Balance/Power Creep in Malifaux

[Myyrä]

9 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Another possible option is to change some of the on hit effects to "after dealing more than 1 damage".

Like after dealing moderate or severe damage? I wonder why anyone hasn't thought of that one before...

[LunarSol]

Just now, Myyrä said:

Like after dealing moderate or severe damage? I wonder why anyone hasn't thought of that one before...

No, because its still easier to get Mod or Severe against low Df.  It would specifically have to say "more than 1 damage" so Armor could affect it.

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

No, because its still easier to get Mod or Severe against low Df.  It would specifically have to say "more than 1 damage" so Armor could affect it.

I'd say armor +2 is quite good enough as it is.

[admiralvorkraft]

I really think that every model should have an exploitable weakness. That's a huge part of what makes the game tactically interesting, and I hate things like Kirai's conflux which go, "Hey, you know that one weakness your crew sort of had, here's an ability that removes it." It just makes for lazy, list based play - in my opinion.

Malifaux is mostly really good at making models that are extremely hard to take down if you don't have the tools, but that you can take out or mitigate if you approach them the right way and I hope that never goes away.

[LunarSol]

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I'd say armor +2 is quite good enough as it is.

I generally agree.  Just providing suggestions for those who don't.

[Tawg]

4 hours ago, solkan said:

An attack which applies an effect if it fails is essentially an action which automatically succeeds.  I don't think that's creating a useful dichotomy, especially is a game where the attacker can just cheat aces to produce the "fail" result.

Otherwise, by my count there are four models that have "After failing" triggers on their attack actions.  And both of the after failing triggers that cause damage require a non-automatic suit.

True.  But they could use qualifiers for it, like "Misses by X or more" (Because we're trying to hurt high Df targets more) or just declaring "if the target has a Df X or more" or something similar.

Or just effects which are slightly dangerous to higher stats, like a zombie (Swarm?) with something like

"Drag Down:  While engaged with this model, treat all opposing model's Df as equal to this model's printed Df."

Something like that, where they can effect the opponent or something, to variable effect depending on the opponent's Df.  And has to deal with scattering while using that thing's Ability (Although many Ca don't I guess).  I mean models do similar things already I suppose, like the Zombie Dogs, they give what, is that -1 Df?

I still think "failing" triggers or effects are a viable option in the game, as long as they are not producing results everything else wants in the first place (Like automatic Slow, like you said, that would be a bit over the top).

[Stryder]

Hmmm...the main dangers there are pretty apparent. Triggers like that would have to do something really minor (Like maybe push the target 1" to represent them 'dodging', which could still be potentially game-winning, unless the opponent always makes the push even if you are attacking your own model), or never be built in, and would also have to be on models that can't be spammed by summoning etc. to avoid people relying on them. An 'after failing' trigger should be considered a nice mini-bonus rather than a viable means of winning, or at least getting one over on your opponent. There are already plenty of other super-tricky ways to do that anyway. Trust me, I found plenty. The only limit is your own ingenuity.

[solkan]

27 minutes ago, Tawg said:

True.  But they could use qualifiers for it, like "Misses by X or more" (Because we're trying to hurt high Df targets more) or just declaring "if the target has a Df X or more" or something similar.

Effects which simply ignore the Df stat and simply cause damage already exist.  Why create one which undermines player agency and the duel mechanics?

The various ways that models have for exploding do a quite nice job of making high Df values irrelevant.  Explosive Demise, the odor on the chihuahua, etc. 

27 minutes ago, Tawg said:

Or just effects which are slightly dangerous to higher stats, like a zombie (Swarm?) with something like

"Drag Down:  While engaged with this model, treat all opposing model's Df as equal to this model's printed Df."

When was the last time you looked at the steam arachnids?  What's the difference between a steam arachnid, and an attack which succeeds even it it fails?

27 minutes ago, Tawg said:

Something like that, where they can effect the opponent or something, to variable effect depending on the opponent's Df.  And has to deal with scattering while using that thing's Ability (Although many Ca don't I guess).  I mean models do similar things already I suppose, like the Zombie Dogs, they give what, is that -1 Df?

Player agency.  Zombie dog moves into position, the other player can do something about it. 

27 minutes ago, Tawg said:

I still think "failing" triggers or effects are a viable option in the game, as long as they are not producing results everything else wants in the first place (Like automatic Slow, like you said, that would be a bit over the top).

Write something up, then work through what that sort of thing does to the duel process. 

There's something like six 'After failing' defensive triggers, and the previously mentioned four attack triggers for a reason. 

[Myyrä]

There already exists a huge number of attacks that ignore high Df. They are called attacks that target Wp.

[valhallan42nd]

20 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

There already exists a huge number of attacks that ignore high Df. They are called attacks that target Wp.

 

6 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I really think that every model should have an exploitable weakness. That's a huge part of what makes the game tactically interesting, and I hate things like Kirai's conflux which go, "Hey, you know that one weakness your crew sort of had, here's an ability that removes it." It just makes for lazy, list based play - in my opinion.

Malifaux is mostly really good at making models that are extremely hard to take down if you don't have the tools, but that you can take out or mitigate if you approach them the right way and I hope that never goes away.

Incorporeal is a weakness masquerading as a bonus. Everything that has incorp pretty much has half as many wounds as it normally would, so half damage to half wounds is... normal wounds. Meanwhile, casts do full damage to half wounds.

[admiralvorkraft]

I'll let someone else run the numbers on that, but even if it doesn't increase survivability directly, the ability to ignore terrain and models more than makes up for any slight increase in fragility.

[admiralvorkraft]

Not to mention, they were costed with that weakness, and doubling their wounds - even if that it's how the math works out - skews that balance hugely while demanding nothing from the player except setting the model on the table.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Incorporeal does not function as double wounds. Don't forget, in addition to not affecting things that aren't melee or ranged attacks the way math works in malifaux you always round up. So if a beater model hits you for 3 dmg you are still taking 2, so functionally you need the enemy to be doing 4 points of dmg or more before Incorporeal, as a defense, becomes better than just having armor 1. 

Case in point look at sorrows. Ridiculously easy to kill with def 3 and low wounds, it still generally only takes between 1 to 2 Ap to kill them. Probably a good thing though if they were harder to kill Pandora would go from being an upper tier master to a system destroying NPE. 

During the open for the first wave Pandora and three sorrows killed a rail golem, Mei Feng and Kang in 1 turn from full health.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, incorporeal models have low enough health that it's more they have vulnerabilities to...

...common odd conventional damage (1, 3 both don't suffer heavily; by the time you're up to 5 you're threatening a lot of incorporeal things anyway)

...spells

...blasts

...conditions

...pulses

 

It's easier to list what they're actually solid against, which is even (or possibly high) damage conventional attacks. I think a lot of them (certainly not all) have too little health because the value of incorporeal was overestimated.

[santaclaws01]

27 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

Yeah, incorporeal models have low enough health that it's more they have vulnerabilities to...

...common odd conventional damage (1, 3 both don't suffer heavily; by the time you're up to 5 you're threatening a lot of incorporeal things anyway)

...spells

...blasts

...conditions

...pulses

 

It's easier to list what they're actually solid against, which is even (or possibly high) damage conventional attacks. I think a lot of them (certainly not all) have too little health because the value of incorporeal was overestimated.

Yeah, the only models it's actually useful on can probably be counted on one hand.


Also, i feel this thread has turned from power creep and more "why most defensive abilities suck"

[SpiralngCadavr]

They're not so much bad as they are often less useful than they seem on paper, which sometimes means overpriced.

[Ludvig]

Just to nitpick: blasts don't ignore incorporeal unless the original attack does.

The fact that half the blastmarkers placed at my local club come from Sonnia even if she is only played once every ten games might be responsible for the fear of blasts.  

If anything I would have made the ability to ignore it a lot more rare. Hard to kill is a very potent ability since so few things ignore it. Most other defensive abilities have so many counters.

[trikk]

6 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Case in point look at sorrows. Ridiculously easy to kill with def 3 and low wounds, it still generally only takes between 1 to 2 Ap to kill them. Probably a good thing though if they were harder to kill Pandora would go from being an upper tier master to a system destroying NPE. 

I have to disagree as while I agree that low Df makes them easy to hit but killing them in 1 or 2 AP requires henchmen-master level moderate damage.

To kill them in 1 AP you need to have damage 4 ignoring Incorporeal or damage 7 not ignoring it. I believe there are enforcers that die from 7 damage. A lot of minions require Damage 5 to die so I wouldn`t say its that big of a difference.

 

If you count sorrow defensive abilities please remember Martyr. I played a game with Pandora when a Sorrow got a lot of damage, but it was moved to Pandora/Iggy with Martyr and suddenly the Sorrows were really hard to kill.

[daniello_s]

True. Even poor Levi needs to flip/cheat Severe to kill to Sorrow with one hit whether shooting or in melee...

Sorrows are so broken...

[lusciousmccabe]

8 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

It's easier to list what they're actually solid against, which is even (or possibly high) damage conventional attacks. I think a lot of them (certainly not all) have too little health because the value of incorporeal was overestimated.

And in some cases their wounds are so low that an ability that's strong against heavy damage isn't even that relevant

9 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Incorporeal does not function as double wounds. Don't forget, in addition to not affecting things that aren't melee or ranged attacks the way math works in malifaux you always round up. So if a beater model hits you for 3 dmg you are still taking 2, so functionally you need the enemy to be doing 4 points of dmg or more before Incorporeal, as a defense, becomes better than just having armor 1.

Here's some tables I made to try compare different wound counts and defensive abilities. I left out mixed damage scenarios for the sake of simplicity and the story would be different story if I hand't, but given the assumption that you're being hit repeatedly for the same amount of damage it's fairly clear that Incorporeal not double wounds. (EDIT - or at least it might be if I could get the tables to fit on the page. )

Where it does become quite good is when you have 5-7 wounds and are taking 2/3/4 damage, although I was surprised at how similar it is to Armor +1 at this range.  

Incorporeal								Armor +1
	Number of Sh/Ml attacks survived at listed damage								Number of Sh/Ml attacks survived at listed damage
Wounds	1	2	3	4	5	6		Wounds	1	2	3	4	5	6
1								1
2	1	1						2	1	1
3	2	2	1					3	2	2	1
4	3	3	1					4	3	3	1	1
5	4	4	2	2				5	4	4	2	1	1
6	5	5	2	2				6	5	5	2	1	1	1
7	6	6	3	3	2	2		7	6	6	3	2	1	1
								8	7	7	3	2	1	1
								9	8	8	4	2	2	1
								10	9	9	4	3	2	1
Armor +2								No ability
	Number of Sh/Ml attacks survived at listed damage								Number of Sh/Ml attacks survived at listed damage
Wounds	1	2	3	4	5	6		Wounds	1	2	3	4	5	6
1								1
2	1	1	1					2	1
3	2	2	2	1				3	2	1
4	3	3	3	1	1			4	3	1	1
5	4	4	4	2	1	1		5	4	2	1	1
6	5	5	5	2	1	1		6	5	2	1	1	1
7	6	6	6	3	2	1		7	6	3	2	1	1	1
8	7	7	7	3	2	1		8	7	3	2	1	1	1
9	8	8	8	4	2	2		9	8	4	2	2	1	1
10	9	9	9	4	3	2		10	9	4	3	2	1	1
								11	10	5	3	2	2	1
								12	11	5	3	2	2	1
								13	12	6	4	3	2	2
								14	13	6	4	3	2	2

 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

19 hours ago, valhallan42nd said:

Incorporeal is a weakness masquerading as a bonus. Everything that has incorp pretty much has half as many wounds as it normally would, so half damage to half wounds is... normal wounds. Meanwhile, casts do full damage to half wounds.

I think that's exaggerating things a bit. I mean, I doubt that Datsue Ba would have 12 Wounds, Onryo would have 10, or that Jaakuna Ubume would have 12 if they weren't incorporeal. 50% more might be a more accurate prediction.

[Yvarre]

Reading through the posts of balance in stat lines through to defensive abilities and the specifics of incorporeal, I'm reminded of a Wave 1 model I rather enjoy playing: The Hungering Darkness.  Huggy is Df 3, which does its small part in bringing down the average, with incorporeal and 7 wounds.  Depending on Lynch's Limited upgrade, Huggy can get a little more of a defensive ability and an extra AP to cast or have a bury and recur mechanic.  If Huggy is focused on at all, especially with casters, he is really easy to drop, but he can also hit decently hard at 2/4/6 to then heal himself, gain plus flips to a model he hits next attack(s), or gain a 4/5/7 damage track off of a ram.  Now, as a player, I know that I need to choose realistic targets for Huggy to take down without opening him up for too much retaliation because at Df 3 with fairly situational defensive abilities he will die.  This is where activation control and positioning tricks start to shine.  Not everyone likes Beckoners, but they do have a Ca 6 and bring things for Huggy and Lynch to kill away from the rest of an opponent's crew.

Similarly, Levi with the Obedient Wretch and a Belle or two can out activate an opponent and bring Levi and possibly Taelor or some other big beater to kill any model with near impunity.  Positioning dynamics like pushes and lures add to the inevitability of stat lines mattering, but other than these forms of board control a player has a large say in where their models are.  Many crews can threaten and control large areas of the board, but no model is everywhere at once.  Thus, positioning one's own vulnerabilities in a way that the opponent can make the least use of them (or fall into a trap) while killing or scheming as necessary to score points becomes the in game balancing act.  It's possible to table crews with superior stat lines if one can out position them and prioritize targets well.  As a Ten Thunders player, this is sort of my faction's shtick. 

Does anything in Shifting Loyalties compete with the Rat Engine for activation control?

What are the new card cycling engines that can compete with the ever so subtle Phillip and the Nanny or various Rush of Magics and such?

I think many of the critical points of balance lie in consistency, which high stats help with to a large degree, but abilities like hand cycling, generating more AP through summoning and handing out fast, controlling board position all add up to the game's balance as a whole.  Overall AP, wound counts, damage tracks, the control hand- the various resources that we have to work with to deny our opponents theirs are all factors to account for in the impact of new additions to the game.  How do the newer models impact the balance of resources in a game?

I do think the Emissaries are going to seriously impact competitive play (already are where they can be proxied) as strong toolboxes, and Anna Lovelace offering more summoning where it ought not be seems a bit tricky.  Queeg sure does alot as a 6 stone model...

Edited May 22, 2016 by Yvarre
Mistake

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hayreddin can't summon anything. Just as an FYI.

[daniello_s]

'Incorporeal is weakness cause Ca attack do full damage'... Interesting logic. Following it armor is weakness too cause there are models ignoring it and then whole durability of your model which ypu rely heavily to is gone. Same with HtK, Df triggers etc. if you are unlucky enough to meet 'wrong kind' of enemy on the other side of the table.

 

[lusciousmccabe]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

'Incorporeal is weakness cause Ca attack do full damage'... Interesting logic. Following it armor is weakness too cause there are models ignoring it and then whole durability of your model which ypu rely heavily to is gone. Same with HtK, Df triggers etc. if you are unlucky enough to meet 'wrong kind' of enemy on the other side of the table.

 

And by wrong kind of enemy you mean Levi right? ?

There's also a kind of a reverse effect that I've found in other games but not yet with malifaux where people spam something like armour in the hopes that their opponent doesn't bring enough stuff that can deal with it. So basically  you have a specialist list that will either have a big advantage or a big disadvantage depending on matchup.

I think maybe it's not so popular because you can deal with something from other angles if you don't have a hard counter in malifaux, or it could just be that people like diverse lists in our meta.