lame0

I would like to be on the waiting list. I'm interested in coming from NYC.

You do understand that a model doesn’t physically fit in a place when there is no space at all for it to be placed. Think about it. Not having a location to place doesn’t mean it’s invalid just that it doesn’t have anywhere on the table to place. The rule is super specific. The question the rule asks is if it fits on the table using the rules notated on its card. If not put it in deployment. There is no condition in the action that notes it does not return based on the unbury rule. It’s one thing or the other there is no third option. It’s an x or y question. If it fits on the specific location notated on its card refer to its own rule otherwise place it in the deployment zone. The unbury rule doesn’t say it cares why It can’t physically be placed and not having any place at all is an acceptable reason not to be able to physically fit. Can I physically stand if there is nowhere to stand? No. Same goes for if I can physically place a model and there in nowhere to place. I see no difference between a bayou that is surrounded by enemies or not having a bayou. In both cases zipp doesn’t fit on the table because it has no legal specific location to fit on the table using his own rule. Then you have to refer back to the unbury rule because there is nowhere for him to fit. Additionally It doesn’t say on zipps card a bayou needs to be in play for him to come back. Just that if he does come back in base contact with a bayou you have to sacrifice it.

I mean nowhere does it say you need a bayou gremlin. It just tells you where you can unbury. Rules of games are super literal. It’s like killjoy. If one of your models dies and he can’t be placed in base contact because there isn’t room then he can be unburied in deployment because the unbury effect attempts to unbury then he can’t physically be placed so then you refer back to the unbury rule. Another example is the sion of black blood and it also allows you to attempt an unbury and similarly it puts the model in base contact.....so if it can’t fit then it goes to deployment. All of the effects are worded the same way in that is says the model is placed in base contact with something and that’s all that they use to define where the models can be placed. In each of the circumstances if you can not fit when the unbury action or ability resolves then you refer back to the main unbury rule. For reference: sion of blood action “select a buried friendly henchman or minion and unbury it in base contact.” Kill joy blood sacrifice “when a model in this crew is killed or sacrificed, this model may unbury in base contact with the model before it is removed.” Zipp dread pirate zipp “at the end of the turn, unbury this model in base contact with a friendly bayou gremlin.” Like I said above they all tell you the location (in base contact with a specific model.), they all attempt to unbury, and they all fall back onto the unbury rule if they can’t unbury into the stated location on the battlefield. It would be one thing if zipp was the only model that its location for being unburied was in base contact with something but since many models unbury in the same way and all use the same rules it gets much clearer that the rule is defining the models specified unbury location. This rule is black or white @Ludvigsince you can either fit or not fit on the battlefield in the specified location when you unbury then one or the other thing happens. But regardless you unbury. I will say thematically I always thought it was a trick and he gave all the bayous a teleporter to swap places with him at his ship. This would just reflect him jumping off his ship upset that his 800 point plan failed and that he has to huff it to get back into the action.

So I tried searching (I tend to be bad at that) and I wanted to know what happens to zipp if all the bayous die before the end of the turn. Does he place in the deployment zone? I was listening to the arcane reservoir podcast and it seemed unclear at the ITC of all things. (I think it was ruled that he does unbury in deployment based on what was shared on the podcast.) the rule is as follows: Unbury Some effects will unbury a model. This is usually described in the Action that initially buried the model. When this happens, place the model back into play as described in the unburying effect. When unburying models, if the models do not physically fit in the specified location, they are placed in their controller’s Deployment Zone by the player who controls them. If models from multiple players were all unburied at the same time, the First Player (see pg. 31) places her models first. So if there are no bayous at end of turn The model doesn’t physically fit in the location because the location specified on the ability is smaller than his base (no location next to a bayou gremlin to unbury). This portion of the ability goes off at end of turn and is an attempt to unbury a model. Additionally the dread pirate zipps effect does not make you select a bayou gremlin as a target or model it just defines the specific locations where you can unbury “unbury this model in base contact with a friendly bayou gremlin.” The sacrifice effect is not a cost of unburying just a side effect of what happens if he unburied in base contact of a bayou gremlin. all this is different that Levi since the ability that attempts to unbury Levi requires the waif to be on the battlefield at end of turn to go off which differs from zipps unbury which is tied to an action taken earlier in the turn. So the test I’m seeing from this combination of rules is. If there is at least 30mm of space to summon Zipp in base contact of a bayou gremlin summon Zipp somewhere in that specified location. If there is not 30mm of space in base contact of a bayou gremlin summon Zipp into your deployment zone since it does not physically fit in the specified location stated on the actions effect. The only thing the rules and actions check for is if he fits where the unbury effect states. So I think it’s pretty clear he does unbury in the deployment zone given the above reasoning. What do you guys think?

I mean looks interesting. I’ve never been able to get show off to work for me but if it works that’s cool. With Somer I’d probs want a lightning bug cus it’s better at healing t1 and gives a little more punch to your list. Also if you really want to spam take a taxidermist. Without changing the core of the list: Declared Faction: Gremlins Crew Name: 50ss Leader: Somer Teeth Jones - Cache:(4) Family Tree 2ss Do Over 1ss Encouragement 2ss (you could put show off back if it works) Skeeter 2ss Skeeter 2ss Gremlin Taxidermist 7ss Dirty Cheater 1ss The Sow 8ss Slop Hauler 5ss Lightning Bug 5ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Banjonista 5ss i really like getting use out of the models you bring to make more models t1. Somer makes 3x bayous. Make one encouragement punch Somer to move somer around and have the bayou take one damage. Focus punch with the skeeters to kill the 3 damaged bayou with a skeeter and use it’s trigger And make a skeeter, draw 3 cards and get a corpse marker. Use the taxidermist and make a stuffed pig and that’s it. That leaves you with 15 models to control the board often the taxidermist makes 1-2 more after that and the sow can potentially make a few piggy so your numbers probably won’t dwindle to much. The stuffed piggys also let you play your blow up game so that’s nice :D. whatever you do have fun with it!!

He’s a cool model but just suffers from other models doing specific things better while he covers more bases. Menacing croak is cool but trixie has her gremlin lure with+10 inch range. Fingers is better at stopping schemes because he prevents all types of interacts with chatty. He really is special when the enemy needs scheme markers but you can’t be sure with gg18 so he just kinda feels suboptimal. It doesn’t help that he usually needs 1-2 upgrades so being 10+ ss is pretty rough on the crew.

Whoops........................... Its a shame that I dont like any of the new models now. I guess zipp can make one but its not great.

Been a while since I’ve posted here but I was wondering what people thought of a core of: Declared Faction: Gremlins Crew Name: Gremlins # 10 50ss Leader: Zipp - Cache:(4) Rambling Diatribe 1ss Malifaux Child 2 ss Trixiebelle 8ss Do Over 1ss Cooper Jones 8ss Total 21ss I think it’s kind of interesting and probably the only set up I might consider running cooper jones. Basically it fits in because on T1 Zipp and the malifaux child can target a low wp friendly model with Rambling diatribe and can make two scrap. (Zipp can still do w.e he wants with his ap). Not only does this make the two scrap markers you need but it also lets you filter your hand quite well. Trixie gives cooper a ton of poison (should be easy enough to get 4+). Then cooper should be able to summon two gamin without issue. Which leaves you with 2 extra models by using a bunch of (0) actions 1 ap from the malifaux child and coopers activation. I like the the malifaux child since after turn one it can always choose to filter cards + make scrap to make a replacement gamin or use grab a rope to move the rest of the crew around. Overal I like the core since really it doesn’t require me to take subpar models while giving zipp access to summoning which was usually something he couldn’t pull off. Even cooper shines once you have two extra minions and is a solid resilient model (usually armor 2) with ok damage. A full list I was thinking about was: Declared Faction: Gremlins Crew Name: Gremlins # 10 50ss Leader: Zipp - Cache:(4) The Gift Of Gab 1ss Stilts 1ss Rambling Diatribe 1ss Malifaux Child 2ss Trixiebelle 8ss Dirty Cheater 1ss Do Over 1ss Burt Jebsen 8ss Dirty Cheater 1ss Pere Ravage 6ss Cooper Jones 8ss Iron Skeeter 6ss Hovering Airship 0ss Slop Hauler 5ss or a dread pirate zipp list of: Declared Faction: Gremlins Crew Name: Gremlins # 10 50ss Leader: Zipp - Cache:(4) The Gift Of Gab 1ss (maybe swap for dirty cheater) Rambling Diatribe 1ss The Dread Pirate Zipp 1ss Malifaux Child 2ss Trixiebelle 8ss Dirty Cheater 1ss Do Over 1ss Pere Ravage 6ss Cooper Jones 8ss Iron Skeeter 6ss Hovering Airship 1ss Slop Hauler 5ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss With dread pirate depending on the board state of t1 you can diatribe or turn zipp into a bayou so it’s flexible and you can always make the second gamin turn two since your poison will carry over anyway. I do find it funny that brewmaster seems to be pretty bad for cooper since the only real way of making scrap markers consistently is with pork chop and that’s not exactly what he wants in his crew.....woe is brewy. Thats a shame. I was wondering why i didn't ever use the malifaux child with zipp..... No I dont see any master who can use any of the new models -_-......Sad Panda

@trikk it depends he can either get it via osa or by the wastrel passing to him. Both are viable options. It depends the turn you do it and what your trying to accomplish with Hoffman’s activation. Typically osa turn 1 though. i felt the same way about Sam but just like you said I couldn’t justify him since he was so darn squishy (and expensive). now that armor +1 only cost 1ss he’s not bad. If you compare him to a gremlin taxidermist he’s more resilient with a better stat line and the henchman characteristic to stone for damage reduction. Granted they don’t fill the same exact slot but I say it because I use the taxidermist a ton and he is squishier than Sam with armor. Last thing even comparing it with the next best option (Francisco). He is the same defensively unless you take wade in but Sam has the tactical going for him. So the trade off seems pretty even but Sams tactical seems game changing while Francisco is just more consistent.

Not really since I’m conceding that when an upgrade that provides an ability or action is discarded or removed all things related to it are removed. Tbh I don’t even see how removing/ discarding upgrades works since I don’t see where it’s described at all (I play it the way I described above because well it’s the only current sensible solution and that’s the way it’s played). I come from an mtg background so to see things so totally vague almost scares me since 99% of interactions are described and explained on their website. I’ve always been a raw kind of guy and if faq or errata point differently that’s fine but tbh I really don’t see how it applies differently. I mean totally no disrespect but when you guys just say that’s how it works or then how does this other thing work doesn’t help me understand where my logic went wrong especially when your question leads us to a rather “unwritten” part of the rules. I’m always intrigued by this stuff but funny enough it really doesn’t even matter for my strategy and has no relevance for any other master. I’d love to keep the discussion going in a different thread but I think arguing about a super rare thing like this is taking away from my excitement about Sam. Especially since I stated 9/10 times I would want to give Hoffman the +2 armor anyway to keep him and his debuff alive. Giving Hoffman armor +2 and his ability to borrow other models armor just makes him backbreakingly difficult to kill. Sam is quite powerful with one of our masters which is something I could not say ever before. I think the list has incredible synergy since basically everything can shoot or attack vs df and it makes df duels a total nightmare for the opponent. (Hopefully I get to try it out this week).

Cyborg applies armor well after the initial check so....at that point it already has armor +1 so then the other ability adds a second armor. Like I said nowhere on the upgrade does it say you lose armor if x it just say you gain armor if x. So the recheck isn’t to see if you lose armor because of something but to check if you gain more armor. It’s just asking the same question forever but it doesn’t ask.....do you have armor if so lose armor. Like other conditionals in the game it asks you did x happen if so y. Not if x happens then y never happened or disappears. It’s like if an attack trigger that grants an extra attack doesn’t happen do you lose the initial attack? The answer is an obvious no. You check for things that have an effect. for LLC it has an effect anytime the model doesn’t have the armor ability. It’s just like how Nellie and lucious upgrades check if you are winning. Would I tell the nelie player they lose health because the condition to gain health wasn’t met this turn so they lose the benifit they got last turn? No that doesn’t make sense. I’m going off the same reasoning. You don’t retroactively change something because it isn’t happening now instead of when the effect took place unless it is explicitly in the rules of the upgrade or model (like three headed).

Olay maybe I’m not articulating my thoughts. what I mean is the following: the ability does not state in any way that you can lose the armor ability once it’s gained. It says “this model gains the following ability if it does not already have the armor ability” So what I mean is that according to the ability It gains The Armor +1 ability if it doesn’t have it. There is no clause to losing the armor if it gets the armor ability From somewhere else after the fact. So again if it was written like 3 headed and said something along the lines of: this model gains the armor +1 ability when no other source provides it the armor ability. then you would be correct but it instead say this model gains the following ability if it does not already have the armor ability. So my other example was just to reflect if there was a means to remove the armor ability from a model with LLC short term then it would actually be granted armor again since it again fulfill the requirement in the top clause. A perfect example is do over where if a specific circumstance happens then you get to declare an extra action. Again the key is that the intro sentence on this card says that it GAINS an ability if it doesn’t have something not that it can lose the ability in anyway if it gets armor. So what it means to me is the only thing preventing this ability from granting the model 10000000 armor is that the first successful occurrence of the ability stops it from happening again. So for example: The ability goes on the model -> it asks does the model have the armor ability -> it doesn’t -> add armor +1 -> it asks again does the model have the armor ability -> yes because this upgrade applied the armor ability thus satisfying the loop until armor is removed in some way or the game ends. With this infinitely recurring ability it would be granted only one time because it has armor after the first application. If all armor abilities were removed for some reason it would grant the model one armor again because it met the conditional statement. The whole ability is the conditional statement. Armor is just the outcome in some circumstances. So basically anytime you don’t have a cookie get a cookie. From this ability you can only gain a max of one cookie. But if you get an extra cookie you don’t lose the first. If you eat all the cookies or your dick bag friend eats them you get one cookie back because you you always get provided one. That’s the only way the sentence can be read and be constantly rechecked because of how it is worded. Very logical but not intuitive.

Even if I concede rechecking and it does constantly recheck then it’s better.... There is no way of losing the armor nowhere in its clause does it state you can lose the armor ability it just says you can gain it. “this model gains the following ability if it does not already have the armor ability” Its conditional and nowhere does it have a clause to lose armor. So it’s almost better because it can potentially gain more armor if you could remove the armor ability till end of activation or turn or something (generating an extra armor). Nowhere in the clause does it say you can loose armor by having armor. Only that you can gain armor if you don’t have it.

I’m not here arguing that you don’t lose the ability when the card is discarded (ability is tied to the card) what I’m saying is that I don’t constantly recheck the initial clause of the ability because that’s not how it’s stated. If the card said if you gain armor during the game this armor is not applied then fine that would be clear. That clause on lead lined coat is to prevent models that already have armor from being able to purchase the upgrade. This is flipping it on its head and giving it more armor after the fact. It doesn’t need to say when hiring. I gave a perfect example. If you have no cookies then gain one cookie. does that statement anywhere say that you lose the initial cookie if you get more cookies. No it doesn’t. It would have to be much more specific if it wanted that to be the case and it is not stated at all in the language whatsoever. That is the same for armor in this case. Like wise the ability to get armor has a timing: “this model gains the following ability” Nowhere in the card text does it say loses ability based off of this card it can only gain armor based off of its conditional requirement. Once it succeeds there is no condition to lose the armor other than the upgrade being removed. abilities that can lose their utility are quite specific ex: three headed

Where does it say it checks again after it is initially applied. Example if English: If a person doesn’t have a lollipop give that person a lollipop. Based on that sentence where does it inform us if you give them another lollipop the first is taken away. The ability says absolutely nowhere that it checks more than once.

Actually lead lined coat is pretty clear “this model gains the following ability if it does not already have the armor ability” so if you don’t have the armor ability when this is attached then armor is added to the card since you met it’s criteria and it didn’t have armor. There is nothing in its rule that says that if it gains more armor after the fact that it loses its armor ability. Then you make a bunch of models cyborgs with Hoffman (needs a 5). Then you use version update to get patchwork plating on sam or whoever. Additionally if you want to get use out of nimble on the first turn you can simply use version update on the wastrel and then pass nimble to the real target. You can make up to 3 scrap markers turn 1 (You are Only ever going to make 2) but it allows for you to get both nimble and armor up and they could both potentially be on the same model on turn 1. The combination of the wastrel and the emissary allow for the upgrades to go online turn one so that you can get the set up complete in the first turn and them you can focus on fighting and winning on turn 2. in terms of cards it’s not bad at all (2-3) cyborg is 2-3 5+(you should get 1-2 normally) if you want someone besides Hoffman to have armor you need 2 8+ for the two good upgrades. The wastrel needs a 6+ to pass the upgrade but it can easily cycle 1-2 cards looking for the medium cards you need. last thing is that you don’t need to drop all the power loops if your worried about Hoffman you can pick and choose so even dropping 1-2 gives it a 21-25 inch bubble which means for A (0) + a little you get that very strong tactical on most of the board.

So I’ve been mostly looking at my gremlins but I noticed Sam got the exact buff that I thought he needed to work. He is now potentially super great with Hoffman in my eyes. The list would be something like : Declared Faction: Guild Crew Name: 50ss Leader: C. Hoffman - Cache:(3) Pneumatic Upgrades 2ss On Site Assimiliation 2ss Improved Harness 1ss Mechanical Attendant 2ss Samael Hopkins 8ss Lead Lined Coat 1ss A Debt To The Guild 1ss Brutal Emissary 10ss Conflux of Amalgamation 0ss Monster Hunter 6ss Monster Hunter 6ss Brutal Effigy 4ss Wastrel 4ss So basically Hoffman makes Sam a construct and potentially gives him extra upgrades so he gets to Armor +2 & nimble. This makes Sam stupid strong letting him set up and rapid fire with his 3/4/5 12 inch gun and 4/5/6 when he uses a debt to the guild. (the extra armor can go on anyone and I think it’s best on Hoffman but what’s great is you choose in game.) I think most important is his 1 tactical action flaming bullets. That is easily one of the strongest abilities in the faction.... when Hoffman casts it. Due to Hoffman’s stupid speed he can position himself in such a way to get a huge portion of the enemy crew and make them def flips if they fail a wp 15 duel!!! Throw in the fact that because of the ability power conductors he could very easily increase the range from 8 inch bubble to 12 inch bubble or 16 inch bubble for an extra ap which means he can set up Sam and other powerful models like monster hunters to nuke the board. An Aura of that magnitude that can effect 24- 32 inches of a table is crazy. I think that Sam at least with Hoffman is probably the best buff to guild (besides guild guard) this errata since now for 10ss (instead of 12ss) you get a great shooting model with some resilience and one of the best tactical actions we have available to us. Armor 1-2 on a henchman that cant be ignored is super strong as a defensive deterrent and so I think Sam finally has a place. Just to talk about the rest of the list choices: Wastrel: is a super flexible piece that is usually rush of magic x 2. It can help place cyborg upgrades or heal or it can shoot pretty well or even scheme run in a pinch. Hoffman and friends are rather card dependent so getting to see two extra cards helps a ton. Burtal Effigy: great model, great buff to Hoffman, good scheme runner and he is a great Hoffman caddy/ power loop target. Brutal Emissary: Very important to get more scrap markers turn 1 since it’s basically the only way we can do it without Joss. He is a good power loop target. He is a construct from the start which helps a bunch. To me he is clearly the softest pick in the list but even so he has three attacks (two with his normal attack and his (0) that does two damage and makes a scrap marker). Due to his (0) it means he does basically the same damage as Francisco with a better spread on his normal attack of 2/4/6. Hoffman can give him an extra ap or 2 when needed to get more stuff done. Also since Hoffman almost always has powerloop the emissary gives him to attack flips when he’s close enough. Lastly the cyborg upgrade for rams can be placed on this guy by the wastrel so it can do some extra damage. This guy could easily turn into Fransico, The jury, or the judge with lead lined coat + debt or some other upgrade but given all his positives I still think he’s a little ahead. monster hunter: great power for the price and if you make one a construct it can take advantage of targeting system to get the free crit strike after your turn one stalks. 6x stones: this gives Hoffman and Sam much more resilience. You could take three of them and get a guild guard but I think I prefer the stones. I think the lead lined coat upgrade / captain dashel / the judge point decrease helps Hoffman more than anyone because getting more access to armor henchmen is huge for him. Making phiona, the judge, the jury or Fransico armor 1-2 on top of their current defense is pretty sweet (the judge and jury being my favorites after Sam.)

Tbh I totally disagree on the point you made about collodi. I don’t think two of our model should be nerfed because of an op master that’s out of faction... if anything collodi should see an adjustment (gun symbol in his attack and add a ml range or he can’t make himself fast....or something) because making two of our borderline models bad because some out of faction master could abuses one of them should be the opposite of how faqs are decided. in terms of encouragement I’m going to kind of disagree also. As is most people don’t take it because it’s a high cost upgrade (2ss), it doesn’t benifit Somer directly (unless Sammy takes it and then it’s super expensive), and it makes our squishy models even squishier when it’s used. The two models that would have benifit most from the ability to use encouragement to charge just got nerfed (franc and Burt) so honestly getting one faq that makes an upgrade playable would be nice. At least looking at survivors (our new playable model) it’s a pretty hard choice to use encouragement on the charge but if you had to do it per attack then it would never get used by them. Likely that’s the case for most of our models because both of our last remaining 7ss reckless model only have 6-7 wounds and trading half your starting wounds (+ 1 for reckless) for positive attack flips is a pretty terrible trade. Since we were talking about collodi above....compare encouragement and fated. Even just the 1/3 of fated where collodi hands out focus or defensive is stronger than encouragement (no charge faq) for gremlins.

Actually the ability reads pretty clear that another crier (outside of range) could take the damage as long as at least another model with the over excited ability is within 3 of the model discarding. Intereting find.

I mean I guess I have two questions. 1) why does it feel like when one of our models get nerfed its a hard nerf vs when other times (ex: mech rider) it keeps them playable? Like roosters, Lenny, stuffed piglets, & the pigapult seem pretty worthless and at least it is my understanding that they never see the table post nerf (I’m talking for hiring). Now I know you said that this errata makes it easier to make adjustments going forward but tbh it feels bad that now for 6 months we have a faction that is super lopsided and feels like most of its medium to high cost models are almost all medium-weak. I mean honestly other than Somer (and for magical models Wong) our masters don’t support our troops that well and we don’t have upgrades like debt to the guild or recalled training to make our models hit like a truck. So overall I just wish we could keep more of our pre errata good models playable. Also it feels like other factions got the pseudo nerf in that gg18 makes them worse off.... but we get the double whammy in that we got our good models nerfed and are also hurting because of how good we were in GG17 and how much worse we are in gg18. 2) why does it feel like we get neglected when it comes to our important faq questions? Personally I don’t use encouragement, lucky effigy or the lucky emissary because a huge part of what could/would make them playable is unknowns since there is no clear cut answer on the boards and we don’t know how it should be treated. Encouragement: does it work on a charge action? (if not it will probably continue to not see play.) lucky effigy/ emissary: what constitutes a flip? Is it any card that is turned over for flipping or is it the selected flipped card (main thing for this is if the cards flipped off of positive or negative flips count for the rams abilities. I think every card on positive or negative flips count but it seems that according to the question on the boards it is unclear.) Now I’m not sure if all (or any) of these would see much play even if they got the favorable faq but at the very least I would know what they do and not have to potentially argue rules at the table. I think all three could be cool but it’s been a long time and I think clarity is important (years for encouragement).

Ehh it’s fine but it’s nothing to write home about. I feel like the efficient way to get sacrificial swine is to kill summoned bayou with skeeters to make an extra skeeter & a corpse. Which basically means you get 2 corpse markers for one summoned model. Even though that’s decent it requires a good amount of resources. Though at least it helps mitigate the absurd cost of the pigapult. Something like this doesn’t seem terrible. Declared Faction: Gremlins Crew Name: 50ss Leader: Somer Teeth Jones - Cache:(4) Do Over 1ss Family Tree 2ss Skeeter 2ss Raphael LaCroix 6ss Dirty Cheater 1ss Gremlin Taxidermist 7ss Dirty Cheater 1ss Survivor 4ss Survivor 4ss Lightning Bug 5ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Bayou Gremlin 3ss Pigapult 8ss I guess if the situation is such that you need another pig it’s nice to be able to get it back to the pigapult quickly. Also I think in the right pool the pigapult has game. (Take prisoner and public demo seem like decent schemes for the pigapult.)

I like your analysis and I totally agree everyone else is getting better and we are no longer this amazing under costed faction even though the sentiment lives on... also for us to compete reckless is basically required right now. Without it basically all our models are bad. There is a reason we barely take non reckless stuff. I would also argue that most of our good reckless stuff has gone from slightly under costed to normal cost. I mean look at the hoarcat pride. That thing is a freaking monster at 4ss. Though survivors are a bit more survivable these things are 3/4/5 ml 5 and have a trigger for double + flips to damage. throw in a df/wp 5 and 6 wounds and devour these thing are super strong for the cost. Also I don’t think arcainists needed more broken stuff but it’s there... Steamfitter for 6 also awesome etc etc. Same goes for guild (monster hunters are amazing for 6ss). Resurrectionists got more great stuff than I can put down. Neverborn got bunraku, Lelu and baby kade all brought up to a very strong place. So more than anything the mean has changed. before we were a little cheap and could trade well with glass cannons. Now lots of stuff is cheap more resilient and stronger and we keep getting worse because there is that sentiment that we are still so strong. Hell the best gremlin player in the world/USA more or less has given up on them not because of just this nerf but this constant nerf after nerf that has just put us behind the curve. (he’s less negative about them after his last video but it seems pretty obvious that he’s going neverborn because he thinks there’s a competitive advantage.)

I don’t understand you make it seem like a special rule can’t be added to the card. If Burt/McTavish had an ability that strictly said at any time they are hired outside of faction they cost one additional soul stone then it would still impact Nellie and make them cost 8/11ss (so she still gets a benifit but not the full one.) I honestly don’t see myself taking Burt ever now. he was maybe 1/2 stone under costed and now he just doesn’t make sense compared to the 3 cheap models (bug, slop, survivor) or Raphael. Tbh it was always close for me to choose between Burt + dc vs two lightning bugs (8 vs 10 ss prior to errata) but now choosing between Burt + dc vs a lighting bug + survivor for the same 9ss has definitely shifted my selection towards the smaller guys. Trying to compare misaki to Burt is stupid. Misaki could kill half your crew with very few ways of mitigating the damage. Especially in 10tt when you could also push her up half the board. It led to a terrible player experience since the game could winde up being over the turn it begun. (I think the Viks being unburried by the scion of blood is similarly stupid and should have also got nerfed but...it didn’t) Also like I said it would be different if it felt like we were getting new models or play styles over the past year. We have not and just got nerf after nerf. Book 5 gave us a grand total of 0 game altering models. We got maybe 1 niche pick that will rarely if ever see the table and a summon only model (4ss for a flying piglet lol). Bayou gremlins while decent are only “good” with two masters in the faction. Somer makes their shooting more reliable / he summons them and Zipp gives them a way to hand out mood swings. In all other cases they are worse than guild guard / desperate mercs....especially since Both have better or equal stats (except wk) and other stuff...The only thing a bayou really has is drunk and reckless which does work sometimes but often does not get used (healing a scheme runner that most likely ran off to...scheme run seems rather unlikely). Also ashes and dust costing 1ss more makes such a small difference in terms of what it does for Levi and Hamlin...it’s a 7% increase so if you were paying it before chances are you’d be willing to pay for it now. Lastly I think the model that could have used a -1 ss is the rooster rider. I know many people think of them as the op model of old but they shouldn’t be relegated to unplayable forever. Basically all the other riders (except mech) went down to 10 so the roosters should have gone down to 5 (maintain half cost). At 5 ss I would totally consider roosters again. As is though why would I take a rooster over Raphael or pere at the same cost. At 5 I could see roosters having reasonable trade offs between them and bugs/slops.

Though I agree that only 2ss in most lists wouldn’t break gremlins but when you add up the nerfs it really feels like a total dick punch (stuffed piglets, Lenny, rooster riders, pigapult added in with the nerf to franc, Burt & mctavish.....it’s just oppressive on a faction with so few decent options as is.) It does feel weird that we got hit the hardest of all the factions when as far as I can see resers (in the Uk) and arcainists here in the states didn’t get hurt when they are winning more of the big tournaments and didn’t get a nerf at all (nurse nerf was a bigger hit to Zoraida in gremlins and neverborn than anything.) Also I think Arcainists got a great buff in Cojo and are getting stronger and stronger models (wave 5 was great for them). Like I said in my previous post Somer is quite a bit worse this year than in 2017 and so hitting us again after a big nerf in the summer and a weak wave 5 isn’t going to do anything positive and it just makes me feel like if I want to be competitive in tournaments with the old gremlin play style I should just play collodi. From what I can see they went specifically after the strong mercenaries But it’s totally uneven. For example bishop as a merc (now only 9ss) outside of gremlins is way better than Burt (swift df/wp 6 three more wounds fights df or wp....kind of crazy). I mean even in gremlins I could see bishop seeing some play with Trixie pushing him 21.....nasty. I just think that this nerf wasn’t that well thought out given some of the buffs out there. I wish they were a little more restrained on gremlins given that we keep getting weaker every update over the last year compared to every other factions for three errata and a book.... The one positive is that I do think it’s interesting that they gave us a little resilience with this errata and I think now we could end up being one of the more annoying factions to put down but It’s still worse than what we could do before. Something like this is where my list is headed toward: 50 SS Gremlins Crew Somer Teeth Jones + 4 Pool - Family Tree (2) - Do Over (1) - Encouragement / dirty cheater / liquid bravery Skeeter (2) Skeeter (2) Raphael LaCroix (6) + (maybe dirty cheater) Slop Hauler (5) Slop Hauler (5) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Bayou Gremlin (3) Bayou Gremlin (3) Bayou Gremlin (3) or 50 SS Gremlins Crew Somer Teeth Jones + 4 Pool - Family Tree (2) Skeeter (2) Gremlin Taxidermist (7) - Dirty Cheater (1) Raphael LaCroix (6) Slop Hauler (5) Slop Hauler (5) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Survivor (4) Bayou Gremlin (3) Bayou Gremlin (3) That’s 12-13 models That turns into 15-16 turn one. You have 5 htk models with a savings of 5ss from before. Between Somer 6 bayous and Raphael you have a super strong shooting base (encouragement can turn into 2 stones or dirty cheater/ liquid bravery on Somer and Raphael so lots of great options) The slops heal everyone and keep pace with the survivors wk 4 so you don’t fall behind as much. The slops can also get models down to def 4 where the survivors can rip apart a model way over their cost. It’s hard to drop the taxidermist so that’s the reason for the second list (the taxidermist usually does a ton of work for me because of summoning and he’s mostly self sufficient...but his damage is pretty similar to a survivor which costs half and they have = or better stats so he might get cut...) The biggest issue for me is that now we have to mass up even more models..... I think this is the direction I am going towards and it seems that wyrd has pushed us from mostly 6-8 ss models to almost all cheap models since our good stuff is too expensive now and two survivors out damage and out last every other model in our range. (vs higher armor factions like guild & arcanists lightning bugs will come in while vs anticipated wp battles like neverborn and resers liquid bravery comes in since it’s an almost all minion crew and makes all the minions base 6-7 wp). Even with the above it just feels kind of uphill and I’ve been messing around with collodi. I think in a tournament I don’t see any gremlin combination being quite as good as him . I am going to test out survivors and stuff but on paper it doesn’t seem like gremlins will be my first choice anymore. (Maybe A lightning bug throwing out a low ram to heal on his (0) could be sweet and having 12+ models that when they die near Somer get you two cards is pretty nice but yeah we will have to see.)

Personally I freaking hate that our two real beater models (Higher than min 3) got the largest nerfs besides the nurse. Going from 7->8 sucks. Throw in the fact that already we were kinda weaker looking in gg18 it just kinda blows. Also since they are our only two real heavy hitters at least one is probabaly the way forward. (I think for most lists I’m dropping Burt and keeping franc because Francois helps us deal with certain things that most other models in our range can’t) The worst was McTavish because as is he was only taken with Wong and now even with Wong he might not be worth it. (Especially since taking two bushwackers is cheaper and probably more efficient.) On the other hand I think the biggest winners for us are: 1) Survivor - these guys are freakin sweet for 4ss each. They are def 5 wp 5 armor 1 htk reckless models with ml 5 rg 2 and an awesome 2/4/5 damage that often will do poison damage. That’s unheard of levels of power for 4ss. In addition they the same damage spread on a 9 inch range gun if they hit a 5 on the (0). Is it a guarantee? No but on a 4ss model that’s gravy to have a gun as good as that ml attack. The one short coming is wk 4 but I think they can make up for it with reckless & the movement tricks that we have (slop haulers do and they also are wk4.) I think this is probably the biggest winner out of the whole errata because survivors were almost playable before but because of how many good 5ss models there were they ended up being totally overlooked (mostly because of slops and lightning bugs having a bunch of utility + decent damage) 2) raphael - this guy is pretty resilient and at 6 it’s just great. I think he’s close to auto take with Somer now because they need exactly the same stuff (do it like this on rams) and getting a few extra powerful shots is nice for such a cheap price. You do have to watch out for his low def and wp but armor & htk help. 3) bushwhacker - these guys are mah & Somer only imo but they have awesome stats at 5ss def / wp 6 6 wounds and pretty great movement in mah (they can get an 8 inch push every turn if needed). Since they have 2/3/4 crit strike and the two movement triggers they are pretty good in ml and their shooting that ignores cover is pretty great now (in comparison) since mctavish cost more than double their cost at the same sh. They play different in Somer and mah but for mah they are great all around models while for Somer they are better gun line pieces that can fight in combat if approached. (For me I think I’d only take them in mah but who knows in a super shooty Somer list 1-2 could work) 4) mech porkchop - he is now an interesting option with def 6 and armor for 6. His + to charges for the duration of an activation is nice (and works during Zoraida’s obey). The porkchop has the nice 2/3/5 ml 6 that on 50% of the triggers is + 1 damage(or burning). also this helps Ulix a bunch because now taking a 50mm base pig is cheap. Also for supply wagon it’s a cheap 50mm. This is also a nice buff to sparks since it makes it cheaper to get that scrap marker. Honorable Mention - whisky golem - I would have loved if he went down to 8 (-2 like a few of the riders) but even at 9 he is pretty decent. a nimble wk/cg 6 gives him nice range and he does pack a punch. Since Burt and franc are more expensive I think he will see the table as a slightly more resilient piece. (The main thing preventing him from being higher on my list is that the taxidermist exists....the taxidermist fills a similar role and it can summon so 9/10 times I think I’d take the taxidermist over him. Though if all the dirty cheaters are all used up the whiskey’s free upgrade gives him that extra resilience that the taxidermist wouldn’t have.) Although the other buffs are nice They didn’t get enough of a push (I don’t see myself using mancha over the whiskey or franc). I do wish they made Moon shinobi 4 ss like survivors because then they could be in a slot where they didn’t have to be better than lightning bugs and slop haulers ( lightning bugs do basically everything better than moon shinobi....unless your fighting the rare df 6+ with wp 4 or less)