Facing new Titania - rant on how overloaded a kit can be

[whodares]

Last night I played my first game against the M3E Titania. Due to burnout in my group from Closed Beta, I didn't really play much in Open Beta and was slightly rusty. My opponent was also a first time Titania player and I brought in The Dreamer. We did not look at eachother's crew possibilities as real life tends to get in the way of some stuff. What happened then was the second-most one-sided smackdown in my years of playing this game. The worst was against M3E Kirai when she still had Hanged and this one came VERY close to that. We chose to end the game before Turn 2 even finished because I had lost the majority of my crew.

 

My crew was:

• Dreamer (6 stones)
• LCB + Inhuman Reflexes
• Teddy + Inhuman reflexes
• Coppelius
• Widow Weaver
• Bandersnatch
• 3 Daydreams

 

Opponent was:

• Titania
• Gorar
• Aeslin
• Killjoy + Inhuman Reflexes
• Autumn Knight
• Waldgeist
• Hooded Rider

 

Deployment type: Wedge Deployment.

The scheme pool was Reckoning with Detonate Charges, Search The Ruins, Dig Their Graves, Take Prisoner and Power Ritual.

I took Take Prisoner (Waldgeist) and Power Ritual, my opponent took Search The Ruins and Take Prisoner (Coppelius).

 

 

Start of the game he littered the center of the field with 4-5 of those Underbrush Markers and placed some more in my part of the map as well. This made me thankful for Charge being a push, ignoring the severe terrain penalty. There was almost no path for me getting to the center of the map without going through an Underbrush marker.

 

My deployment was placing LCB far forward. I pushed him with 2 Daydreams so he could get within Charge range of a Waldgeist. Then the bullshit happened as there is no other way to call it that. Some call the master Titania, I call her an overtuned piece which I'm amazed to have survived beta in her overtuned state. Titania moved forward once and used The Queen's command to bring LCB into base contact with an Underbrush marker, also dealing 1 damage in the process. Then she used Awakened Hunger twice, hitting both times without needing to cheat a card. She got a + thanks to me being in Severe Terrain. Doesn't sound too bad, right?

 

Here's the thing: It's a 8" range NON-SHOOTING stat 6+ attack, ignoring Concealment, dealing 2/4/5 damage AND giving out Injured. Hit the Trigger and it becomes 3/5/6 which is massive. Now the major point on this attack was the In,jured. After Titania has activated, LCB was on -2 WP and Df. Since Titania has 7 WP, she also did not need to cheat a single Terrifying check. My opponent hit his Trigger both times (thanks +flip) and I used 2 stoned which negated 3 damage.

 

I was compleely missing on how I could turn this around. Chompy was stack due to the Place on the Trigger of Awakened Hunger and Inhuman Reflexes could not get him out. He was also in Engagement Range of Titania, meaning getting out would still keep me within 8" for the next round. In the end I activated LCB and whacked Titania really hard, but he burned 2 stones and also negated 3 damage. Because I activated LCB close to Titania, he took 1 damage from Life Leech, meaning he regenerated only 1 Wound.

 

THEN my opponent activated Aeslin, the second most bullshit model in this crew. She has Decay, which is pretty close to thesame as Titania's Awakaned Hunger, except with Blasts handing out Injured as well. She used Decay twice, which was easy to hit due to -2 Df and WP from Injured from Titania, stacking it up to -4 Df and WP. The extra damage Trigger is built-in, meaning I ate another 6 damage which burned another 2 stones to stop another 3 damage. So far LCB was down 4 stones and has already taken 6 (-1 Regeneration) damage. He was now on1 Df and 2 WP.

 

I activated Dreamer and tried keeping him alive by giving him Shielded and getting some summons to block a path, but my opponent has a nearly full hand and my hand was nearly empty. You know, due to all the -Df I had to cheat so my opponent wouldn't get straight flips and damage and straight-up kill LCB with only Titania and Aeslin. Unfortunately Titania's crew has very decent WP stats and I couldn't get any summons out.

 

Then my opponent activated Killjoy. He charged Chompy, forgot about using the + from moving through and Underbrush and straight-up fodderized LCB as 1 Df vs a stat 6 attack at that point is just dead.

 

End of Turn 1 I burned all 6 stones and still lost LCB. My opponent only needed 3 models to achieve this: Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy of which Titania and Aeslin were game MVP.

Turn 2 was pretty much thesame: Titania can do 3 attacks on a model (Teddy in this case), hitting through all the Terrifying with ease thanks to 7 WP, setting that model on -3 Df and WP making it easy pickings for other models to take them out.

 

 

My problem with Titania (and Aeslin) is the fact that they have an 8" NON-SHOOTING attack which is overloaded on effects. I thought about using Serena Bowmane, but that wouldn't really help all that much. Getting 2 Injured is a death sentence for any model and this crew has 2 models that can do that without counterplay.

Why without counterplay? It' doesn't have a gun-symbol, meaning it can be used into engagements without penalty. It's a min 2 damage attack, which is more like a min 3 due to the Trigger, which also has a Place effect. To top it off, Injured is one of the most powerful conditions in the game as it allows you to win duels without having to spend cards. There is 99.9% no point in ever using her melee attack as it deals less damage and is less reliable due to no +flip.

 

Aeslin is another can of worms with a BLAST attack handing out Injured. This attack also has the built-in Trigger Titania also used: +1 damage and Place into Underbrush within 2". So this attack allows you to deal 3/3/4 damage, give Injured AND place a model away from you which is a boatload of power for such an attack.

 

 

So you're probably thinking now: great offence must mean weak defence. The answer is NOPE. The entire crew has Hard To Wound, putting you on negatives on pretty much every damage flip you ever do. Titania herself has Life Leech, which is a 4" Aura that damages activating models and heals Titania. THEN she also gained Nix' Cluel Disappointment, turning severe into moderate on her friendly models within 3".

Killjoy heals on: 1) killing models, 2) Drink Blood Trigger on a 3/4/6 attack and 3) Free Action Juggernaut, a 1/2/4 Heal because WHY NOT? To top it off, there's Terrifying (11), The default HtW and his Bury mechanic.

Aeslin has HtW, Honorable (no Distracted) and Counterspell.

Autumn Knight has HtW, Armor +1 and the Df Trigger Parry, which deals damage back if he wins the Df duel. To top this off, he has 6 Df 5 WP, meaning a very good statline with all that dfeensive tech.

Gorar has HtW on a 4-wound model, making him a very durable totem which can Replace himself with a killed model.

Hooded Rider ddin't do anything this game, but turns into a semi-unkillable beast thanks to his own HtW, Df Trigger and Titania's Cruel Disappointment.

 

 

So you have a crew which can stack the one of the best conditions in the game, deals a boatload of damage, is impossible to hit from Range due to Concealing Underbrush and is tanky beyond words. What are you supposed to do against something of this level?

 

Bonus question which didn't come up during our game, but could be important to know for my friend. Titania's crew is unaffected by Underbrush Markers. Does this mean her entire crew can ignore the Concealment it gives as well? I would say no, but I can see it going both ways. Doesn't matter for Titania herself as she ignores Concealment anyways, but could be big for Aeslin.

[Nikodemus]

Quote

This made me thankful for Charge being a push, ignoring the severe terrain penalty.

Sorry to tell you, 3e push is impacted by severe terrain. See rulebook page 37:

Quote

Severe: Non-Place movement effects are reduced by half while any part of a model’s base is in Severe Terrain. If a model moves out of Severe Terrain, it continues the rest of its movement at its normal (non-halved) rate.

Quote

Bonus question which didn't come up during our game, but could be important to know for my friend. Titania's crew is unaffected by Underbrush Markers. Does this mean her entire crew can ignore the Concealment it gives as well?

By chance also on page 37, is a handy callout box that defines "unaffected by terrain":

Quote

 

UNAFFECTED BY TERRAIN
Some models are unaffected by certain types of terrain or terrain Markers. If a model is unaffected by a terrain trait, it ignores that trait for game purposes:

Severe: The model does not suffer the movement penalty of Severe Terrain.

Hazardous: The model does not suffer the effects of the Hazardous Terrain.

Concealment: This model ignores the Concealing Trait when drawing LoS

 

So yup. They get all the benefits and none of the penalties from terrain they're unaffected by.

[Tors]

To summon up:

- you lost one ~10 SS Model a turn because your opponent utilized about 35SS worth of models to do so.

- You prefered to not jump away with reflexes during Titanias Activation, nor the following (and it seems you didn't used the remaining daydream either), forfeiting more than 12" of moving LCB backwarts again and staying in those Bush Markers, to amplifiy the damage done to you. Instead you threw your whole cache at the Problem, thous wasting it on top.

- You didn't questioned any abilitys and thread ranges beforehand, because "real life gets in the way" and procceded to overextend one of your best models turn 1, to attack the one opposing model, you have to keep alive to get your sceme done. You didn't seem to utilize blocking terrain in the procces either (through i have no info about the terrain, so this could be unavoidable)

- You forfeited way before any scemes could be done, thous before the downside of using the majority of your force to spend AP killing could show.

 

I don't think Titania was the problem here. Some bad early decisions meeting an early alphastrike against an important model lead to you burying your head in the Sand and beeing frustrated, thous enableing more bad decisions on your side.

[whodares]

8 minutes ago, Tors said:

- you lost one ~10 SS Model a turn because your opponent utilized about 35SS worth of models to do so.

In a single Turn in a way that does not allow counterplay

 

8 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You prefered to not jump away with reflexes during Titanias Activation, nor the following (and it seems you didn't used the remaining daydream either), forfeiting more than 12" of moving LCB backwarts again and staying in those Bush Markers, to amplifiy the damage done to you. Instead you threw your whole cache at the Problem, thous wasting it on top.

Titania can place me within 2" of an Underbrush marker anyway. I used IR, but could not get away from any Underbrush. He placed me between 2 Underbrush markers, which means I had no way of getting outside of 2" of a marker, even with a 3" push., Part of this was our terrain on setup as well, but he can set up (I think) 7 Underbrush markers on the start of the game, can create extra's AND can move them with Titania. No chance in hell to get out of the trap once he gets going. There pas no way a 50mm model base was NOT touching any severe terrain once the trap had activated and he only needed 3 Brush markers to achieve this out of the 6-7 he placed AT THE START OF THE GAME.

12 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You didn't questioned any abilitys and thread ranges beforehand, because "real life gets in the way" and procceded to overextend one of your best models turn 1, to attack the one opposing model, you have to keep alive to get your sceme done. You didn't seem to utilize blocking terrain in the procces either (through i have no info about the terrain, so this could be unavoidable)

Blocking terrain only works against Actions which have a gun Symbol, which Titania doesn't have. Titania has Flight on Mv 6 with an 8" NON-SHOOTING attack that allows for placements, Injured and min 3 damage, not to mention the of the bonusses this Action has. This single action has everything possible in Malifaux that you want from an Attack action and it's on a Master that has 3 AP. Imagine this action targetting WP and giving it to Dreamer. People would be crying for nerfs, but for Titania it's fine to have something on this power scale on 2 models?

Regarding the overextending: Titania with a single Move has a 14" Threat range. This now happened Turn 1, but it also happened Turn 2. You're basicly saying: stay away from Titania, who has a 6" Flight and 8" overpowered/overtuned attack. That's like saying: M2E Nikodem was fine, just don't engage any of his models and hope he doesn't scheme with them instead then.

17 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You forfeited way before any scemes could be done, thous before the downside of using the majority of your force to spend AP killing could show.

Considering I had no way of scoring Take Prisoner and Power Ritual was highly likely not going to work, he had Take Prisoner and Search The Ruins guaranteed at the end of Turn 2. My opponent had easy acces to 7 points and I had no way of scoring beyond 1 Point for Strat and maybe 1 point for Scheme.

At the end of Turn 2 he had killed:

• Chompy
• Teddy
• Summoned Stiched
• 2 Summoned Alps

I had killed

• Autumn Knight

Let's be fair here, there was no downside to killing that much. He effectively destroyed Dreamer's crew because focus-firing on an Injured +2-+5 model will absolutely demolish it without any possible counterplay. He could still do his schemes because he only needed 3 models for Chompy and 3 for Teddy. The rest was easy pickings.

 

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

Sorry to tell you, 3e push is impacted by severe terrain. See rulebook page 37:

By chance also on page 37, is a handy callout box that defines "unaffected by terrain":

So yup. They get all the benefits and none of the penalties from terrain they're unaffected by.

So I played Push wrong, but at least we played the rest of the terrain correct. I knew I read it somewhere, but very much thanks for reaffirming. I can only imagine the horror people faced before Concealing got changed back in Closed Beta when it was also working on Melee actions.

[katadder]

just sounds like 1st time playing it. you will overcome dont worry, just play more.

if you had read his cards you might have seen more and countered as you have some very good models in the crew yourself. plus things like lucid dreams, or daydreams that ignore armour and can attack wp or df (so great against autumn knights. summoning in stiched etc

try playing some more and learning from mistakes and hopefully realise that titania is definitely not the worst offender  

[santaclaws01]

Firstly, he should have only placed 5 at the start of the game, and all of them have to be 2" away from any other markers. Then any other markers they place with Germinate have to be 2" from each other, so the only way for markers to be within 2" of each other is with The Queen's Command. So, you sent your 8 wd beater who's only defense is Terrifying and Butterfly Jump(which gets hampered by severe terrain) straight into the enemy crew alone without knowing what that crew can do. Right off the bat this is 100% your fault. Secondly, you played Injured wrong. It hard caps at -2 to Df and Wp regardless of the value on it. So yeah, your opponent *only* needed 3 whole high quality model activations to kill a model with 8 wds because you over extended that model and put it in immediate range of all 3 of them, and instead of using Dreamer and your last Daydream or Teddy to get it of range of the other models you did... what? Activated LCB in range of an aura that would damage you instead of getting him out first with Dreamer or a Daydream. This would also have the added bonus of getting Chompy near your models so they can use the Assist action and remove his Injured. And then once you saw how good Titania's attack is, you decided to leave Teddy, who has worse stats but slightly more wounds, within range for Titania to spend her entire turn attacking him.


So yeah, Titania's crew can seem overpowered when you're misplaying important rules about how Injured works, completely ignoring your abilities to save a model, and overextend that model in the first place despite no knowledge of how the other crew works.

Also, you're complaining about all this amazing offensive capabilities with good defense to go with it, but look at Teddy. 3/4/6 with swallow you whole. Regenartion 1, armor 1, healing anytime a model it's engaged with fails a Wp duel, I've Got Your Back with a trigger to heal for 2, and Consume which allows you to just eat your fodder summons to heal up equal to how much health they have. Then let's look at the healing available in the crew. Coppelius heals all nightmares in pulse 3 of the target with Unhinge. Serena Bowman has a 1/2/3 heal that also removes a condition and has the swift action trigger. Dreamer has Your Nightmare with the My Loyal Servent trigger and a bonus action to pulse out shielded. Not to mention that every nightmare aside from Daydreams has Feed on Fear, many of them have a trigger on an action to heal, and then we also have Alps who put all enemies around them on a negative to their damage flips.

[Nikodemus]

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Secondly, you played Injured wrong. It hard caps at -2 to Df and Wp regardless of the value on it.

 

My 3.22.19 (latest?) beta rulebook says:

Quote

Injured +X: This model suffers -X Df and Wp. During the End Phase, end this Condition

Nothing about them capping that I can see.

I do agree with the commenters that based on the OP Titania doesn't sound that out of whack (I've got no play experience with/against her to back this up). Lots of matchups can lead into that if you rush in blind.

[santaclaws01]

9 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

 

My 3.22.19 (latest?) beta rulebook says:

Nothing about them capping that I can see.

I do agree with the commenters that based on the OP Titania doesn't sound that out of whack (I've got no play experience with/against her to back this up). Lots of matchups can lead into that if you rush in blind.

Oh right, they did remove that near the end. That's probably when they made it able to be removed by Assist. So sorry about saying you played that wrong Whodares.

[whodares]

36 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Firstly, he should have only placed 5 at the start of the game, and all of them have to be 2" away from any other markers. Then any other markers they place with Germinate have to be 2" from each other, so the only way for markers to be within 2" of each other is with The Queen's Command. So, you sent your 8 wd beater who's only defense is Terrifying and Butterfly Jump(which gets hampered by severe terrain) straight into the enemy crew alone without knowing what that crew can do. Right off the bat this is 100% your fault. Secondly, you played Injured wrong. It hard caps at -2 to Df and Wp regardless of the value on it. So yeah, your opponent *only* needed 3 whole high quality model activations to kill a model with 8 wds because you over extended that model and put it in immediate range of all 3 of them, and instead of using Dreamer and your last Daydream or Teddy to get it of range of the other models you did... what? Activated LCB in range of an aura that would damage you instead of getting him out first with Dreamer or a Daydream. This would also have the added bonus of getting Chompy near your models so they can use the Assist action and remove his Injured. And then once you saw how good Titania's attack is, you decided to leave Teddy, who has worse stats but slightly more wounds, within range for Titania to spend her entire turn attacking him.

Just to make sure you saw: LCB had only gone up about 5" from Daydream pushes. He was just within 14" of Titania. She pulled him into the crew with her 2 attacks. It was well played by my opponent, but an 8" range non-shooting Attack which does 2/4/5 (3/5/6) WITH Place, WITH Injured WITH +flip on attack MIGHT JUST BE overtuned. Titania has beater damage with pre-nerf Kitty Dumont levels of displacement and this is somehow called fine? LCB was hardstuck in that place without any way of getting out thanks to the Underbrush markers

I did not move LCB into Titania's range during his activation as Titania placed him there herself. I had to activate him to get the Regeneration and I was hoping on getting some healing from his Trigger, which did not work out unfortunately. You know, due to having no cards and no stones and all.

I would also like you to note that it took 3 models because I spent 6 stones to keep him alive, used Dreamer's 0 for Shielded AND HE STILL DIED Turn 1. If I hadn't used stones, Titania + Aeslin would have been enough. My opponent also did not use a full rotation of damage, because otherwise he would have gotten another attack off with Titania instead of moving this time around.

Regarding Teddy: I brought him in to use his Free Action to get Chompy out of the action, but unfortunately it was not enough. Teddy needed his entire activation + a Daydream push to even get close enough to attempt his 0 action. That alone shows how far away LCB was displaced from Titania's attacks.

Also please provide me with the notice that Injured caps at -2? The pdf of 22/03 does not mention this at all.

 

49 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Also, you're complaining about all this amazing offensive capabilities with good defense to go with it, but look at Teddy. 3/4/6 with swallow you whole. Regenartion 1, armor 1, healing anytime a model it's engaged with fails a Wp duel, I've Got Your Back with a trigger to heal for 2, and Consume which allows you to just eat your fodder summons to heal up equal to how much health they have. Then let's look at the healing available in the crew. Coppelius heals all nightmares in pulse 3 of the target with Unhinge. Serena Bowman has a 1/2/3 heal that also removes a condition and has the swift action trigger. Dreamer has Your Nightmare with the My Loyal Servent trigger and a bonus action to pulse out shielded. Not to mention that every nightmare aside from Daydreams has Feed on Fear, many of them have a trigger on an action to heal, and then we also have Alps who put all enemies around them on a negative to their damage flips.

Swallow you whole only works if you kill a model. Armor +1 on a model with 4 Df means he's getting hit ... a lot. Add some Injured to that and you might as well just remove it from the table. 2 Turns in a row where a model's defences are completely stripped and it would only continued for every other turn ever.

Healing works only if a model he's engaged with fails a WP duel, but I wish you luck on that vs Titania and her WP7.  Aeslin has 6 and then you have Killjoy/Autumn Knight at 5. Those are not stats you can just roll over. You seem to forget you actually have to win duels to get those healing procs AND they have to be in Engagement range. You're also suggesting to bunch up against Aeslin who can Blast Injured.

 

Dreamer is certainly a crew that can't complain about healing, but they are all dependant on specific things for your opponent to fail. Meanwhile they get destroyed from the Injured spam the Titania crew does, which also allows her crew to keep cards to win those duels against you. Healing will only get you as far as -3 Df and WP allows you to get and no amount of healing will save a model getting banged by 3 models of min 2-3 damage per hit which is guaranteed to hit due to the aforementioned Injured.

 

17 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

 

My 3.22.19 (latest?) beta rulebook says:

Nothing about them capping that I can see.

I do agree with the commenters that based on the OP Titania doesn't sound that out of whack (I've got no play experience with/against her to back this up). Lots of matchups can lead into that if you rush in blind.

I suggest you try and find a player that plays Titania. I barely saw battle reports of her passing by after the Concealing nerf and she was largely left untouched throughout the rest of both beta's.

 

 

Just a side-note on comparison: Titania with her Trigger has thesame damage track as Nekima. The difference is the Nekima has stat 7 vs Titania's Stat 6+ and the fact that Nekima needs to be in Melee range, while Titania is allowed 8" non-shooting. They both have a displacement, but Titania also has the Injured added on top of that. Titania is also a lot tankier than Nekima. Titania is basicly an upgraded Nekima at this point. Considering her thing is to be tanky, this is rather disturbing.

[Da Git]

 First off... Kneel before the true queen of malifaux... Muhahahahaha!

Now that's out of the way, time to actually contribute

Sounds like a rough game... to be honest though, it generally always is if you go into a crew blind... Do you at least have some idea what you can do next time? Eg. Don't end a push/move within 2" of an Underbrush Marker!

Also was the opponent spending stones or just getting lucky flips to get the Crows for her trigger?  Seriously, wish I had that luck though from what you posted! he passed every terror with Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy? And then hit everytime? That deck's on fire!

1 hour ago, whodares said:

Just a side-note on comparison: Titania with her Trigger has thesame damage track as Nekima. The difference is the Nekima has stat 7 vs Titania's Stat 6+ and the fact that Nekima needs to be in Melee range, while Titania is allowed 8" non-shooting. They both have a displacement, but Titania also has the Injured added on top of that. Titania is also a lot tankier than Nekima. Titania is basicly an upgraded Nekima at this point. Considering her thing is to be tanky, this is rather disturbing. 

Disagree with this comparison (& an master comparison, for that matter) for a few reasons

• You're looking at the attacks entirely in a bubble and ignoring everything else (although I would agree that Titania's the stronger master)... She also only gets the + if the target is in Severe terrain (admittedly, not hard)
• Titania needs to either get a crow or stone to get the trigger, Nekima has it built in so can use her triggers, which aren't bad.
• The reason I disagree with master comparisons is key words. A super master can have a rubbish keyword and be kinda-balanced (not counting versatile). This is where Nekima comes out on top IMO as Nephilim are a really good key word. Their raw speed and mass Flight will win you games (not too mention, they're rather hitty!). 

[whodares]

27 minutes ago, Da Git said:

 First off... Kneel before the true queen of malifaux... Muhahahahaha!

Now that's out of the way, time to actually contribute

Sounds like a rough game... to be honest though, it generally always is if you go into a crew blind... Do you at least have some idea what you can do next time? Eg. Don't end a push/move within 2" of an Underbrush Marker!

Also was the opponent spending stones or just getting lucky flips to get the Crows for her trigger?  Seriously, wish I had that luck though from what you posted! he passed every terror with Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy? And then hit everytime? That deck's on fire!

His deck was flipping well indeed. Turn 1 he only needed to cheat 2 cards offensively, of which 1 was to get a moderate damage instead of a weak damage. The other one was for a Terrifying check, but I can't recall if it was for Aeslin or Titania. I got unlucky as usual with my severes dropping into Lucid Dream or a negative damage flip with corresponding weak card).

Unfortunately the game was such a stomp that I did not learn anything from it. The crew has so many Underbrush markers so you can't avoid all of them. Titania cn also move them and then the placement begins. The MVP of the game was 100% Titania with a close runner-up for Aeslin. Injured stacking is broken in this crew with just both of them as they can easily get a model to -5 Df and Wp. Aeslin also has Blasts for more Injured spamming, so never keerp 2 models within a 50mm marker of eachother because those blasts WILL come. I mean, even the weak damage has an Injured Blast

 

33 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Disagree with this comparison (& an master comparison, for that matter) for a few reasons

• You're looking at the attacks entirely in a bubble and ignoring everything else (although I would agree that Titania's the stronger master)... She also only gets the + if the target is in Severe terrain (admittedly, not hard)
• Titania needs to either get a crow or stone to get the trigger, Nekima has it built in so can use her triggers, which aren't bad.
• The reason I disagree with master comparisons is key words. A super master can have a rubbish keyword and be kinda-balanced (not counting versatile). This is where Nekima comes out on top IMO as Nephilim are a really good key word. Their raw speed and mass Flight will win you games (not too mention, they're rather hitty!). 

I have not played against a (decent) Nekima player yet, but my impressions of her crew so far have not really amazed me. Black Blood is their thing and they are fast, so they can get in your face. Their damage tracks (purely damage tracks) are average. Their defensive tech is lackluster and Regeneration can't really keep you up.

I would say they shine in a strat + scheme pool where you have to go all over the place so they can't get focussed down. I would mostly say that Titania's crew would be superior to Nekima's crew because Titania can bunch up and barely gets punished for it thanks to Hard To Wound, Cruel Disappointment, Titania's/Aeslin placement tricks with the Underbrush markers and Killjoy's Hooked Chain.

 

But again, I have not played against a competent Nekima player. I completely destroyed the one I did play against with pre-buff Hamelin. That's just something that shouldn't happen ever.

[katadder]

well nekima has alot more healing than regen. auras for healing when they would take black blood, so those 1 damage blasts basically do nothing if bunched up. eat corpses for more healing and also allowing growth. pushes, fly with me, flight itself, all upgrade minion abilities on a mature neph.

Titania is good, but she can easily be beaten too, just requires different play style than running straight at them. consider hard to wound models, also regen and armour teddy is great. her crew tends to cap out at range 8 and you have widow weaver and bandersnatch who are far more mobile. consider throwing summoned alps at them (people do fail terrifying alot, especially late turn when no cards in hand), or stitched and when the stitched dies that dreamer summoned, summon another off its scrap with widow weaver.

honestly it just seems like a bad game, the game is new and has alot of gotcha moments at the moment and I have reacted similarly after a game but then have a rant and go look at ways to beat it.

[Tors]

5 hours ago, whodares said:

In a single Turn in a way that does not allow counterplay

 

--> of course in a single turn! How much longer should a model stay when beeing attack by thrice his value?

5 hours ago, whodares said:

Titania can place me within 2" of an Underbrush marker anyway. I used IR, but could not get away from any Underbrush. He placed me between 2 Underbrush markers, which means I had no way of getting outside of 2" of a marker, even with a 3" push., Part of this was our terrain on setup as well, but he can set up (I think) 7 Underbrush markers on the start of the game, can create extra's AND can move them with Titania. No chance in hell to get out of the trap once he gets going. There pas no way a 50mm model base was NOT touching any severe terrain once the trap had activated and he only needed 3 Brush markers to achieve this out of the 6-7 he placed AT THE START OF THE GAME.

 

--> The List you posted creates 5 (maybe 4, not sure with the waldgeist). The extras are created within 6" and on cost of attack actions of those models models you fear so tremendously. Assuming your Model is in a perfect triangle between 3 Markers, then you can't get out with only butterfly jump indeed. But i have to say that is the worst possible placement for your model, only achievable if you are placed in b2b with the First marker and the other two germinated or moved in contact with your model, as the start-of-game placing rules prevend them to be so close. So this turn 1 perfect triangle and walk + 2 attacks from titania is only possible if she hit the queens command triggern in addition. That would mean she hit 3 non-printed triggers without cheating while winning the duels and TNs. Thats pretty good!

5 hours ago, whodares said:

 

Blocking terrain only works against Actions which have a gun Symbol, which Titania doesn't have. Titania has Flight on Mv 6 with an 8" NON-SHOOTING attack that allows for placements, Injured and min 3 damage, not to mention the of the bonusses this Action has. This single action has everything possible in Malifaux that you want from an Attack action and it's on a Master that has 3 AP. Imagine this action targetting WP and giving it to Dreamer. People would be crying for nerfs, but for Titania it's fine to have something on this power scale on 2 models?

 

--> Blocking as in no LOS. And yes she is, she can't summon stiched after all. Also i would like stunned and or distracted in addition. And targeting wp would also be great with titania! Maybe it could ignore LOS and have the crows trigger build in. You see? Awakened Hunger has hardly everything possible and everything what i want. So after we both hyperboled a little, i think we can go back, to what it actually does and stop dreaming about theoretically similiar actions that could be printed on other models stat cards, can't we?

5 hours ago, whodares said:

 

Regarding the overextending: Titania with a single Move has a 14" Threat range. This now happened Turn 1, but it also happened Turn 2. You're basicly saying: stay away from Titania, who has a 6" Flight and 8" overpowered/overtuned attack. That's like saying: M2E Nikodem was fine, just don't engage any of his models and hope he doesn't scheme with them instead then.

 

--> not Overextending as in stay away just slightly above 8" or use LOS blocking/dense Terrain so she has to spend her AP walking. Thats 3-6 Damage less per AP Walking!

5 hours ago, whodares said:

 

Considering I had no way of scoring Take Prisoner and Power Ritual was highly likely not going to work, he had Take Prisoner and Search The Ruins guaranteed at the end of Turn 2. My opponent had easy acces to 7 points and I had no way of scoring beyond 1 Point for Strat and maybe 1 point for Scheme.

 

--> every summoned peasent (besides Dadreams) and every model you brought is capable of scoring take prisoner and power ritual. Make the game wide, Titania/Aeslin/Killjoy can't be everywhere at the same time and killing one or two of them is perfectly doable with the likes of stiched/Teddy/Chompy/Coppelius. Dreamer has a viable shooting too. And Daydream pushes and chain activation enables even more then 14" attack vectors.

5 hours ago, whodares said:

At the end of Turn 2 he had killed:

• Chompy
• Teddy
• Summoned Stiched
• 2 Summoned Alps

I had killed

• Autumn Knight

Let's be fair here, there was no downside to killing that much. He effectively destroyed Dreamer's crew because focus-firing on an Injured +2-+5 model will absolutely demolish it without any possible counterplay. He could still do his schemes because he only needed 3 models for Chompy and 3 for Teddy. The rest was easy pickings.

--> No downside? He spend X AP per killed model. Your got-killed-List containes about 35HP thats 13 times attacking and hitting all those non Build in triggers. So 13 AP! Not accounting for Amor, Regeneration, Terrifying and SS Prevention or any healing or wallking within range. I would say its More reasonable to assume he needs at least 5 more (and thats ery very conservative!) So 18AP from valuable models during turn 1&2, his Crew only generates 15per Turn (not counting moving with free actions and or onslaught and so on). I think thats a heafty price tak. What did you do with your first 20-30AP besides picking the worst spots to stand?

 

But i get the feeling the whole reason of this thread is to whine, pointing the Finger at evil Titania and pretending not being at fault for anything, so godspeed to you! I am out.

 

[whodares]

25 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> of course in a single turn! How much longer should a model stay when beeing attack by thrice his value?

People complained about alpha strikes in M2E. M3E was supposed to take this away for the most part. M3E is supposed to be less damaging and more of an equalizer. To be honest, this just shouldn't be able to be done with only 3 models invested.

42 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> The List you posted creates 5 (maybe 4, not sure with the waldgeist). The extras are created within 6" and on cost of attack actions of those models models you fear so tremendously. Assuming your Model is in a perfect triangle between 3 Markers, then you can't get out with only butterfly jump indeed. But i have to say that is the worst possible placement for your model, only achievable if you are placed in b2b with the First marker and the other two germinated or moved in contact with your model, as the start-of-game placing rules prevend them to be so close. So this turn 1 perfect triangle and walk + 2 attacks from titania is only possible if she hit the queens command triggern in addition. That would mean she hit 3 non-printed triggers without cheating while winning the duels and TNs. Thats pretty good!

If only the markers were the only terrain, the models did not block movement and everyone had flying. If only Titania didn't have a Free Action which moves 1-2 of those markers and also deals damage. You do know that Injured makes it extremely easy to hit things and she gets a + to attack to rub it in even more, right?

56 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> Blocking as in no LOS. And yes she is, she can't summon stiched after all. Also i would like stunned and or distracted in addition. And targeting wp would also be great with titania! Maybe it could ignore LOS and have the crows trigger build in. You see? Awakened Hunger has hardly everything possible and everything what i want. So after we both hyperboled a little, i think we can go back, to what it actually does and stop dreaming about theoretically similiar actions that could be printed on other models stat cards, can't we?

Find me an Action in the entire game which is stronger than this one. I'll wait. Titania is possibly one of the strongest models in the entire game due to how overloaded that one single action is. There is 99.9% no case to be made to even consider using her melee attack action. It really feels like this action should have a gun symbol on it to add some sort of balance to it.

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> not Overextending as in stay away just slightly above 8" or use LOS blocking/dense Terrain so she has to spend her AP walking. Thats 3-6 Damage less per AP Walking!

I'll stay in my final 3" of the deployment zone, that'll teach her! My model was close to 14" away from her and she still managed to pull in into combat while dealing close to half it's Health in damage AND giving Injured despite using stones to block damage. She deals a ton of damage, has a pseudo-Lure AND makes it trivial for any model to hit all in a single Action, which she can use up to 3 times in an Activation.

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> every summoned peasent (besides Dadreams) and every model you brought is capable of scoring take prisoner and power ritual. Make the game wide, Titania/Aeslin/Killjoy can't be everywhere at the same time and killing one or two of them is perfectly doable with the likes of stiched/Teddy/Chompy/Coppelius. Dreamer has a viable shooting too. And Daydream pushes and chain activation enables even more then 14" attack vectors.

It's hard to score something if your models are all dead. In order to score for the reveal of Take Prisoner, no enemy models are allowed to be within 4" of the chosen model. That's a slight problem when walking up means instant doom and certain death.

Titania herself can kill most normal models in a single Activation, Aeslin stands in the back firing Injured Blasts and Killjoy can go solo and kill a model there as well. Killjoy is not a problem, but you have to kill him several time for it to stick pr he comes back via Blood Sacrifice.

Aeslin and Titania handing out Injured like sweet candy and still doing a boatload of damage at thesame time might be too much. Remember when people complained about Zoraida being able to stack Injured via the Doll, so they only allowed the doll to hand out 1 Injured? This is getting close to thesame, except dealing more damage.

Killing Titania is rather hard as she can use stones, has HtW, Cruel Disappointment and Life Leech. She can, if needed, swap out some damage for Healing on her Triggers as well. Aeslin is in the back, so you generally shouldn't be able to reach her unless the opponent messes up or has some sort of trap set up in which he baits you to go for her.

Dreamer has viable shooting too, but he has a gun symbol. He also can't ignore Concealing and Cover. His damage track is lower, but that's because he ignores Armor and Incorporeal, which is a fair trade. He can choose Df or Wp to shoot on, but he generally likes Wp due to being able to get his summons out that way.

 

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> No downside? He spend X AP per killed model. Your got-killed-List containes about 35HP thats 13 times attacking and hitting all those non Build in triggers. So 13 AP! Not accounting for Amor, Regeneration, Terrifying and SS Prevention or any healing or wallking within range. I would say its More reasonable to assume he needs at least 5 more (and thats ery very conservative!) So 18AP from valuable models during turn 1&2, his Crew only generates 15per Turn (not counting moving with free actions and or onslaught and so on). I think thats a heafty price tak. What did you do with your first 20-30AP besides picking the worst spots to stand?

Look at the amount of stones killed via those Actions. In 2 Turns he kills Teddy (10 stones), Chompy (8 stones), Stitched (6 stones) and 2x Alp (10 stones) for a grand total of 34 stones. He spent about 20 Actions on it thanks to some other models also helping out. That's close to 2 stones per AP spent in value, which is insane.

What did I do? First an entire Turn to even get in range, because not everyone can place models up to 10". Then I tried to go for an attack with multiple models in order to somehow get some failed WP duels to get my summons out. Eventually Coppelius went MVP with his TN13 Pulse, but that was for a part because my opponent already knew the game was over. Teddy and LCB were already dead at this point in time and all I got was Teddy killing an Autumn Knight. Who could have guessed models become fodder once they reach 0 Df and Wp due to Injured?

 

1 hour ago, Tors said:

But i get the feeling the whole reason of this thread is to whine, pointing the Finger at evil Titania and pretending not being at fault for anything, so godspeed to you! I am out.

Your solution to the problem is staying out of range. You can't play Malifaux properly if you're not allowed to move outside of your deployment zone. In order to score schemes, you have to move ever so slightly and you can't entirely give up the First Turn because they could potentially move a bit forward and Place you into their army. No matter how far you are, Titania can and will be able to get you.

You feel like the guy defending M2E Nicodem and first week M3E Kirai. If the counterplay is to not play against a certain Master, perhaps there might be a problem with said Master?

[Hawkoon]

Titania was widely played in both closed and open beta (I had a few games with her myself), and as far as I remember none of the testers found her broken in her current state.

Keep in mind that a single unprepared game isn't a very reliable way to judge performance(that's why the game has been through so many months of betatesting with a big playerbase). So now that you know what she can do, I suggest you try playing against her again, or even better, try playing her yourself.

 

PS: injured can be lowered by 1/2/3 by having another friendly model within 2" do an assist action.

[katadder]

4 hours ago, whodares said:

People complained about alpha strikes in M2E. M3E was supposed to take this away for the most part. M3E is supposed to be less damaging and more of an equalizer. To be honest, this just shouldn't be able to be done with only 3 models invested.

If only the markers were the only terrain, the models did not block movement and everyone had flying. If only Titania didn't have a Free Action which moves 1-2 of those markers and also deals damage. You do know that Injured makes it extremely easy to hit things and she gets a + to attack to rub it in even more, right?

Find me an Action in the entire game which is stronger than this one. I'll wait. Titania is possibly one of the strongest models in the entire game due to how overloaded that one single action is. There is 99.9% no case to be made to even consider using her melee attack action. It really feels like this action should have a gun symbol on it to add some sort of balance to it.

I'll stay in my final 3" of the deployment zone, that'll teach her! My model was close to 14" away from her and she still managed to pull in into combat while dealing close to half it's Health in damage AND giving Injured despite using stones to block damage. She deals a ton of damage, has a pseudo-Lure AND makes it trivial for any model to hit all in a single Action, which she can use up to 3 times in an Activation.

It's hard to score something if your models are all dead. In order to score for the reveal of Take Prisoner, no enemy models are allowed to be within 4" of the chosen model. That's a slight problem when walking up means instant doom and certain death.

Titania herself can kill most normal models in a single Activation, Aeslin stands in the back firing Injured Blasts and Killjoy can go solo and kill a model there as well. Killjoy is not a problem, but you have to kill him several time for it to stick pr he comes back via Blood Sacrifice.

Aeslin and Titania handing out Injured like sweet candy and still doing a boatload of damage at thesame time might be too much. Remember when people complained about Zoraida being able to stack Injured via the Doll, so they only allowed the doll to hand out 1 Injured? This is getting close to thesame, except dealing more damage.

Killing Titania is rather hard as she can use stones, has HtW, Cruel Disappointment and Life Leech. She can, if needed, swap out some damage for Healing on her Triggers as well. Aeslin is in the back, so you generally shouldn't be able to reach her unless the opponent messes up or has some sort of trap set up in which he baits you to go for her.

Dreamer has viable shooting too, but he has a gun symbol. He also can't ignore Concealing and Cover. His damage track is lower, but that's because he ignores Armor and Incorporeal, which is a fair trade. He can choose Df or Wp to shoot on, but he generally likes Wp due to being able to get his summons out that way.

 

Look at the amount of stones killed via those Actions. In 2 Turns he kills Teddy (10 stones), Chompy (8 stones), Stitched (6 stones) and 2x Alp (10 stones) for a grand total of 34 stones. He spent about 20 Actions on it thanks to some other models also helping out. That's close to 2 stones per AP spent in value, which is insane.

What did I do? First an entire Turn to even get in range, because not everyone can place models up to 10". Then I tried to go for an attack with multiple models in order to somehow get some failed WP duels to get my summons out. Eventually Coppelius went MVP with his TN13 Pulse, but that was for a part because my opponent already knew the game was over. Teddy and LCB were already dead at this point in time and all I got was Teddy killing an Autumn Knight. Who could have guessed models become fodder once they reach 0 Df and Wp due to Injured?

 

Your solution to the problem is staying out of range. You can't play Malifaux properly if you're not allowed to move outside of your deployment zone. In order to score schemes, you have to move ever so slightly and you can't entirely give up the First Turn because they could potentially move a bit forward and Place you into their army. No matter how far you are, Titania can and will be able to get you.

You feel like the guy defending M2E Nicodem and first week M3E Kirai. If the counterplay is to not play against a certain Master, perhaps there might be a problem with said Master?

well you might as well just quit then because its obviously broken - can I have your stuff 😂

seriously, 1 unprepared game isnt enough. she really isnt that good, but now you are just coming across all whiney. 
know that she is bringing terrain, bring flight or incorporeal models. you talk about broken but stitched can do a 3/4/5 damage track they can guarantee will go off. dreamer can stack his deck etc. this is why top players are playing dreamer and zoraida in Nvb as card manipulation is king

[Morgan Vening]

Just something I'm having trouble with, but can someone point me to where being in base contact with terrain counts as being IN the terrain?

Cause it does matter for Awakened Hunger's . The Into Thorns trigger obviously applies, but the only section I've found is...
"Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0" of that terrain."

Seems to say that base contact isn't overlapping, therefore it's not "in". The section in brackets seems to only to clarify what 0" is.

Obviously, Queen's Command allows Titania to slide the Undergrowth under a model easily enough, but it seems like it needs Bultingin or Rougarou or the Gorar to be involved to push it in again if it walked out on it's action.

So, while Chompy might have had to eat Titania's attacks, he shouldn't have had to eat it from Aeslin if he moved out. And with Mv6, that should get Chompy off an Undergrowth Marker.

Unless I'm mistaken?

[whodares]

8 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just something I'm having trouble with, but can someone point me to where being in base contact with terrain counts as being IN the terrain?

Cause it does matter for Awakened Hunger's . The Into Thorns trigger obviously applies, but the only section I've found is...
"Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0" of that terrain."

Seems to say that base contact isn't overlapping, therefore it's not "in". The section in brackets seems to only to clarify what 0" is.

Obviously, Queen's Command allows Titania to slide the Undergrowth under a model easily enough, but it seems like it needs Bultingin or Rougarou or the Gorar to be involved to push it in again if it walked out on it's action.

So, while Chompy might have had to eat Titania's attacks, he shouldn't have had to eat it from Aeslin if he moved out. And with Mv6, that should get Chompy off an Undergrowth Marker.

Unless I'm mistaken?

Page 36 of the rulebook:

• Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0"  of that terrain.

This should be the part "If a model's base is touching terrain". Being in base contact means you are "touching" it because otherwise you could never do 0" attacks. I believe this was clarified in a post on the old beta forums, but I obviously can't find that. I hope they clarify this in the final version of the rulebook.

Getting completely through a 50mm marker is just doable for Chompy, but it wouldn't help against Aeslin. Aeslin doesn't have the + on Attack that Titania has, but she does have the suit built-in to place you back into the Terrain. Depending on how you are placed before by Titania, just like in my game when I was placed next to a marker and into Engagement, there might not be a way to get 2" away from an Undergrowth marker, even when you spend 2 AP just walking.

[(Keenan)]

Jesus dude give people water if you're bringing this much salt. 

You got rocked because you didn't play what you brought properly and you went into a crew that you knew nothing about. It happens to literally everyone. If it bothers you that much play more until you find a way to win. Or quit altogether I really don't care, but everything you've posted here has been nothing but whiny. 

[whodares]

6 minutes ago, (Keenan) said:

Jesus dude give people water if you're bringing this much salt. 

You got rocked because you didn't play what you brought properly and you went into a crew that you knew nothing about. It happens to literally everyone. If it bothers you that much play more until you find a way to win. Or quit altogether I really don't care, but everything you've posted here has been nothing but whiny. 

Thank you for your very insightful reply. /s

 

So far the advice I've gotten is to not play against Titania. Give up entire Turns of positioning because of how much utility and displacement she has. That is not a solution, but a problem.

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, whodares said:

Page 36 of the rulebook:

• Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0"  of that terrain.

This should be the part "If a model's base is touching terrain". Being in base contact means you are "touching" it because otherwise you could never do 0" attacks. I believe this was clarified in a post on the old beta forums, but I obviously can't find that. I hope they clarify this in the final version of the rulebook.

Getting completely through a 50mm marker is just doable for Chompy, but it wouldn't help against Aeslin. Aeslin doesn't have the + on Attack that Titania has, but she does have the suit built-in to place you back into the Terrain. Depending on how you are placed before by Titania, just like in my game when I was placed next to a marker and into Engagement, there might not be a way to get 2" away from an Undergrowth marker, even when you spend 2 AP just walking.

That quote seems to say that base contact isn't "in terrain" since it says there is a difference between touching and overlapping. You can be in base contact with Impassable terrain without being in the terrain. SO its fairly easy to get the into the thorns bonus, but much harder to get the flip. Touching is enough to use range 0 actions, so you have to be able to do that to things like models which also supports touching and in  being 2 different things. Page 28 when you look at the dropping impassible markers it specifies you can do it in base contact but you can't do it so it overlaps the creating model.

I don't know how much that would have changed your game, but probably a lot of those positive attack flips wouldn't have happened (Although they possibly shouldn't anyway since you could have butterfly jumped outside of the terrain each time even if you can't avoid the into the thorns trigger ). The other obvious tactical suggestion is to make sure you have models ready to Assist to remove Injured after Titanias go. Injured is a pretty strong condition, and if you know you're going to be facing it, (as you would in this match up normally) you probably ought to have  a plan to deal with it. 

(You're possible right, you might struggle to stop her walk- push the marker 3" get a positive attack flip hit you with injured, but because she will resolve the trigger before you do your butterfly jump you ought to not be in severe terrain for the next attack. Being more than 3" from an underbush marker may be tricky depending on your table, but at least its something under your control).

23 hours ago, whodares said:

At the end of Turn 2 he had killed:

• Chompy
• Teddy
• Summoned Stiched
• 2 Summoned Alps

I had killed

• Autumn Knight

Let's be fair here, there was no downside to killing that much. He effectively destroyed Dreamer's crew because focus-firing on an Injured +2-+5 model will absolutely demolish it without any possible counterplay. He could still do his schemes because he only needed 3 models for Chompy and 3 for Teddy. The rest was easy pickings.

 

A different way of looking at this is you lost your totem and a 10 SS model. Your opponent lost a 7 ss model. I have no idea what you did with the rest of your AP, but we know that your opponent spent most of their AP in killing those models (And you spent 2 master AP summoning).  Your opponent also seemed to have an amazingly high number of good crow cards to be getting that Trigger over and over again.

Now it may well be that you were right and you had no hope from here on in. But if your game plan was this reliant on Teddy and Chompy, it was potentially a flawed plan or just unable to cope with the huge amount of luck going against you.

 

Not knowing how the game went, I assume Chompy was left in range of Killjoy and Aeslin.  Which I think means that Chompy was also in range of either Killjoy or Aeslin to attack them(Butterfly jump means they can't be in range to attack you, and out of range for you to attack them). He would probably not succeed in killing them with out a little luck, but he should have made a decent mess of them ready for something else.

I've not faced Titania, but I always take any report saying "I faced the crew once and it slaughtered me, it must be broken" with a pinch of salt. Malifaux has always had cases where not knowing your opponents crew capabilities will remove you from a game, and I don't think that is ever likely to go away. If The Crew was able to do this to you several. times in a row when you have triued to counter it, with a wide range of crews then it might be a problem.

[whodares]

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

That quote seems to say that base contact isn't "in terrain" since it says there is a difference between touching and overlapping. You can be in base contact with Impassable terrain without being in the terrain. SO its fairly easy to get the into the thorns bonus, but much harder to get the flip. Touching is enough to use range 0 actions, so you have to be able to do that to things like models which also supports touching and in  being 2 different things. Page 28 when you look at the dropping impassible markers it specifies you can do it in base contact but you can't do it so it overlaps the creating model.

I don't know how much that would have changed your game, but probably a lot of those positive attack flips wouldn't have happened (Although they possibly shouldn't anyway since you could have butterfly jumped outside of the terrain each time even if you can't avoid the into the thorns trigger ). The other obvious tactical suggestion is to make sure you have models ready to Assist to remove Injured after Titanias go. Injured is a pretty strong condition, and if you know you're going to be facing it, (as you would in this match up normally) you probably ought to have  a plan to deal with it. 

(You're possible right, you might struggle to stop her walk- push the marker 3" get a positive attack flip hit you with injured, but because she will resolve the trigger before you do your butterfly jump you ought to not be in severe terrain for the next attack. Being more than 3" from an underbush marker may be tricky depending on your table, but at least its something under your control).

I'll have to keep that in mind, but it would not have mattered for Chompy unfortunately. Because Titania can move Underbrush markers, she created a situation where it was not possible to be outside of base contact. It was masterful of the player to have seen and forced this, but it feels bad to be against.

 

The situation was something like this: my right side was a wall. the left side had a Blocking crate stopping pushes. In a diagonal was the Autumn Knight. Next to the crate, close to the Autumn Knight was an Undergrowth marker. After moving a second marker, they were close to eachother. Chompy being placed meant his base was touching both markers at thesame time, leaving me no room to push out with Reflexes. 3" because we played push through severe terrain wrong, was not enough to get out of range because I could only go straight though the Undergrowth markers. All the rest had me blocked. Right side was the wall, left side was the crate and straight ahead was the Autumn Knight, which meant I was still within the Undergrowth next to him. If I had a 30mm base, I could have squeezed through, but Chompy's (and Teddy's) 50mm base made that impossible. Once the initial place was done, there was no way of getting out.

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

Now it may well be that you were right and you had no hope from here on in. But if your game plan was this reliant on Teddy and Chompy, it was potentially a flawed plan or just unable to cope with the huge amount of luck going against you.

Considering the strategy was Reckoning, I would say I was indeed rather reliant on Teddy and Chompy.

Widow Weaver was off to a side dropping markers, but she was going to get the Hooded Rider against her. Not really a matchup I feel confident about to be honest. Weaver can run, but Hooded has close to thesame amount of mobility leaving her no time to drop markers; She would have to fight, win and then still somehow find the time to drop all the markers as required.

Coppelius was coming in for a flank in Turn 2 and managed to Slow a couple of models with his pulse, but by that Time both Teddy and LCB were already dead.

My summons died before they could do activate due to blasts from Aeslin and a single blast attack from Hooded Rider before he went off to the side to intercept Widow Weaver.

If I could have activated my Stitched Together, I might have had a chance of dealing significant damage to Aeslin and potentially kill her. Unfortunately at the end of Turn 2, Aeslin was only Slow and had taken no damage whatsoever.

 

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

Not knowing how the game went, I assume Chompy was left in range of Killjoy and Aeslin.  Which I think means that Chompy was also in range of either Killjoy or Aeslin to attack them(Butterfly jump means they can't be in range to attack you, and out of range for you to attack them). He would probably not succeed in killing them with out a little luck, but he should have made a decent mess of them ready for something else.

I've not faced Titania, but I always take any report saying "I faced the crew once and it slaughtered me, it must be broken" with a pinch of salt. Malifaux has always had cases where not knowing your opponents crew capabilities will remove you from a game, and I don't think that is ever likely to go away. If The Crew was able to do this to you several. times in a row when you have triued to counter it, with a wide range of crews then it might be a problem.

Due to the placements of the markers, terrain and Autumn Knight, I did not have a charge path available to get Chompy onto the backline. The only time I would have had that path, Chompy would be engaged by the Autumn Knight. Unfortunately their Killjoy did have a charge lane available on Chompy, which meant he was nearly certain to die.

 

The problem I have with Titania is that this situation is rather easy to create. Since both Titania and Aeslin have no notion of Friendly Fire, Cover or Concealment (from Underbrush), they are free to attack from 8" range without restriction.

I still think that Action is overloaded as it allows you to do beater damage from range on stat 6(+) without caring about anything besides LoS while still stacking one of the strongest Conditions in the game up to a +5 level if you focus-fire + Aeslins blasts can splash it to possible other models as well. Every single time you hit makes it easier to hit the subsequent attack and it does not even require a Trigger.

Aeslins Injured can be stopped if you use a stone and block all the damage, but once again I don't think the Injured should just be on there automatically.

 

Both Titania's and Aeslins Attack bring back a problematic highlight from M2E, which was that ranged attacks with a gun symbol are far inferior to those that don't have a gun symbol. Concealing is supposed to even out that field, but Titania straight-up ignores all Concealment and they both ignore Concealment from Underbrush markers.

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, whodares said:

The situation was something like this: my right side was a wall. the left side had a Blocking crate stopping pushes. In a diagonal was the Autumn Knight. Next to the crate, close to the Autumn Knight was an Undergrowth marker. After moving a second marker, they were close to eachother. Chompy being placed meant his base was touching both markers at thesame time, leaving me no room to push out with Reflexes. 3" because we played push through severe terrain wrong, was not enough to get out of range because I could only go straight though the Undergrowth markers. All the rest had me blocked. Right side was the wall, left side was the crate and straight ahead was the Autumn Knight, which meant I was still within the Undergrowth next to him. If I had a 30mm base, I could have squeezed through, but Chompy's (and Teddy's) 50mm base made that impossible. Once the initial place was done, there was no way of getting out.

If I could have activated my Stitched Together, I might have had a chance of dealing significant damage to Aeslin and potentially kill her. Unfortunately at the end of Turn 2, Aeslin was only Slow and had taken no damage whatsoever.

 

Due to the placements of the markers, terrain and Autumn Knight, I did not have a charge path available to get Chompy onto the backline. The only time I would have had that path, Chompy would be engaged by the Autumn Knight. Unfortunately their Killjoy did have a charge lane available on Chompy, which meant he was nearly certain to die.

 

The problem I have with Titania is that this situation is rather easy to create. Since both Titania and Aeslin have no notion of Friendly Fire, Cover or Concealment (from Underbrush), they are free to attack from 8" range without restriction.

I still think that Action is overloaded as it allows you to do beater damage from range on stat 6(+) without caring about anything besides LoS while still stacking one of the strongest Conditions in the game up to a +5 level if you focus-fire + Aeslins blasts can splash it to possible other models as well. Every single time you hit makes it easier to hit the subsequent attack and it does not even require a Trigger.

Aeslins Injured can be stopped if you use a stone and block all the damage, but once again I don't think the Injured should just be on there automatically.

 

Both Titania's and Aeslins Attack bring back a problematic highlight from M2E, which was that ranged attacks with a gun symbol are far inferior to those that don't have a gun symbol. Concealing is supposed to even out that field, but Titania straight-up ignores all Concealment and they both ignore Concealment from Underbrush markers.

 is purely a down side. It always has been. putting it on an action will only make that action worse. Actions with out it need to consider that extra power when you balance the action.

I would agree an 8" attack doing 2/4/5 + Injured is a very powerful attack. Its certainly one of the more powerful attacks in the game. Add in the chance to get positive flips and extra damage on a trigger, and you need to plan around that. (I agree that I dislike the cardhere meaning there is almost no reason to use her attack) . There have been plenty of debates over the power of long ranged actions, and even some with people going "if they don't ignore the downsides, then there is no point in the models". (I don't agree with that).

Neverborn Masters seem to be pretty good at having long ranged attacks without using . Titanias is probably the most powerful of them (Its hard to judge Pandoras as it depends on her target), but Zoraidas isn't too far behind (Shorter range, lower top end but the trigger is for someone else to attack rather than extra damage). It also seems to be the main Action of Titania, which I'm not so sure it is for any of  the other ones.

There were plenty of people complaining about Decay on Lady Justice, saying it is a pointless action and not worth her having it. Its worth remembering that the action exists in several places.  There were also more complaints during the public beta about Dreamer being too powerful than about Titania being too powerful.  That doesn't mean you're wrong, but you are spreading a different message to other people.

 

I would have avoided getting close to a section of the board that would trap me permanently in underbush markers. Now it may be that the nature of the board layout makes this a hard thing to do,  but that's not going to be true on all boards. Hire

Lots of people complain about minimum 2 damage as being too low.  I can imagine that It wasn't great against Teddy and its armour until you started being able to cheat the damage flips (which the injured will help a lot, so perhaps its worth using your good cards to make it an uncheatable damage flip. Sure, Titania can cheat an equivalent card to make it cheatable, but then she is using up a lot of resources. (and less likely to be getting her trigger)

Assist, or condition removal are  very important when Injured is around. Its a little harder to get assist to work, when you also have the chance they are going to move you. But at least if there is a good spot to move you to, you can prepare for that.

It seems like Titania created a trap for you, and you fell for it. If you were to play the same game again, I would expect you to not move Chompy to within 3" of a marker until at least one of those big hitters has activated. (if at all). Titania can probably still get you in a marker, but it takes more and more AP, making it less and less effective. (And the later in the turn she goes, the les she can get out of that Injured).

 

[dannydb]

I think as said you went in to this unprepared. I think bring a couple of unenpeaded models with butterfly jump and titania struggles (Emmesery for example) 

 

A big part of m3e is counter play in this edition. You can't just show up and do your own thing, especially as it sounds like you don't know what your own thing is.

 

A big part of dreamers power comes fom his deck improvement thing and 4-5 models taking weaks out of your deck realy shines turns 3-5. 

 

It does mean you might have to play more defensively turn 1-2 though. Don't go running your models in to your opponents crew Willy nilly. It sounds a lot like you played right in to your opponents crew in terms of what they wanted to achieve. Instead spend a turn or two buildings up focus and making your deck better while seeing where the terrain is going then strike.

 

Also unimpeded models and incorporial is great Vs Titania. In fact I'd recommend the Emmesery is most neverborn crews

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, whodares said:

The situation was something like this: my right side was a wall. the left side had a Blocking crate stopping pushes.

How tall were the crate and the wall? Because it might be easy to miss, but Butterfly Jump isn't a push, it's a move. Still effected by Severe terrain, but neither needs to be in a straight line, nor stop when contacting Blocking (but Climable) terrain.

The distinction is important.