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Deathinabox

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  1. Hounds may be a good pick if you don't expect your opponent to be dropping corpses. Hoffman, Tara, and Pandora can deny corpses pretty easily
  2. Oh and on the actual topic, Leveti us is great into Arcanists due to how common reduction abilities are in that faction. He's not good into Ressers did to their high wound counts, hard to wound, healing, and easy access to lantern of souls and execute
  3. I think his point was that we have less easy access to it, not that it doesn't exist. Ressurs have bone piles and nurses. Thunders have tanuki. Arcanists have their effigy. Bayou have wrastlers, neverborn have bultungin and guild have the steward. All of those are more efficient than anything we have in outcasts and are widely available for any crew to use without losing much efficiency.
  4. Hey is there a pull my finger for M3E? I know that was super helpful in second edition but I haven't been able to find one for third?
  5. I think a comparision to a 3pt scheme runner is not the greatest to make. That model is fragile because it should be avoiding contact with the enemy. I'd say a better comparison would be the depleted. They have a similar stat line (-1 def), same health, HtW, HtK, Constriction. and a damaging pulse on death. They have the exact same role (cheap disruption piece) Looking at both of them, I would probably say the abom is better, but not by a lot. Depleted can also be summoned off enemy kills, but are easier to summon. Is 3pts too little for an abom… maybe? But I don't think it's vastly off the mark.
  6. Sorry, if I was coming across as trolly. I'll try to explain what I am saying more concisely. The point that I was trying to make was that your point 1, while technically true, is irrelevant. I believe you could replace Levi and Hamelin in that sentence with any two master's names and it would still be true. Therefore, I don't see why it has any bearing on the discussion. I believe point 2 is the relevant one that they play differently and I don't think anything about my suggested changes would alter that. I obviously don't have any data to back that up as they're not 3pt and insignificant and I don't believe that was ever tried in the beta, but I think it's worth looking at.
  7. As I showed earlier, if you want to spend time on it, you can find quite a few mechanical similarities between basically any masters in the game. It's not about how much is similar mechanically, it's about how the models play and feel on the board. These guys are actually a great example of how models can be mechanically similar, but function and feel very different. You're correct that they are mechanically similar in all the ways you mentioned. However, Waifs are mobile spawn points. They bring Levi to them wherever they are and with plenty of wounds left to spend on killing stuff. They are comparatively quite fragile so it's better to hide them so even though they have a similar attack to the Stolen, they are rarely ever using it. The Waifs really build off of Levi's highly aggressive playstyle by functioning as mobile reset points by putting him in a good position to pop out and continue the murder spree. Stolen on the other hand, exemplify their crew's theme. They are support pieces that help your models. They have a limited range on their save Hamelin aura so they want to stay close to him and the action. You also gain benefits when they die. Hamelin does not gain any real benefits when he is ressed by a Stolen. Then, late game, the Stolen are able to put out a fair amount of damage with their Vomiting Diseases. This mirrors the crew which gets stronger as the game goes on. So while individual mechanics on the models are the same, they play and feel so different those similar mechanics don't really matter. So it looks like you are concerned about people spamming them at three points. Do you really think that would be a problem? The problem is with how many hoops you already have to jump through to get the summon in the first place. You have to kill an enemy model with a from one of the three models that has the trigger. You have to hit the tome trigger (the crews most coveted suit) and forego the spike damage from necrotic decay and the enemy can't have any cheesy ways of avoiding death (Demise heals or replaces) If you do all that you get a 4ss minion who is slow in base contact with the target. This already seems like a lot of work for what I'm getting out of it. Now if you add on that this model is often a free kill in Reckoning or a marker flip in Turf War and will be giving my opponent a pass token regardless, it's silly to the point where it almost might as well not exist on his card in the first place. To flip this example into something a little closer to home for you. Hamelin has the ability to cancel triggers by removing a blight token from a model in range. Pretty decent ability. Easy cost to pay with a good pay off for doing so. You're not always going to want to go for it, but it's an interesting tactical decision. Now imagine that the rule was that the enemy model had to have at least 4 blight on it, it had to be in base contact with Hamelin, and you had to remove a blight token. It's still a good ability to have but the cost is pretty high for the pay off. You're typically not gonna try to force it, but you'll likely do it if it comes up. Now imagine, that the ability also said, that after you discard the blight, you flip a card and on a crow or mask, the enemy model clears off all their blight. Well now, not only are you jumping through tons of hoops to get this ability off, but then it also has a decent chance of hurting you as well. This ability changed from cool, to fine, to just feeling bad. This is kinda how I feel about abom summons. I want to like the ability because I see how cool it could be, but most of the time it just feels bad to not be able to realistically use.
  8. Frankly, even making them insignificant and mindless without changing their cost would be an improvement. It wouldn't make them hired that much often but it would at least fix the summon.
  9. As you say, Aboms are not spammable at all. So all way to make them see more table time would technically be making them "more spammable." My suggestions would likely change the rate of summoning from 1 every other game to once a game. It could possibly also change the rate of hiring from 0 to 1 (There are reasons you may hire 1, for lower TN on Weird Devices to being a wound battery for Levi) You may even see 3 every now and then if someone wanted to be cheeky and get some extra focus on a Deso Engine at the cost of pass tokens for their opponent. I highly doubt people will be spending half their stones running a full set of 8. Rats get better the more of them you have, Aboms do not. They have auras that don't stack and have no pack mentality or similar ability. Suffice to say, Aboms are not spammable and nothing about this adjustment will make that so. It may, however, allow one of Levi's icon models to actually be hired occasionally and make his summon not feel like a trap.
  10. I definitely agree that Levi’s crew would need some extra work other than this tweak. I alluded to it earlier but I think Levi’s crew is mechanically fine (other than aboms) but needs some points adjustments. Ashes and Dust +1, Alyce +1, Deso Engine -1, Aboms -1. This is what I suggest to help fix the Amalgam crew.
  11. This is an argument that always irks me because you can do it for most things. Here’s how Leveticus and Collette are basically the same master Both have multiple insignificant totems (Waifs and Doves) Which they can teleport to (Showstopper and Pariah’s Soul) They both have models that are made from multiple other models (Desolation Engine and Duet) Which turn into other models when killed (Abominations and Mannequins) They both summon chaff models on a tome trigger (Abominations and Doves) They are both capable of impressive spike damage (Death Touch and Sword Trick) However, if you asked somebody if Levi and Collette were basically the same master, they would say “of course not.” That’s because, despite the similarities of individual mechanics, those two masters play very differently. Going back to Levi and Hamelin, Amalgam is a tough, kill-based crew that has heavy attrition elements. Plague, on the other hand, is a slow-burn crew (builds up power over time like Dreamer and Yan Lo) that has some good control elements and swarming. Levi being able to occasionally summon does not make Amalgam a swarm crew. Rats and abominations do not functionally compare, even if aboms were insignificant and mindless. Rats are summoned by a variety of ways (Triggers on a number of models, Benny, Voracious Rats, Inevitable Fate) and you’ll always see some hitting the board. Aboms are summoned by a single trigger on three models in the crew and requires you to kill the model without using the built-in necrotic decay. With Levi, I typically have the option of the summon come up maybe once a game. Sometimes, it’s me looking at dropping in the resources and sometimes it’s just something that happens. But if I’m not doing it in Reckoning or Turf War, that’s half the games as well as not wanting to do it so much with a couple other schemes. Basically, it feels bad to have that once-in-a-game opportunity come up and then, more often than not, decide it’s smarter to just ignore the trigger. People really wanted Levi to be able to summon and technically got it, but if it’s something that happening once every two or three games, does it really feel like he can still summon? At least with McMourning’s super situational summon, if it comes up, it’s something you pretty much always want to do.
  12. So, I have a few problems with abominations in my Amalgam crew. They don’t seem to be good hires, (They’re cheap, melee-oriented models who are horribly slow and fragile) You lose 2 stones if you hire three to turn into a Desolation Engine as well as giving up some pass tokens. As summons they’re tricky as well. 3 models can summon them (Levi, Ashes and Dust, Deso Engine), all three summon them with a non-baked trigger on a melee attack requiring a kill. Honestly, all this would be fine if it wasn’t for the last fact: they’re significant. This means your opponent is able to kill them to flip turf war markers and score reckoning points. As well as being easy targets for things like dig or detonate charges. They come in slow and unable to interact so the turn they come in they’re unlikely to be contributing anything in way of points. On the flip side, they often provide your opponent with easy ways of getting points, not to mention the pass token that the opponent gains. I’ve actually found myself forgoing or wishing I had foregone the summon, even when all the pieces were effectively given to me. (Score a hit with a tome that I won’t need necrotic decay to ensure the kill). With how difficult this summon is to get off in the first place, I feel like it should be something I should just do if it comes up and often be willing to put resources into making happen. I’m also a resser player and zombify is a pretty common trigger. I never find myself wondering if I should summon the mindless zombie because it’s insignificant and mindless. Aboms feel like they should be the amalgam version of a mindless zombie. Basically, my suggestion is this: Make Aboms 3 points, mindless, and insignificant. (Also, Deso Engines should be 9 points. They contribute less than Ashes and Dust, who should be 10) This would make Aboms a slightly more attractive hire and more importantly, would make them useful summons as well. What do you guys think? Am I underrating Aboms? Are they fine as is? Have you had any useful interactions with Abombs (either hired or summoned)?
  13. My thoughts on Yan Lo purchases. I think you need Manos, Chiaki, and komainu. You do not need Toshiro and the Ashigaru as they don't bring a lot to the crew and play somewhat counter to it's strength
  14. Sorry, but it's models that are enemies of Greed. It doesn't count Greed's allies. Friends/enemies is always calculated based on the model taking the action, not the target.
  15. Whisper is also cool on Seamus because CCK can have Seamus claim his kill and draw a card
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