Rabble Rousing and Whining Thread

[enderwiggin]

I would say the burden of proof to address the common complaints can't really be ignored by the other side either. Take the Belles, for example, do you really think that player that took them to the #1 spot in the UK tournament with all the past years winners didn't have any of them? If you already have legions of people annoyed with them and (for at least one night) the world's best player using them... I'm not really sure what other information you're hoping to hold out for.

 

Balancing a game on the higher end works well enough if the game is suitably the same at higher end tournaments, as it stands from what I've read in this thread and others is there's a noticeable (somehow) playing/model choice difference in US/UK (largest markets atm I believe). However at the normal playing level, you see a much less noticeable difference and the complaints are always the same few models over and over again.

 

 

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As an aside Drool_Bucket, Jervis Johnson was a plague to specialist games. He gave us horrendous rules in BFG, Necromunda, and Epic. If there was tweaking done it was by the fans left behind to pick up the Specialist games pieces supporting the very few designers assigned to the lines in the very end. His positions within the company at large are to blame for much of the direction the company went in after 4th edition and the power creep that followed. He's absolutely not the model of any game designer in which quality should ever be compared to.

 

 

Edit: Btw, the UK winner (Ant) apparently fought a Levi in the final. To be fair, in the thread it was discussed that Levi was hard countered by Seamus and the Belles did not do as well as he'd hoped.

[tomjoad]

...is Aaron in this thread somewhere?

 

Hiding.

 

Seems like him.

I have few enough posts that I think I can afford abandoning this profile and starting a new one in order to escape from this shame...

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Another important point, which I believe is being extremely overlooked, is that not all masters are available in plastic yet and most of the ones that are have not had nearly enough play with them just yet. Errata-ing anything, let alone a Master, before we actually see all of the potential crews in game seems short sighted, in the end. My OP senses are tingling towards the gremlins though - I'll be researching those little buggers, that's for sure. >8)

I don't think I will ever be convinced Levy needs errata - he's powerful and he's just popular right now - with Molly, Shenlong, Brewmaster and others coming out I'm sure we will look back and see all of this Levy-talk as being a bit silly in retrospect. Maybe Wong will be te next Levy-problem, or will it be Ulix? (I really want to start playing gremlins!!!). The only crew I think Levy runs better than the actual master is Hoffman - but I think that that is because Levy is a good well rounded master and the hoff is a "smaller and less desirable" choice. Similarly, the overabundance of Levy could be attributed to the other Outcast masters as being less desirable... I would argue strongly that the absolute strongest faction, as a whole, is definently Arcanists and (possibly?) Gremlins in second. Why bring Levy down instead of other masters up (like the many many Tara-band aid approach, hehe)?

Icemyn is totally correct about the Levy pilots at Adepticon - everyone's list was so different it was great to see! I think that this is the exact opposite of a problem, however.

Also, I am willing to bet that the US and UK metas are seeing different things and I have seen no overarching consensus on pretty much a damn thing in this game yet. Someone says "ashigaru suck" and another person says they are awesome. One person says "levy is OP" and another says "oh hey! I finally figured levy out... he's not so bad after all." and so on.

[Dirial]

I am in every thread.

 

I don't know why you do that, Aaron, but I suspect you want to choke me to death with your avatar shenanigans.

 

Carry on, people! Very interesting discussion.

[Bengt]

And the gamin/oni have to do with art (the wind gamin art is even available in the TTB books, that thing does not look like a construct).

What does a construct look like to you? The clanky robots are only part of the constructs, there are things like the Rogue Necromancy, Dust Storm, Teddy, Stitched Together and perhaps most important in this context, the other Gamin. The Wind Gamin picture looks like a Fire Gamin with the flames replaced with feathers, Ice Gamin also follow the same aesthetic, heck, even Metal Gamin look organic with their clearly defined muscles. It sure seems like one of the categories of constructs are any artificial beings (as opposed to something with a life cycle) regardless of what material they were built from.

[katadder]

Only played 3 tourneys so far but outcast masters I have played against are the Viks and Hamelin. also havent seen levi at any of them.

Also I play Levi (occasionally) and have yet to use a non-faction model in his crews, although my outcast misaki does better.

 

Main faction for me to use is arcanists, and have never used a mech rider or even metal gamin, my average rank at tourneys so far (over a small period) is 5, with highest being 2nd and lowest being 8th. raspy is generally my goto master and even when the mech rider comes in plastic it wont be added to her crew.

 

Belles obviously I have never been that fussed about, have my high WP misaki crew, or raspy/ironsides who can remove all their suits when being targeted. yes they are annoying but wouldnt say broken as at best they are a support model.

 

My worst things to see so far are definitely gremlins:

Ulix with shot in the rear on the sow will see that sow go through all your cheap road bumps in one turn. He also managed to summon 3 warpigs over the course of the game, quite easily before throwing massive hurt onto something tougher and thats before or after it has fully activated itself.

Add in the worst model from gremlins - the slop hauler, that thing needs some real tone down. easy blasts, easy healing in a bubble that he doesnt even have to cast and he has reckless to move and do his healing. removing reckless is the only thing it needs though i think.

 

Gremlins are definitely going to be a problem faction in the future (especially once their emmisary comes out with his destined ability, how that got through untouched I dont know), I think its fairly obvious they didnt get enough testing as they have some really sick combos having played them alot.

[fengor]

I admit i'm a dirty filthy belle spammer and you will see belles in 99% of my lists... Then again I play Seamus 99% of the time...

[Adran]

 

Gremlins are definitely going to be a problem faction in the future (especially once their emmisary comes out with his destined ability, how that got through untouched I dont know), I think its fairly obvious they didnt get enough testing as they have some really sick combos having played them alot.

 

While I agree that Gremlins are a powerhouse waiting to be discovered as they get models, the Emmisary hasn't been printed yet. If you think it is abusable then play a few games to demonstrate how and send them to Justin.

[katadder]

mostly it looks ok, its just the destined thing where every gremlin on the board gets something, whether thats healed, or places a scheme marker or something.

 

they also seem to lack balance for almost built in fast on so many models (reckless or pig charges). yes they have downsides where they hurt themselves but this is all overcome by a slop hauler or 2.

[Math Mathonwy]

mostly it looks ok, its just the destined thing where every gremlin on the board gets something, whether thats healed, or places a scheme marker or something.

Have you tested it? Because it is random, there is a fair chance that the Scheme Marker goes into a completely useless place. In fact, it is rather rare that you would be positioned correctly to take advantage of it since you can't plan around getting the Scheme Marker. The same goes for the Healing - if you aren't damaged, it isn't useful.

 

they also seem to lack balance for almost built in fast on so many models (reckless or pig charges). yes they have downsides where they hurt themselves but this is all overcome by a slop hauler or 2.

Slop Haulers are slow when they heal. This limits their effectiveness. Also, hurting themselves is a pretty big deal when you are as squishy as a Gremlin is. Try playing them for a few games, it might really open your eyes to the balancing factors to all the extremely powerful things they can do.

[zFiend]

I thought they were over the top too for a very long time. Then I got some Gremlins and played Gremlins myself and realized they aren't really that bad. If they do the insane damages they usually kill themselves or hurt themselves really bad.

Slop Haulers with wk 4 are slow. So there will a turn without healing when they play catch up. Also if they die well that build is screwed.

They seem super strong on paper and the first few games but they have their weaknesses too.

[katadder]

Around summoners like somer and ulix the slowness doesnt matter as the blob doesnt go anywhere so a 4" move and heal plenty of grems/pigs within a radius for free is fine to keep up with all the newly summoned stuff that needs healing before it goes off and kills things.

 

having faced somers gunline numerous times where the haulers are hidden behind a swarm of gremlins hurting themselves isnt bad as they are back to fresh almost before you do anything other than take out some low SS model that somer replaces quite easily.

 

its not even looking at on paper, its actually playing them. ulix had 3 warpigs summoned that took less damage (due to lenny, including less damage on the summoning) then healed back to full due to 2 slop haulers. then those warpigs got to head off and charge things due to pig charge. then once the sow was killed the warpigs got a shot in the rear too for multiple charges per turn. shot in the rear isnt even an activation so things were then chain activating as well

[zFiend]

Well gladly no one plays Ulix here yet. I am terrified of that master from what I've read and heard.

I was mainly talking of the other gremlin masters.

[PraetorDragoon]

I personally think that the only (big) issue with Gremlins is the Thinking Luck trigger on exactly two models. Little cost for extremely high payoff. 

 

I am personally against Erratae and cuddleings unless it's really, really obnoxious. Mainly because I have seen cuddles/bannings in other games. The resulting state of "balance" doesn't last long, because players can and will find something new to exploit. After changes would have been made, there would be a new thread calling out for cuddles of the new "unbalanced" models. There cannot ever be "perfect balance". I think Malifaux is currently very well balanced compared to other games, and it would be a bad move to change it up.

 

Secondly, I want to point out that balance is also a part of a Meta. When there are different groups, for different people, there are many metas. What is preceived overpowered in one meta, it might not be overpowered in another one.

[Math Mathonwy]

I am personally against Erratae and Cuddleings unless it's really, really obnoxious. Mainly because I have seen Cuddles/bannings in other games. The resulting state of "balance" doesn't last long, because players can and will find something new to exploit. After changes would have been made, there would be a new thread calling out for Cuddles of the new "unbalanced" models. There cannot ever be "perfect balance". I think Malifaux is currently very well balanced compared to other games, and it would be a bad move to change it up.

Do you think that the Lynch errata was a bad move on Wyrd's part? An honest question, mind.

[PraetorDragoon]

Do you think that the Lynch errata was a bad move on Wyrd's part? An honest question, mind.

 

hmm. I can't really say that. I haven't seen that upgrade in action that much, and I'm hesistant to calling things out I haven't seen in action. 

[Victoria]

I thought it was interesting to note that for the masters I had two rounds against Levi, one against viks, and one against jack daw. Go outcasts!

 

I ended up playing (in a tournament setting) against Leveticus 5 times that weekend.

[moxypoo]

I want to touch on another point that's only been loosely discussed so far: the meta.

 

Obviously different locations will have different metas, but it seems that the really big tournaments tend to have a similar meta regardless of location in the world. I played competitive Magic: the Gathering for a really long time when I was younger.  For those who don't (or haven't) played MTG, a new block of cards is released every year and the most popular format allows you to make decks from the most recent two blocks.  Therefore, half of the cards for the most popular format rotate out every year. These fairly rapid rotations provide constant meta changes that aren't particularly feasible in a miniatures game.  However, the meta in MTG generally consists of 3ish top decks in a given "season," with the majority of competitive players playing one of the top decks.

 

Inevitably, someone will construct a new deck that hard counters the current most popular deck, leading to a decrease in popularity of the most popular deck. This tends to repeat as new cards are released. However, on rare occasion, a deck will be built that has no hard counter, and Wizards of the Coast drops the banhammer to smooth out the meta.

 

To bring this analogy to Malifaux: if Leveticus is currently the most popular, powerful master, then someone will figure out a hard counter to him and many tournament players will begin to bring the hard counter list, making Levy lists less powerful.  However, if Levy is truly overpowered, then it's unlikely that a hard counter will be discovered.  I'm interested to see how things pan out, but for now, we have to consider that the Malifaux meta is still in a state of massive transition with only about 70% (just a rough estimate, would have to actually go count for an accurate number) of current crews released in plastic.  As more crews become accessible, I think we'll see many other masters rise and fall. I predict this discussion will be repeated focusing on a few other unreleased masters.

[PolishSausage]

double austringer = dead waifs, as simple as that. Also jug rockets and scout the field creat some unsavory situations for the buggers to name couple more.

 

I always keep saying that its never Levy that is overpowerd, its the fact  that he is simple to master at a very proficient level. There are masters like that in malifaux that allow you to make mistakes and be very forgiving, and still smash your opponent in the face. There are masters in the game that get no respect that have far more gamebraking mechanics that when leanerd to play correctly by a skilled player will be a nightmare to face. Its all in the state of mind and our perception of what is good and what is bad that we fall into the trap of believing that levi is the be all master.

[zFiend]

Could you name a few masters you feel are like that Polishsausage? 

[Math Mathonwy]

double austringer = dead waifs, as simple as that. Also jug rockets and scout the field creat some unsavory situations for the buggers to name couple more.

 

I always keep saying that its never Levy that is overpowerd, its the fact  that he is simple to master at a very proficient level. There are masters like that in malifaux that allow you to make mistakes and be very forgiving, and still smash your opponent in the face. There are masters in the game that get no respect that have far more gamebraking mechanics that when leanerd to play correctly by a skilled player will be a nightmare to face. Its all in the state of mind and our perception of what is good and what is bad that we fall into the trap of believing that levi is the be all master.

Well, Levi won Adepticon and Gencon - maybe you should go and teach the whippersnappers a lesson with your superior Lady Justice Fu

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair though, and not indicative of anything in particular, Guild came in second at adepticon, which I believebisthe highest that faction has placed in any major tournament that I know of. Was very happy to see that.

[zFiend]

Well, Levi won Adepticon and Gencon - maybe you should go and teach the whippersnappers a lesson with your superior Lady Justice Fu

 

Pulling in the big guns instantly.

 

To be fair though, and not indicative of anything in particular, Guild came in second at adepticon, which I believebisthe highest that faction has placed in any major tournament that I know of. Was very happy to see that.

 

I doubt it was Justice though.

[Guy in Suit]

When I lost to the guy who won it all at Adepticon (congrats Joe!) it had nothing to do with him playing Levi and a lot to do with me fucking up.

 

Levi is an easier master to use in a tournament with as he is forgiving, important for a grueling event when mistakes will be made by the best of players. But being forgiving to small mistakes doesn't make him harder to beat, just easier to not lose with, if that makes sense. (You are less likely to hand the game to your opponent accidentally, but no less likely to lose to a better player.)

 

Trying to use one event as a cudgel to make your point repetitively is doing your argument a disservice. 

 

The only change I would like to see is the 'Not within 4" rule applied to all scheme markers, not just Interacts.  Just cuz I think Collette and Merris' little scheme marker towers are stupid. 

[Hateful Darkblack]

(Topic of playing against Leveticus split off to http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/107711-how-to-stop-leveticus/)