Jump to content
whodares

Facing new Titania - rant on how overloaded a kit can be

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, katadder said:

I think when everyone is against you including known top players then theres probably a good chance you may be wrong.

Me I had no problems against nicodem in 2e and actually was always happy when an opponent declared him.

I also have no problems with titania in 3e, certainly not to your level.

So basicly you are saying that you were playing against lesser skilled opponents and won, so certainly there was no problem. That's pretty much what you're saying here, considering Nicodem got a major nerf and even then still remained one of the top masters in his faction. It's like I would be saying Yan Lo in M2E was fine for tourneys because I could beat the extremely casual players with it.

8 minutes ago, katadder said:

There have been lots of people trying to have a discussion with you and maybe open your mind but you have stuck to your guns and pretty much described yourself in the quoted text.

You talk about closed minds but plenty of people have given you options to beat her but always you have excuses and reasons why she cant be beaten and you are right. Yes there probably is a closed mind here but it's not the people you think

Plenty of those options have been "Don't go near her markers Turn 1 and 2", which is not a viable solution for such a problem. If you can't touch half the board for several Turns because otherwise you fall into a trap, there just might be a problem.

Other options have been more serious and I have given them feedback on why I do not agree with those options. You know, a discussion. It seems like your idea of a discussion is that there is this magical answer and not being convinced by it means I know nothing and must be a stubborn idiot.

I think Titania is too resource-efficient for the amount of power she can bring to the table. Only Adran actually challenged that by providing other alternatives with similar options and I returned my opinion on why I agree/disagree with him with more examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, whodares said:

So basicly you are saying that you were playing against lesser skilled opponents and won, so certainly there was no problem. That's pretty much what you're saying here, considering Nicodem got a major nerf and even then still remained one of the top masters in his faction. It's like I would be saying Yan Lo in M2E was fine for tourneys because I could beat the extremely casual players with it.

Plenty of those options have been "Don't go near her markers Turn 1 and 2", which is not a viable solution for such a problem. If you can't touch half the board for several Turns because otherwise you fall into a trap, there just might be a problem.

Other options have been more serious and I have given them feedback on why I do not agree with those options. You know, a discussion. It seems like your idea of a discussion is that there is this magical answer and not being convinced by it means I know nothing and must be a stubborn idiot.

I think Titania is too resource-efficient for the amount of power she can bring to the table. Only Adran actually challenged that by providing other alternatives with similar options and I returned my opinion on why I agree/disagree with him with more examples.

Not in the slightest, played against very good players, I just knew my way around nicodem and how to counter him,  seems I played him alot which is why was always happy to see him. Making assumptions again.

Not a bad player myself you see, got plenty of tourney wins, even won my 1st m3e tourney (you can check my record on UK malifaux rankings if you really want) and that wasnt an easy pool. Certainly not the best though, plenty better but I know that and accept it, UK is a tough meta though and I can be surprised but that's why I am getting in as many games as possible now. Learn more playing better players than worse ones too.

I also have rants after being smashed, you can ask the UK chat group about my bent models rants but they usually last about 5 mins (not 2 days). Then I go away, try and beat it, it play as that master to learn more about its strengths and weaknesses.

Yes some people have given suggestions, you may not may not like them but maybe try them out. Play more titania, play as titania like I said above, learn her strengths and weaknesses from playing her or against her.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, whodares said:

So basicly you are saying that you were playing against lesser skilled opponents and won, so certainly there was no problem. That's pretty much what you're saying here, considering Nicodem got a major nerf and even then still remained one of the top masters in his faction. It's like I would be saying Yan Lo in M2E was fine for tourneys because I could beat the extremely casual players with it.

Plenty of those options have been "Don't go near her markers Turn 1 and 2", which is not a viable solution for such a problem. If you can't touch half the board for several Turns because otherwise you fall into a trap, there just might be a problem.

Other options have been more serious and I have given them feedback on why I do not agree with those options. You know, a discussion. It seems like your idea of a discussion is that there is this magical answer and not being convinced by it means I know nothing and must be a stubborn idiot.

I think Titania is too resource-efficient for the amount of power she can bring to the table. Only Adran actually challenged that by providing other alternatives with similar options and I returned my opinion on why I agree/disagree with him with more exam

Plenty of people have responded.  You did not find those explanations convincing.  That is fine.  But guess what?  People don't owe you an argument you agree with.  Play with it or against it or don't.  

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, whodares said:

Only Adran actually challenged that by providing other alternatives with similar options and I returned my opinion on why I agree/disagree with him with more examples.

I mean, I straight up supplied a model by model breakdown and complete list. Does that not count as providing alternatives?

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lets compare titania to kaeris is is probably a fairly close match it powers 

 

Both have fairly simmler defensive stats, with titania having more wounds, will power and hard to wound, and kaeris having a defensive trigger and armour. i guess titania is prob slightly up at this point due to her healing and the like

 

both essentially put out markers that do bad stuff, titania will prob move one that was put down in to the deploy phase in to position where as kaeris can create one with her free action. 

titania is then going to have to walk and shoot twice in order to get her attacks in. she gets 2 attacks that do 2/4/5 and injured and don't have any triggers built in. yes she is positives to hit you with her attack if your in terrain.

 

Kaeris on the other hand has run and gun meaning she can charge rather than walk and so get 3 shots, if she is burning she gets positives to attacks as well, (so you can charge in to a pyre marker and then just keep getting burning +1 every action to use for positives) her attack does 2/3/5 and a burning. she then has a built in trigger to give her more damage, essentially making her damage track 3/4/6 for attacks 2 and 3.

 

so kaeris puts out more damage than titania and can do more attacks if she has to move first. and she can put out injured through her pyre markers, and she can blow up other markers with her ranged attacks. 

 

and thats kaeris who is prob the 3-4 best master in arcanist (behind hoffman, sandeep and meifeng in my opinion).

 

yes titania is good, but the game i'm sure would have been quite different for you, if you had managed to drop LCB or a unimpeded beater on titania. yes she can heal a bit, but she goes down to 4-5 good smacks healing or not

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy way to get chompy in with dreamer is of course use your nightmare and get mask trigger.

Chompy can come from anywhere on the board then opponent usually has one activation to try and kill a butterfly jumping terrifying 12 chompy that uses soulstones before chompy goes to work.

Then counter build. Probably a good crew would be reflexes on chompy, rider with reflexes, emissary, 2 insidious madness and a daydream. That gives 6 models that dont care about terrain and one you can teleport in from safety. 

Then summon in other stuff, target gorar or autumn knights for low wp and get stitched etc in their backfield 

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Gaston said:

How did this make it to 4 pages???

While the conversation has been a bit belligerent, it has (mostly) been civil and on-topic enough to pass muster. It has also accumulated quite a lot of good advice on how to combat Titania effectively, which other players may find useful.

We're monitoring the discussion. But if you think a thread has run its course, the best approach is to simply stop posting in it.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Plenty of people have responded.  You did not find those explanations convincing.  That is fine.  But guess what?  People don't owe you an argument you agree with.  Play with it or against it or don't.  

I provided counter-arguments as to why I don't find their response convincing. I'm getting blasted here for not agreeing with them. They are not actually providing a response to my doubts, but just keep rehashing the very thing I challenged.

You are correct in that people don't owe me anything. But when you respond to a thread which has doubts about game balance and your answer is something trolly like "git gud", I don't owe you any respect either.

 

9 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I mean, I straight up supplied a model by model breakdown and complete list. Does that not count as providing alternatives?

Your post has some good points, hence why I liked it. I do have some problems with your suggested solutions. Because you took the time to write such a good post, I want to take my time to write you a proper answer. Unfortunately midnight (my timezone) was not the correct moment to start writing something that lengthy, hence why I refrained from doing that. I still plan on answering with the doubt I have.

8 hours ago, dannydb said:

lets compare titania to kaeris is is probably a fairly close match it powers 

 

Both have fairly simmler defensive stats, with titania having more wounds, will power and hard to wound, and kaeris having a defensive trigger and armour. i guess titania is prob slightly up at this point due to her healing and the like

 

both essentially put out markers that do bad stuff, titania will prob move one that was put down in to the deploy phase in to position where as kaeris can create one with her free action. 

titania is then going to have to walk and shoot twice in order to get her attacks in. she gets 2 attacks that do 2/4/5 and injured and don't have any triggers built in. yes she is positives to hit you with her attack if your in terrain.

 

Kaeris on the other hand has run and gun meaning she can charge rather than walk and so get 3 shots, if she is burning she gets positives to attacks as well, (so you can charge in to a pyre marker and then just keep getting burning +1 every action to use for positives) her attack does 2/3/5 and a burning. she then has a built in trigger to give her more damage, essentially making her damage track 3/4/6 for attacks 2 and 3.

 

so kaeris puts out more damage than titania and can do more attacks if she has to move first. and she can put out injured through her pyre markers, and she can blow up other markers with her ranged attacks. 

 

and thats kaeris who is prob the 3-4 best master in arcanist (behind hoffman, sandeep and meifeng in my opinion).

Kaeris is a very good comparison as she has similar mechanics. You are correct that her damage is higher, but her reliability on getting that damage out is a lot lower. She is also a lot less tanky than Titania. 

Why a lot less tanky? The differences with Titania on the left and Kaeris on the right.

  • 14 wounds vs 12
  • 7 Wp vs 6
  • HtW vs Armor +1 (equals out I guess)
  • Cruel Disappointment vs .... nothing
  • Concealing markers vs Pyre markers => Pyre markers are Hazardous, so it can stop aggression when placed correctly. Otherwise they provide no defensive benefit whatsoever.
  • Healing Triggers (1 even has Condition removal) vs ... nothing

 

Calling Titania "slightly" up when it comes to tankiness is an understatement.

 

So now the reliability of getting that damage out. While I agree with you that Kaeris can also give out Injured, it is just a single Injured after all. This gives you an edge when it comes to card usage, but Titania can stack is very high during a single Activation. This means every attack Titania makes will be easier than the previous attack. What this means is that Titania will have to spend less resources in general to get her hits in than Kaeris.

Side-note: I know Kaeris has a Trigger which allows you to drop a Pyre marker that also stacks Injured. I'm trying to make a point here about investment vs return, which Titania is extremely good at. However, if you decide to use this Trigger as Kaeris, you actually have a lower damage potential than Titania due to the way Burning works.

Another important thing to consider is the fact that Kaeris has a gun symbol on her attack. She can ignore Burning models for Friendly FIre, which is easy enough to do, but she can't ignore actual Terrain. Cover and Concealing (hi Titania) massively drop her potential.

 

So we actually arrive again at thesame situation which Adran also mentioned with his 3 exemplary masters. They have a higher potential, but they have more downsides to their attacks AND require a lot more investment, be it cards or stones, to actually get the most out of it. Meanwhile Titania has a lower damage potential, but is a lot more consistent at pumping it out and requires very few resources for it.

 

That said, I really like your comparison to Kaeris. I like her crew and the tricks they have with Burning to up their damage. Unfortunately the reason why Kaeris is a mid-tier master in her own Faction is because damage is all she has. Her crew does not have any real tricks for scheming, besides removing scheme markers on  a couple of Triggers. She reminds me of Guild in M2E and why they weren't considered to be a top Faction.

 

9 hours ago, katadder said:

Easy way to get chompy in with dreamer is of course use your nightmare and get mask trigger.

Chompy can come from anywhere on the board then opponent usually has one activation to try and kill a butterfly jumping terrifying 12 chompy that uses soulstones before chompy goes to work.

Is this actually viable to do in an early Turn? Considering any LoS passing through Concealing Terrain puts that action on a negative flip, you'd have to either Focus or spend a Stone for a +.  If you want to do this Turn 1, you are forced to use a stone as you'd have to do at least a double Walk to get in Range. if you do this Turn 2, your opponent probably has extra Pass tokens from Summoning and can just keep stalling you out.

Depending on the Terrain, your opponent does not necessarily have to kill Chompy to stop his damage. Since most of Titania's crew has the thematic Place + damage trigger, which can put Chompy far enough away or behind Blocking Terrain that he needs a Walk before he can reach with a Charge.

 

9 hours ago, katadder said:

Then counter build. Probably a good crew would be reflexes on chompy, rider with reflexes, emissary, 2 insidious madness and a daydream. That gives 6 models that dont care about terrain and one you can teleport in from safety. 

While I like this suggestion, I am slightly worried about the durability of these models. Rider is not known to be durable at the start of the game and most of those models have a stat 5 defense against a (for the most part) stat 6 attack crew. It also does not feature Condition removal, so I'm guessing your approach here would be some sort of attrition warfare which Summoners have an advantage in?

Insidious is durable thanks to Incorporeal, which is pretty good, but eventually works close to thesame as Armor. The weakness of these Abilities being models having high weak damage and hitting medium/severe which is made easier thanks to the Injured stacking. Emissary on the other hand will provide a challenge. But then again, I really like the Emissary and have to try to not use him in every Neverborn crew I make because of his current plug-and-play powerlevel.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think getting chompy in would be a 2nd turn thing.  So 1st turn you summon, walk focus, put some shielded on. Chompy walks, focus, lucid dream.

Yes riders are squishy early on but he is df6 wp7 and unimpeded and fast so waiting a turn isnt too bad.

Insidious madness can hide until you need them then rush forward and hopefully distract as well. They are also terrifying so can burn enemy cards. Or can scheme run pretty fast.

Then depends on your cards for what summons you bring.

Not saying it would work and need to test it out myself but if I was playing dreamer and opponent declared titania then that would be a counter build. It all depends on strats/schemes and opponents plays as well as your own of course.

Play her some more, play as her as you are a nvb player. See her strengths and weaknesses and see what people bring against you

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, whodares said:

Kaeris is a very good comparison as she has similar mechanics. You are correct that her damage is higher, but her reliability on getting that damage out is a lot lower. She is also a lot less tanky than Titania. 

 

So now the reliability of getting that damage out. While I agree with you that Kaeris can also give out Injured, it is just a single Injured after all. This gives you an edge when it comes to card usage, but Titania can stack is very high during a single Activation. This means every attack Titania makes will be easier than the previous attack. What this means is that Titania will have to spend less resources in general to get her hits in than Kaeris.

Side-note: I know Kaeris has a Trigger which allows you to drop a Pyre marker that also stacks Injured. I'm trying to make a point here about investment vs return, which Titania is extremely good at. However, if you decide to use this Trigger as Kaeris, you actually have a lower damage potential than Titania due to the way Burning works.

Another important thing to consider is the fact that Kaeris has a gun symbol on her attack. She can ignore Burning models for Friendly FIre, which is easy enough to do, but she can't ignore actual Terrain. Cover and Concealing (hi Titania) massively drop her potential.

 

So we actually arrive again at thesame situation which Adran also mentioned with his 3 exemplary masters. They have a higher potential, but they have more downsides to their attacks AND require a lot more investment, be it cards or stones, to actually get the most out of it. Meanwhile Titania has a lower damage potential, but is a lot more consistent at pumping it out and requires very few resources for it.

 

Kaeris can give Injured +3 to models without them taking any duels if she uses fan the flames to move markers 3 times (and is the leader). They will have to take the 3 simple duels for damage, but the effects of hazardous markers will happen if you push the marker to touch them.

So at 10" range she can give Injured +3, burning +3 and 3 mv 12 duels for 2 damage each. It costs her a five and 3 sixes, and it doesn't even target. Its not limited to just one enemy model, but they would need to be near each other, and for maximum effect be close enough for Kaeris to push the pyre through them multiple times without it leaving her 8" range.

Its a much lower likelyhood of damage, but much higher likelihood of Injured. (Also I haven't counted the extra burning and injured they would get during their activation for being in the terrain). Its signifignatly less resource intensive than even Titania

Dropping the marker in base contact with the model will not make them suffer the hazardous effects. (It doesn't count as moving the marker)

And I would probably rather charge and Grab and drop into a pyre rather than Conflagrate if I was wanting to do damage and Injured. It does have the down side that it doesn't get easier as they get more injured, but it will move them and hurt them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, whodares said:

when you respond to a thread which has doubts about game balance and your answer is something trolly like "git gud", I don't owe you any respect either.

I don't think those people have been rude to you for the most part. But look at it from their perspective. Some guy suddenly showed up saying that Titania is OP based on a single game which he admitted that he was unprepared for. Titania could be too good. I've only played against her once but I won. I wouldn't know. There's a reason the developers told us to play lots of games and not just theory craft. Malifaux had a ton of variables in it and it's difficult to simply look at a single action or even a single card and know if it's too good. If it is too strong, then you'll need to prove it if you want anything to change. Play some more games against. If possible, play some games using her. Then if you still feel she's too strong, post again. You'll have more data to work with rather than just theory crafting and your opinions will hold more weight. You can continue to discuss on here but nothing will happen from this thread as your conclusion is not backed by any credible data whereas the opposite conclusion (that Titania is strong but not a problem) had significant data backing it up. Either way, I wish you the best.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just an ignorant bayou players but can Titania cruel disappointment trigger for herself?

 

I thought it couldn't. 

 

Also I thought spells still we're under the effects of concealment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, HipsterWhale said:

I'm just an ignorant bayou players but can Titania cruel disappointment trigger for herself?

 

I thought it couldn't. 

It's an aura. An aura that affects friendly models. As an aura it requires line of sight. Models are friendly to and have LoS to themselves. ie. Cruel Disappointment very much applies to Titania as well.

If it would say "other model" or somesuch, then it wouldn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

 Also I thought spells still we're under the effects of concealment

Titania's own attack specifically ignores concealment. Her theme models that generate underbrush markers ignore negative effects from underbrush markers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

Ahhh....that's strong

If you are a Bayou player, using Zipp and his Infamous you have some countermeasures against her.

Also with Rami and Raphael (from kin)

And Emissary..

Extra: a very common mistake that i've seen often during this game, is that some bayou players forgot that Fae models, not ignore concealment of their opponents like iron skeeters..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Adran said:

Kaeris can give Injured +3 to models without them taking any duels if she uses fan the flames to move markers 3 times (and is the leader). They will have to take the 3 simple duels for damage, but the effects of hazardous markers will happen if you push the marker to touch them.

So at 10" range she can give Injured +3, burning +3 and 3 mv 12 duels for 2 damage each. It costs her a five and 3 sixes, and it doesn't even target. Its not limited to just one enemy model, but they would need to be near each other, and for maximum effect be close enough for Kaeris to push the pyre through them multiple times without it leaving her 8" range.

Its a much lower likelyhood of damage, but much higher likelihood of Injured. (Also I haven't counted the extra burning and injured they would get during their activation for being in the terrain). Its signifignatly less resource intensive than even Titania

Dropping the marker in base contact with the model will not make them suffer the hazardous effects. (It doesn't count as moving the marker)

Wanted to reply to this last night, but real like kind of got in the way. Anyways ...

I agree with you that Kaeris can give out the Injured and Burning at a lower cost, but it's very easy and a lot cheaper for the opponent to also block the damage from the duel. For 3 6-7 cards he can complete the Mv duels, which means you probably won't be hitting any of them. The strong part of this action is the fact that you can hit multiple models with it, which gives you a much higher chance to deal the damage. The range of the Action is 8" btw, but I'm guessing you meant 10" as in 8" + 2-ish inch from the 50mm marker.

 

But here's the thing, this is a completely separate action. Her main attack, Conflagration, does not stack the Injured itself. Kaeris is pretty much what Titania should have been: 1 main, damaging + other effects action and 1 action which gives out negative effects. In order to max her damage, she uses Conflagration which has very defined downside to using. If you want cheaper usage or more reliability you will use Fan The Flames.

Titania on the other hand has both these actions rolled in a single one. There is no reason to use any action besides Awakened Hunger and her Free Action. Kaeris has a choice between several action with clear, defined advantages and weaknesses. Titania has all rolled into 1 Action.

 

15 hours ago, Adran said:

And I would probably rather charge and Grab and drop into a pyre rather than Conflagrate if I was wanting to do damage and Injured. It does have the down side that it doesn't get easier as they get more injured, but it will move them and hurt them.

What do you mean with charge and Grab? Is that her melee action with the trigger on it? You are correct that it doesn't scale with Injured (Sz duel), but it also has the very clear disadvantage that you can only do this once per Turn, unless the Terrain is in your favor. Then you are also likely to expose Kaeris herself to danger by bringing her to the frontline and she isn't really that tanky considering she only has stones and Armor +1 keeping her alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, whodares said:

I agree with you that Kaeris can give out the Injured and Burning at a lower cost, but it's very easy and a lot cheaper for the opponent to also block the damage from the duel. For 3 6-7 cards he can complete the Mv duels, which means you probably won't be hitting any of them. The strong part of this action is the fact that you can hit multiple models with it, which gives you a much higher chance to deal the damage. The range of the Action is 8" btw, but I'm guessing you meant 10" as in 8" + 2-ish inch from the 50mm marker.

 

But here's the thing, this is a completely separate action. Her main attack, Conflagration, does not stack the Injured itself. Kaeris is pretty much what Titania should have been: 1 main, damaging + other effects action and 1 action which gives out negative effects. In order to max her damage, she uses Conflagration which has very defined downside to using. If you want cheaper usage or more reliability you will use Fan The Flames.

Titania on the other hand has both these actions rolled in a single one. There is no reason to use any action besides Awakened Hunger and her Free Action. Kaeris has a choice between several action with clear, defined advantages and weaknesses. Titania has all rolled into 1 Action.

 

What do you mean with charge and Grab? Is that her melee action with the trigger on it? You are correct that it doesn't scale with Injured (Sz duel), but it also has the very clear disadvantage that you can only do this once per Turn, unless the Terrain is in your favor. Then you are also likely to expose Kaeris herself to danger by bringing her to the frontline and she isn't really that tanky considering she only has stones and Armor +1 keeping her alive.

I do agree that Kaeris has the range of options that Titania has, but spread over several actions, rather than all in one place.  This is often a down side (although if you face Lethes caress its not) because you do have to pick what you want, rather than getting it all. But each of the options is slightly better at that thing than Titania. (Conflagration can be minimum damage 3 thanks to the timing rules on every attack without needing a suit, or do blast damage) It also is harder to counter 3 different avenues of attack than 1.

And yes you're right the range written is 8" but since that just has to reach the marker, it can be used to affect models over 10" away from her so I'm happy to refer to it as having a threat range of over 10" as a repeatable threat. (It can hit a model over 14" away, and if she got the trigger on her :ToS-Fast: she can do it twice on a model at that sort of range.)

Sorry, I forgot her action is no longer "grab and drop", its "up we go". Its a damage flip and a place. Since Kaeris has a :ToS-Fast: action to create the terrain she wants (and its her only :ToS-Fast:), I generally assume that she will be able to have the terrain in the places she wants, whilst its more effort for Titania to get the terrain where she wants if you have tried to avoid it because it costs her AP. So I would expect the pyre to be placed somewhere Kaeris wants it, her to charge into it, place the target in the terrain triggering the hazardous, and still have left her in range of the model, and only with the last attack would I consider moving the target out of Kaeris engagement. (Ok I can think of plenty of times I would consider doing it earlier but its not hard to attack 3 times with up we go and to drop them in a pyre in range each time.) Kaeris can probably be doing all those attacks on a :+flip if you want.

That set up can move a 30 mm model over 9" from where it started whilst still doing damage and giving it at least 2 injured and burning without needing any suits or set up outside of Kaeris' turn. Titania can move further and do more damage, but needs more set up and to hit a trigger every time.

You may be correct in saying that Titania's Kit is better than the other 5 masters I have compared it to who do similar things. I haven't played any of them anywhere near enough in their current rules to be sure of their actual level, but I don't think its a clear cut better in all situations than any one of them. The other kits are certainly close enough that I wouldn't look at Titanias and say it is outside of the expected range of a master. I also don't expect each Master to be equal in power just looking at their card alone, because there is a lot of hidden power in totem and keyword (Keyword is very hard to quantify a power level but it does contribute to the overall power level of your leader).

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Adran said:

. (Conflagration can be minimum damage 3 thanks to the timing rules on every attack without needing a suit, or do blast damage)

This is something I don't understand (maybe this is not the place to ask though). If things in italics are required to declare triggers and those are declared prior to resolve the attack, how can the burning applied with the attack be used to declare the trigger?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, longfanz said:

This is something I don't understand (maybe this is not the place to ask though). If things in italics are required to declare triggers and those are declared prior to resolve the attack, how can the burning applied with the attack used to declare the trigger?

You're right, you cant get min 3 on 1st attack as i have pointed out to others especially after a certain podcast.

Unless you have managed to get burning off a different attack somehow.

  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Adran said:

I do agree that Kaeris has the range of options that Titania has, but spread over several actions, rather than all in one place.  This is often a down side (although if you face Lethes caress its not) because you do have to pick what you want, rather than getting it all. But each of the options is slightly better at that thing than Titania. (Conflagration can be minimum damage 3 thanks to the timing rules on every attack without needing a suit, or do blast damage) It also is harder to counter 3 different avenues of attack than 1.

I completely agree that it's harder to block different avenues of attack and that each of those separate actions is stronger than the single one of Titania.

However there is a lot of strength in simplicity as well. Stopping Titania's attack is already hard enough as is as the only thing stopping it will be standing out of LoS or out of range. Anything else she can just go through and both those options are also not really a viable solution as well. I personally believe it would be better to remove the Injured from Titania and place it in a separate action so she would actually be getting a choice in what she wants to do.

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

Sorry, I forgot her action is no longer "grab and drop", its "up we go". Its a damage flip and a place. Since Kaeris has a :ToS-Fast: action to create the terrain she wants (and its her only :ToS-Fast:), I generally assume that she will be able to have the terrain in the places she wants, whilst its more effort for Titania to get the terrain where she wants if you have tried to avoid it because it costs her AP. So I would expect the pyre to be placed somewhere Kaeris wants it, her to charge into it, place the target in the terrain triggering the hazardous, and still have left her in range of the model, and only with the last attack would I consider moving the target out of Kaeris engagement. (Ok I can think of plenty of times I would consider doing it earlier but its not hard to attack 3 times with up we go and to drop them in a pyre in range each time.) Kaeris can probably be doing all those attacks on a :+flip if you want.

I do not fully agree Titania has a harder time getting her Undergrowth markers where she needs them. Within 5" of a model is already good enough if you decide to stone of your first attack for the suit. Else it's 3" within a model's range and that is a pretty large area. Her crew also starts by placing a variable number of markers at the start of the game, which gives a great deal of zone control right from the get-go.

Up We Go also has the funny restriction to not work on Flying models and it will only work once per Turn unless you did not use your Charge already. This does assume you are using the Trigger to push away 2" in order to maximize the Burning and Injured in a single attack. If not, then yo can do that 3 times.

 Getting + by removing her own Burning does combine rather well with the Pyre markers and the timing allows for some fun moments.

40 minutes ago, Adran said:

That set up can move a 30 mm model over 9" from where it started whilst still doing damage and giving it at least 2 injured and burning without needing any suits or set up outside of Kaeris' turn. Titania can move further and do more damage, but needs more set up and to hit a trigger every time.

It will probably cost you a lot more cards to pull this off though as you're not using the Injured you're getting. Your opponents gets a much better chance at defending than against what Titania does as well. In general Titania can also do those things in her Turn, but Kaeris does have the marker positioning a bit easier. Kaeris still has the Burning ticking down, but it's a lot harder for her to actually win the duels to start stacking up those things.

This brings us back to the discussion about Fan The Flames. Do you want near-guaranteed damage and lower conditions or do you want guaranteed conditions with probably no damage. For Titania this is easy as she has no choice and actually benefits from spending at least 1 card to get the initial Injured rolling. Kaeris unfortunately does not have this option, meaning every duel will retain thesame difficulty.

 

48 minutes ago, Adran said:

You may be correct in saying that Titania's Kit is better than the other 5 masters I have compared it to who do similar things. I haven't played any of them anywhere near enough in their current rules to be sure of their actual level, but I don't think its a clear cut better in all situations than any one of them. The other kits are certainly close enough that I wouldn't look at Titanias and say it is outside of the expected range of a master. I also don't expect each Master to be equal in power just looking at their card alone, because there is a lot of hidden power in totem and keyword (Keyword is very hard to quantify a power level but it does contribute to the overall power level of your leader).

I agree partially here with you. You can't compare a crew solely on their master's power level and have to take into account the entire crew.

This is where Injured is making this harder imo as Injured is pretty much a crew-wide buff for the opponent. Fighting Titania's crew means you have to get close to them, or use Focus or use a ranged attack with a + to attack as everything else will probably fail. Having Concealing Terrain and ignoring the downsides yourself is very powerful. Most of her crew also has a stat 6 attack, which is certainly nothing to scoff at and then they also have Injured, making it extremely hard to resist those stat 6 attacks. Then you realise her crew is also decently resilient via HtW and Cruel Disappointment which starts bringing the question on what the weaknesses are of the crew. I find that the crew has too few weaknesses for what they can do. There are other crews, which are even more ridiculous than Fae right now (cough Swampfiends cough), but that does not stop me from looking at these things.

But if you were to compare Kaeris' crew to Titania's crew, you can clearly see the difference in versatility and power level. Titania can do a lot of things at moderate or easy difficulty, while Kaeris has a lot of difficulty on something that isn't just straight-up killing models. Being able to bring a crew into any pool and expect to be at least proficiënt at everything, while other crews are not is something I find problematic. We had this situation in M2E and this is also one of the things they tried to fix in M3E. Perhaps Titania is actually at the power level they want ALL crews to be at and I'm looking at it from a wrong angle. Perhaps Titania won't get nerfed, but other crews will get buffed up to her level.

  • Respectfully Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are keeping your crew bunched to make use of cruel disappointment then you are  not doing everything really.

If they spread out to do schemes and strats then they can be taken down.

Rougarou are only df4, bultungin are easy kills with no defensive tech. Outside of those 2 models the crew is fairly slow so they cannot do everything.

Also outside of aeslin and titania the crew is a melee crew so again cannot do everything.

All we can say is more games, more situations, different board set up, different strats and schemes, these will all show you that whilst good she is  not the powerhouse you seem to consider her

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, whodares said:

Up We Go also has the funny restriction to not work on Flying models and it will only work once per Turn unless you did not use your Charge already. This does assume you are using the Trigger to push away 2" in order to maximize the Burning and Injured in a single attack. If not, then yo can do that 3 times.

 Getting + by removing her own Burning does combine rather well with the Pyre markers and the timing allows for some fun moments.

It will probably cost you a lot more cards to pull this off though as you're not using the Injured you're getting. Your opponents gets a much better chance at defending than against what Titania does as well. In general Titania can also do those things in her Turn, but Kaeris does have the marker positioning a bit easier. Kaeris still has the Burning ticking down, but it's a lot harder for her to actually win the duels to start stacking up those things.

This brings us back to the discussion about Fan The Flames. Do you want near-guaranteed damage and lower conditions or do you want guaranteed conditions with probably no damage. For Titania this is easy as she has no choice and actually benefits from spending at least 1 card to get the initial Injured rolling. Kaeris unfortunately does not have this option, meaning every duel will retain thesame difficulty.

Up we go works as many times as you want as long as when you place the model its in the 2" engagement range whilst you still have actions. That 9" movement was expecting 3 hits. and does mean you would be needing to move them from 1 extreme of your engagement to the other, but that's less movement issues than to base contact with a underbush marker within 2" unless you have managed to set up a pathway already. (Certainly possible, but doing so will concentrate your power in a smaller area of the board).

You can place the target in base contact with you, push it 2" away and you're still in range to hit it if you want that additional burning. But I was ignoring the trigger entirely in my calculations.

 

Card wise, if you're facing a model that's Sz 2 with Df 6, then its not more cards. If you're facing a Sz 3 model with df4, then it is lots more  cards. Against a size 2 Df 5 model which is fairly standard you will generally save cards doing it, as long as they are in severe terrain the whole time. If they aren't in severe at all times, then Kaeris is probably more card efficient thanks to that positive attack flip she has for her burning.

 It does bypass a lot of the resistance triggers by being against Sz, which probably helps more than not targeting flying models will hinder over all.

 If you're facing models with Butterfly jump, then you're right it is probably restricted to once.  

Standing out of LOS stops Titanias, but doesn't automatically stop Kaeris (Obviously depending on whats about but her flight charge often gets round the issue) This will depend a lot on what your board looks like. But not being seen is going to be the most common counter to Titania, and it will work.  It may be I learnt to play in 1st Ed and my main opponent had a guild crew that basically all had guns that ignored Cover, or were paired (:+flipon the attack for you newcomers ;)) so I know how much I need to hide a model to block an attack by removing it from LOS.

 

And Apologises for misleading people on the trigger, you're right you will need burning on the model to declare it which happens before it applies burning the first time. (On the counter, it would leave the model on burning 1 which is 1 more damage in the end step, so still looking at 9 damage for minimums, but not quite as reliable),  The burning no longer ticks down though.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...