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iamthefly

Put off playing as Brewmaster

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Hi folks, 

Help a gremlin out. My friend got put off playing Brewmaster. 

He put brewmaster on the table for the first time a couple of nights ago and I put down McM. Corner Deployment.  I had 5 face cards in my hand turn 1 & 2. We both called the game half way through turn 2 as Brewmaster had shut down my crew and the Rotten Belles on the wings which were there to pull models out of the bubble were out of action.

I paralysed Brewmaster turn 2, but Macha removed it. I couldn't get to Trixiebel past the bubble. 

I faced brewmaster once before at a tournament and the same thing happened. Brewie can resummon Wesley, who can resummon Brewie.  Neither of us can see a way to play against Brewmaster, so my friend decided not to take him again, because it wasn't a game, but that's not fair on him so I'd really appreciate it if you Gremlin players could help me make a game of it.

Not sure what Wyrd are thinking when they made this master, but there might be some way to play Malifaux I've not thought of yet. It obviously made it through play testing. 

Thanks for the help in advance. 

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Kill Brewie when Wesley isn't within 6", either by killing Wesley after Brewie has gone that turn and then focusing on the master himself or by somehow moving one of them. 

Not killing him but tying him up with chaff models in a useless part of the table is also an option. You belles could probably have pulled him way out of position for you to gank him without Wesley protection or to have one of the belles hang out with him in your deployment corner and lure him back if he tries to do something useful.

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I played against in a tournament yesterday, and I'll echo what Ludvig said: Send in someone expendable to get caught in the bubble, while your killy models destroy and scheme the rest of his crew to pieces, as they arent durable at all.

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I assume he used trixie to cheat initiative to go first and setup the bubble?

Use the rotten Belle's to pull Brew master out of position instead of trying to free up your models.

 

Curious what his crew was as mancha and Trixie are a large amount of pts

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The one thing that always messes me up when playing Brewmaster is the existence of Candy..... doesn't matter if I go first because Candy paralyzes the first model, so she just keeps being run right at the master, and that first turn either locks him down with no Drinking Party or someone else goes first unimpeded by Drinking Party.

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Sebastian and Assura rotten are good for Dog Factory,

Dogs/ Rafkin charge 1ap models with poison.

minimum 2 bells to start pulling enemy models to you, and in few corner cases your models out of bubble.

3x little gassers to spread poison without attacking and be a pain. 

Chiaki for condi removal

 

Sit back with McM and expunge key pieces t1 and t2 before going in there. If you want to annoy your opponent take between 3-6 guild autopsies 1-2 bells and grave spirit for reactivate shtick

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12 minutes ago, Swinerider said:

I don't know now what to say, this is the first time I've heard the problem that Brewmaster it too strong. 

Exactly! 

@iamthefly - send me your mate's list, please! I've got a tournament in a couple of weeks, and I want Brewmaster dominance!! ;-)

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3 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Brewie? Strong? Someone had too much moonshine i think:D

I think the deal with Brewmaster is that if he is allowed to do his thing it feels hopeless playing against him. If you know what to expect and how to keep from playing into Brewmaster’s plan then he’s very manageable.

McMourning is probably wanting to get into close range with a few friends to get the devasting posion thing going which makes getting sucked into a drinking contest hard to avoid and Brewmaster’s thematic models aren’t quite as worried about posion as most other models are.

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The first times I faced him I voluntarily sent my models in to kill him and bail out the ones he had trapped in the aura and I was handed my ass on a platter. You need to realise that he sucks majorly if he doesn't have many models near him and that sending in more will never solve the problem. A single model that gets to go before him can hurt him badly so tricks for winning initiative or forcing something else to go before Brewie messes with him. He isn't a fan of being shot at either.

For a seasoned player he is a low-tier master but if you haven't learned his trick(s) he can feel almost impossibly good. 

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Some masters (and a good chunk of models) will wreck new players, that's the nature of this game. He's trying to learn ways to counter something he views as strong, for a way to let his friend play what he wants to.

That's a noble goal.

Please don't start muddying the discussion with vitriol about meta-balance, and be constructive and help the guy out instead ;)

Models with "stubborn" or natural defenses against willpower based attacks are also great against Brewmaster. I'm not an expert in Ressers, but you might want to look after moels with some of those special rules :)

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I don't think ressers have any Ruthless models but those are very effective against him.

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Hi, I play brewmaster A LOT and I totally get what your friend is feeling, I’ve had a lot of people concede games because they FEEL like they can’t do anything.

Here’s what I hate to play against with brewmaster: if people just ignore him it’s extremely frustrating because brewmaster does nothing on his own, give him one model to play with or just make him waste his ap moving because getting a model fully drunk takes a couple ap. As for Wesley, usually brewmaster wants to go as early as possible so if you can kill wesley after he activates brewmaster looses a huge safety net. With the summoning him back, it’s a 0 action which means that drinking contest can’t be put up so take that chance to get your hits in, remember, brewmaster is only df 5 with almost nothing defensive. Brewmaster is very weak to shooting, any way you can hit him outside his bubble is a pain (unless he takes hide in the mud, good upgrade) but he hates casting even more. One thing that I can’t stand is ruthless, it just ruins a lot of his power. He’s also very strategy dependant, if he’s forced to spread out in something like ours or needs to kill poeple in executions you’ll find a very hard game ahead. 

To be frank tell your friend to remain vigilant, a big part of brewmasters game is actually crushing the opponents will and in tournaments, I play brewmaster in a way to make them hopeless and frustrated, that’s how he ACTUALLY wins. I’ve won more games by conceit than not with brewie not helped by the fact it’s usually peoples first time playing him. I encourage your mate to have another go with him because I love his flavour and his themeatic crew, good luck!

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I think Ressers tend to have a small disadvantage vs Brewmaster compared to many other factions, so in listbuilding it can create some strange situations.

First of all, the infamous Moon Shinobis will be happy to face the most common resser defense, which is hard to wound. Almost all undead ressers rely on it (or similar tricks). The faction relies a lot on that, and many models pay for it with low stats (4 df and 4 wp on rotten belles for example).

When facing Brewmaster, Wp will be lowered by the ammount of poison on your models, which can be a liability if you rely on it with models such as Rafkin. Naturally, it is not so terrible if your opponent is not attacking your willpower, which makes us look at another problem: the contest. It has a very short range, but will be a liability for the usually low stats of many ressers, and knowing ressers rely on melee models a lot, it can feel a bit problematic to avoid it. Also remember that ressers tend to have models with huge stayng power, which is nullfied by paralyze or the contest, which will not kill you but make you useless.

As people have said, the best solution is to fight from afar, not cluster a lot and have tricks to avoid the drinking contest area.

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45 minutes ago, aquenaton said:

I think Ressers tend to have a small disadvantage vs Brewmaster compared to many other factions, so in listbuilding it can create some strange situations.

First of all, the infamous Moon Shinobis will be happy to face the most common resser defense, which is hard to wound. Almost all undead ressers rely on it (or similar tricks). The faction relies a lot on that, and many models pay for it with low stats (4 df and 4 wp on rotten belles for example).

McMourning kills Moon Shinobis in second with Flesh Construct summoned on the top of this kill. Kirai kills them as well summoning Gaki. Moon Shinobis die so fast i hardly see Ressers having any problems with them. 

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4 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Sebastian and Assura rotten are good for Dog Factory,

Dogs/ Rafkin charge 1ap models with poison.

minimum 2 bells to start pulling enemy models to you, and in few corner cases your models out of bubble.

3x little gassers to spread poison without attacking and be a pain. 

Chiaki for condi removal

 

Sit back with McM and expunge key pieces t1 and t2 before going in there. If you want to annoy your opponent take between 3-6 guild autopsies 1-2 bells and grave spirit for reactivate shtick

I've learned from this! 

I'm mostly a Brewmaster player, and I always take two Akaname against ressers. Means I can control where the poison is, taking it from my models or the enemy, and vomiting it onto other targets. Very effective.

McMourning is much less trouble now.

 

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The first times I faced him I voluntarily sent my models in to kill him and bail out the ones he had trapped in the aura and I was handed my ass on a platter. You need to realise that he sucks majorly if he doesn't have many models near him and that sending in more will never solve the problem. A single model that gets to go before him can hurt him badly so tricks for winning initiative or forcing something else to go before Brewie messes with him. He isn't a fan of being shot at either.

For a seasoned player he is a low-tier master but if you haven't learned his trick(s) he can feel almost impossibly good. 

Once you've learned to use Brewmaster properly, you never ever rely on the drinking bubble. Some games I barely use it at all! If it works, it's a bonus.
There's a reason it's only a zero AP action.

It's all about Swill. Swill swill swill swill swill. So good there's pretty much no point in taking upgrades that compete with swill for Brewmaster's AP.

Then it doesn't matter if he goes first or not, and it doesn't matter if he's at range. In fact, he'd prefer to be at range. I don't think he's low tier at all, I just think many people don't understand him. He's not the strongest, just don't underestimate him. 

 

1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

McMourning kills Moon Shinobis in second with Flesh Construct summoned on the top of this kill. Kirai kills them as well summoning Gaki. Moon Shinobis die so fast i hardly see Ressers having any problems with them. 

This is mostly true. Although, you shouldn't be sending in unsupported Moon Shinobis unless they need to die for VP.
Moon Shinobis with swill though can be a great way to tie up many enemy models and waste AP. Once had a double swilled Moon Shinobi hold up 4 enemy models a full 2 turns. And now they are only 5SS :D

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

There's a reason it's only a zero AP action.

Zero actions can be more powerful than 1AP actions since they are limited to only being used once an activation and most thing that allow a model to take out of activation actions don’t allow zero actions to be taken.

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Anything that allows you to move your models without that model needing to declare an action is great to have when facong Brewmaster. Remember your Rotten Belles can use their Lure to get firendly models out of trouble.

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3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Zero actions can be more powerful than 1AP actions since they are limited to only being used once an activation and most thing that allow a model to take out of activation actions don’t allow zero actions to be taken.

True.

My point remains though - the zero action for Brewmaster can be a trap, for the Brewmaster player! I never rely on it. Sometimes I've had it go off maybe once in a game at most, but I've still won the game because I don't care about it.

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3 hours ago, DanteJH said:

Hi, I play brewmaster A LOT and I totally get what your friend is feeling, I’ve had a lot of people concede games because they FEEL like they can’t do anything.

Here’s what I hate to play against with brewmaster: if people just ignore him it’s extremely frustrating because brewmaster does nothing on his own, give him one model to play with or just make him waste his ap moving because getting a model fully drunk takes a couple ap. As for Wesley, usually brewmaster wants to go as early as possible so if you can kill wesley after he activates brewmaster looses a huge safety net. With the summoning him back, it’s a 0 action which means that drinking contest can’t be put up so take that chance to get your hits in, remember, brewmaster is only df 5 with almost nothing defensive. Brewmaster is very weak to shooting, any way you can hit him outside his bubble is a pain (unless he takes hide in the mud, good upgrade) but he hates casting even more. One thing that I can’t stand is ruthless, it just ruins a lot of his power. He’s also very strategy dependant, if he’s forced to spread out in something like ours or needs to kill poeple in executions you’ll find a very hard game ahead. 

To be frank tell your friend to remain vigilant, a big part of brewmasters game is actually crushing the opponents will and in tournaments, I play brewmaster in a way to make them hopeless and frustrated, that’s how he ACTUALLY wins. I’ve won more games by conceit than not with brewie not helped by the fact it’s usually peoples first time playing him. I encourage your mate to have another go with him because I love his flavour and his themeatic crew, good luck!

What do you usually play with him?

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@Cadaver_Junkie

Nice to hear from an, actual Brewie player! It's been a while since I faced him so I haven't seen all his latest tricks but it looked like he had a similar thing going even after wave 5.

It still looks to me like Brewie is vulnerable if he doesn't go first in a turn and wants people in his aura rather than outside. Swill is until the end of the turn so any activation before Brewmaster will not be at negatives. I'd be interested to hear what sort of workaround you have that's so effective that you're not stressed about losing initiative.

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I think this is why Brewmaster is not being given too many adjustments. He's not the strongest master, but when he's doing well, the opponent doesn't really get to play. HE might need a Lucius style review to be competitive AND fun :}

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21 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I think this is why Brewmaster is not being given too many adjustments. He's not the strongest master, but when he's doing well, the opponent doesn't really get to play. HE might need a Lucius style review to be competitive AND fun :}

They got errata at the same time, this is the reviewed model. :D 

He is oppressive if you don't have condition removal but so are a lot of crews I think. If the opponent can remove Swill I'm not sure he's that horrible to face. 

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