Lucky Effigy's Condition and what is a flip

[Math Mathonwy]

Lucky Effigy can give this Condition:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a  in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

If the model with a Condition has suffered four damage and then has  for a duel and flips 12, 11, and 2 does the model heal two as it flipped two Rams cards even though it is forced to choose the two of crows?

Also, does the model heal when flipping a Red Joker?

I'm guessing that the answer to both questions is yes, it heals in both cases. But there was some discussion about this one in a game today.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I think that's what you were going for.

No I mean Red Joker. But I was talking about it preventing the other person cheating. 

Page 19 SRM

When a Joker appears in a flip it will stop certain players from being able to
cheat. If a player flips a Black Joker from her Fate Deck, she is not allowed to
Cheat Fate. If a player’s opponent flips a Red Joker from her Fate Deck, the
player is not able to Cheat Fate.

 

We treat a red Joker flipped differently to a red Joker Cheated into the duel. 

[Myyrä]

10 minutes ago, lame0 said:

I think this topic being as long as it is really represents that an faq and clarification is needed. Also @Myyrä I do find it concerning that you totally disagree with most people here and you are not willing to at the very least concede it is not clear.

By my count it's 5 or 6 people disagreeing with me and not even agreeing with each other and 3 other people agreeing with me. I can agree that there seem to be a quite a few people who are confused, which doesn't necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the rules.

10 minutes ago, lame0 said:

If you want im sure many could take the stance of your totally wrong according to RAW since many places the term flips/flipped/flip are used with seemingly different meaning. Just replace the word flip with the game term definition and you start to see it break down...

Go ahead then. Do it.

10 minutes ago, lame0 said:

I think that both Molly and the guild lawyer have two poorly written actions and due to the way flip is used throughout the book which needs errata or at the very least faq.

I think all the actions are just fine.

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, lame0 said:

I think this topic being as long as it is really represents that an faq and clarification is needed. Also @Myyrä I do find it concerning that you totally disagree with most people here and you are not willing to at the very least concede it is not clear. If you want im sure many could take the stance of your totally wrong according to RAW since many places the term flips/flipped/flip are used with seemingly different meaning. Just replace the word flip with the game term definition and you start to see it break down...

I think that both Molly and the guild lawyer have two poorly written actions and due to the way flip is used throughout the book which needs errata or at the very least faq.

Whilst I think you might be right that the Lucky Effigy could do with an FAQ, I honestly don't think that any other part of the rules is unclear. The length is really just due to the repeating of the same points over and over again slightly rephrased

You don't deteremine the damage of an attack until you complete the card flipping and choose an active card. So trying to say Molly and the Lawyer are unclear is looking to misunderstand something. 

The act of a FLIP may involve flipping more than 1 card, but all those cards are 1 flip. As such you can't replace every instance of the word flip with the game term definition (because the game term definition contains the word flip).

[lame0]

29 minutes ago, Adran said:

Whilst I think you might be right that the Lucky Effigy could do with an FAQ, I honestly don't think that any other part of the rules is unclear. The length is really just due to the repeating of the same points over and over again slightly rephrased

You don't deteremine the damage of an attack until you complete the card flipping and choose an active card. So trying to say Molly and the Lawyer are unclear is looking to misunderstand something. 

The act of a FLIP may involve flipping more than 1 card, but all those cards are 1 flip. As such you can't replace every instance of the word flip with the game term definition (because the game term definition contains the word flip).

I will agree that Molly and the lawyer lean much more towards not being an issue but I think since their action does just ask about "flipped" cards it just feels like leaving a wound unbandaged. Anyways I think there has been a ton of repetition but I don't think this discussion is getting anywhere -_-.

[Squirrelich]

Ironsides upgrade Iron Determination: Sleep Now In The Fire - "Enemy models which flip the Red Joker against this model on a damage flip discard the Red Joker with no effect and then flip a new card from their deck which takes it's place."

So if I flip a 13, RJ on a  damage flip against this model and I choose the RJ for my active card, do I flip one new card that is now my new damage? Or should I just choose the 13 instead because it is guaranteed severe and I do not have to reflip the RJ because it was never flipped?

Or is this an example of an ability which does interact with the cards before the active card is chosen? In which cause I would have a 13, and a randomly flipped card from the top of my deck that I choose an active card from following the normal rules?

 

 

[Paddywhack]

4 hours ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Or is this an example of an ability which does interact with the cards before the active card is chosen? In which cause I would have a 13, and a randomly flipped card from the top of my deck that I choose an active card from following the normal rules?

That would be my read of the rule. You discard the RJ and flip another card. Then choose as normal. 

[Angelshard]

Since it was apparently lost in the discussion I'll try again.

Page 17 of the small rulebook fate modifiers, under bonus flips.

"Force a model to flip additional cards and then provide the model with a choice of which card to use."

There is a very clear break there between flipping the card and choosing the active card. 

If you wanted to have it in one step it should have said.

"Forces a model to choose the flip from additional cards."

This way the flip would be singular, leaving no room for interpretation. 

However the then in the sentence cuts the process into two steps, step one the flip and step two, choosing the active card.

[trikk]

On 1.10.2017 at 8:34 PM, solkan said:

That's an argument that Objection contains an error in wording.

As well as Sandeeps paralyze-attack and Molly's Revelation

[emiba]

I'm going to side with @Myyrä on this one for one reason; "model flips a  in a duel". In no other instance does cards not chosen count as being "in the duel". You wouldn't go after negative flips to get extra  for critical strike... 

I think the reason the more common (and clear) "for each  in the final duel total" isn't used is because that's not what's intended, as that would allow you to spend a soul stone to add a  to the "final duel total" and heal an extra point. By saying "when it's flipped" it means that only suits that come out of your deck count.

By this reasoning, cheating a  into the duel would also cause a heal whereas, the way I see it, with the other interpretation of the word "flipped", a cheated  would not.

I do think that there's room for improvement on wording though, even if I'm not sure how to improve it without being super wordy.

[Clement]

53 minutes ago, emiba said:

I'm going to side with @Myyrä on this one for one reason; "model flips a  in a duel". In no other instance does cards not chosen count as being "in the duel". You wouldn't go after negative flips to get extra  for critical strike... 

I think the reason the more common (and clear) "for each  in the final duel total" isn't used is because that's not what's intended, as that would allow you to spend a soul stone to add a  to the "final duel total" and heal an extra point. By saying "when it's flipped" it means that only suits that come out of your deck count.

By this reasoning, cheating a  into the duel would also cause a heal whereas, the way I see it, with the other interpretation of the word "flipped", a cheated  would not.

I do think that there's room for improvement on wording though, even if I'm not sure how to improve it without being super wordy.

Specifying "in a dual" is just an easy way to omit cards "flipping" for randomization, Wong's lightning jump, and other stuff that just isn't a duel.

 

I'd say I'm annoyed that this didn't make the faq given the weirdly fundamental nature of the question; but then I remembered that it's mostly gremlins related and it all made sense.   Maybe if we rephrased this question to have some weird implication of "Leave it to Luck"?   That would get the Neverborn players involved and their questions get *answered*.

Tannen has leave it to luck running, and is at a  to damage.  He "flips" an actual 4  and 5 .   Which card does he have to take?

[emiba]

21 minutes ago, Clement said:

Tannen has leave it to luck running, and is at a  to damage.  He "flips" an actual 4  and 5 .   Which card does he have to take?

 

Quote

Penalty modifiers () force the model to flip additional cards and then use the
lowest value card flipped.

-Rules Manual p.17

4 is the lowest value card, then Tannen treats it as 2 higher. I'd have to say he has to choose the 4 of .

[Ludvig]

@Clement

I don't think it's because it has to do with gremlins it was left out but rather the weirdly fundamental nature of the question as you put it. No matter which way it was ruled people would take it to have implications for a ton of abilities mentioning flip. It's possible a few models will get errata to clarify they work on any card flipped without creating really weird interactions with other abilities that only work on final "flip total". 

[Finalscene]

What happens if we cheat in a card? Does that mean we didn't flip any cards since the card which resolves would be our cheated card? 

[Adran]

On 18/11/2017 at 12:47 AM, Finalscene said:

What happens if we cheat in a card? Does that mean we didn't flip any cards since the card which resolves would be our cheated card? 

That doesn't make any difference at all here. Cheating cards is something that happens after you have flipped cards.  So if you flip a ram, you will heal, even if you later cheat a tome in instead. 

The  question is if I flip with positive or negative flips, do I get to consider all the suits of those cards I took from the deck, or only those from the card I used to be the result of the flip. 

 

 

[Rillan]

On 01/10/2017 at 7:57 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Lucky Effigy can give this Condition:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a  in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

If the model with a Condition has suffered four damage and then has  for a duel and flips 12, 11, and 2 does the model heal two as it flipped two Rams cards even though it is forced to choose the two of crows?

Also, does the model heal when flipping a Red Joker?

I'm guessing that the answer to both questions is yes, it heals in both cases. But there was some discussion about this one in a game today.

U heal, but dont forget u heal only from duel flip, not from damage flips.  If  or u have  on hit and u flip 3 RAMS u heal 3 damage.

[Angelshard]

@Rillan even though I agree with you I'm afraid you need a really good argument, there's a reason this discussion has gone on for four pages with no agreement. 

[Rillan]

7 hours ago, Angelshard said:

@Rillan even though I agree with you I'm afraid you need a really good argument, there's a reason this discussion has gone on for four pages with no agreement. 

There is nothing to argue about. It is clearly written WHENEVER U FLIP , and based on Fate Modifiers and Card Flip example from Duels sections u heal for each rams u flip. Nothing in the wording pushes u to choose those cards as active in the final duel total. Its pretty damn clear as black letters on white paper ....

[Clement]

1 hour ago, Rillan said:

There is nothing to argue about. It is clearly written WHENEVER U FLIP , and based on Fate Modifiers and Card Flip example from Duels sections u heal for each rams u flip. Nothing in the wording pushes u to choose those cards as active in the final duel total. Its pretty damn clear as black letters on white paper ....

Also based on black letters on white paper (pg 16 actually specifically) a "flip" is referred to as turning over one or more cards. The ultimate problem is that the sentence "A flip consist of flipping multiple cards" is fine in this game, and we're stuck in a deadlock as to which specific version of the word "Flip" the ability is referencing (per card like you say, or per set).

I agree, it's kind of silly.

[Rillan]

7 hours ago, Clement said:

Also based on black letters on white paper (pg 16 actually specifically) a "flip" is referred to as turning over one or more cards. The ultimate problem is that the sentence "A flip consist of flipping multiple cards" is fine in this game, and we're stuck in a deadlock as to which specific version of the word "Flip" the ability is referencing (per card like you say, or per set).

I agree, it's kind of silly.

Lets make it clear.

Judge stands near building and  gets Hard Cover against your SH attack but u still shoot. How many cards u have to flip ? (Don't answer)
After u calculate flips u decide that u make your SH Attack Action with . Lets flip cards, choose active to find out results and go to Cheating step. Here it starts  u flip 2 cards and before choosing the lowest declare - > 

On 08/03/2018 at 7:44 AM, Rillan said:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a  in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

Why ? Because u just flipped 2 cards. Nothing says u have to choose them as active in your final duel total. Clearly as written just u flip  u can heal.

 

Same way Red Joker is flipped or played. WHEN u flip a Red Joker u must immideatly choose a suit. Here u immediately heal.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Rillan said:

Lets make it clear.

Judge stands near building and  gets Hard Cover against your SH attack but u still shoot. How many cards u have to flip ? (Don't answer)
After u calculate flips u decide that u make your SH Attack Action with . Lets flip cards, choose active to find out results and go to Cheating step. Here it starts  u flip 2 cards and before choosing the lowest declare - > 

Why ? Because u just flipped 2 cards. Nothing says u have to choose them as active in your final duel total. Clearly as written just u flip  u can heal.

 

Same way Red Joker is flipped or played. WHEN u flip a Red Joker u must immideatly choose a suit. Here u immediately heal.

And if you read through the thread you'll see that everything you're saying has already been said.

[Rillan]

28 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

And if you read through the thread you'll see that everything you're saying has already been said.

I didn't read it whole. Sorry if i copied someone.

[Adran]

11 hours ago, Rillan said:

Lets make it clear.

Judge stands near building and  gets Hard Cover against your SH attack but u still shoot. How many cards u have to flip ? (Don't answer)
After u calculate flips u decide that u make your SH Attack Action with . Lets flip cards, choose active to find out results and go to Cheating step. Here it starts  u flip 2 cards and before choosing the lowest declare - > 

Why ? Because u just flipped 2 cards. Nothing says u have to choose them as active in your final duel total. Clearly as written just u flip  u can heal.

 

Same way Red Joker is flipped or played. WHEN u flip a Red Joker u must immideatly choose a suit. Here u immediately heal.

You missed the problem. You might have turned over 2 cards but you have performed 1 flip.

If you think the answer to a 4 page thread is obvious, it might be worth reading all the comments to see why it has gone so far. Fresh insight is always welcome.

[Rillan]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

You missed the problem. You might have turned over 2 cards but you have performed 1 flip.

If you think the answer to a 4 page thread is obvious, it might be worth reading all the comments to see why it has gone so far. Fresh insight is always welcome.

And what is wrong with Flip rule ? My opponent starts duel so we  make flip where mine consists from  2-3 cards. Then i say Whenever i flip , and look i have 2 of them from those 3 cards i heal 1 damage for each  flipped so i heal 2 damage.

Am i missing something ?

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, Rillan said:

And what is wrong with Flip rule ? My opponent starts duel so we  make flip where mine consists from  2-3 cards. Then i say Whenever i flip , and look i have 2 of them from those 3 cards i heal 1 damage for each  flipped so i heal 2 damage.

Am i missing something ?

Flip could mean each card flipped or the card which ended up being the flip since flip is also the term used for the entire process of turning 1+ card(s) over and chosing one to count as your flipped one.

[Rillan]

10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Flip could mean each card flipped or the card which ended up being the flip since flip is also the term used for the entire process of turning 1+ card(s) over and chosing one to count as your flipped one.

Active card is chosen after u made a flip. Based on wording where key word is WHENEVER i don't see anything that prevents u from counting all cards u flipped. Also there is nothing said about FINAL DUEL or ACTIVE CARD. 

There is difference between WHENEVER u flip and AFTER u flip and chose an active card.

 

Best i can do is lets take it by steps.

Step 1 - u measure range to hit.

Step 2 - U declare an action.

Step 3 - We choose to use Soulstones

Step 4 - We flip cards

Step 5 - We choose an active card

Step 6 - We choose to cheat fate

Step 7 - We count duel results

Step 8 - We declare triggers

Step 9 - END.

Step 4 is before Step 5. So >Whenever i flip< goes before i choose an active card or cheat fate...