90% of his games anyway.