Warning: Disease spredding through Arcanist ranks!

[Orboros]

I don't know if there was already a thread about this but there is a weird habit i spotted when watching the Arcanist guys in my lgs play..

If they play Ramos, they pick spiders.

If they pick Raspy, they pick december stuff.

If they play Marcus, they play only beasts.

List goes on.

In my opinion, lists like that tend to be weaker than others because they don't use the full potential of the faction.

I see myself as beeing infected aswell..

I realised it when i opened Book 3 for the first time. When reading the ressers section i was thinking about the new Minions and how they would affect the ''general'' faction. But when i read the Arcanists section i was like:'' Ahh this will be nice for Marcus'' or ''Hey how usefull this fella would be for Ramos''

I want to get rid of that mindset and i'm sure i'm not the only one experiencing this.

Where is this fatal desease comming from and how to get rid of it?

[Only Perfect]

First off I like the thread!

I think that this is more of a problem for arcanists than anyone, b/c fluff wise they are super diverse. Sure the outcasts are but their masters are designed to work with......well, what they work with. The arcanists on the other hand can find some pretty cool synergies else where in the faction, but they come at the cost of a "fluffy" list.

I too fall into the same trap. Mainly because I play Marcus and take very few arcanist models to begin with but yeah totally guilty. This is soon to change however with the new box set as most of the box has multiple uses.

[Dezzo]

i am open to ideas to improve Rasputina's crew aside from the usual EoP, Silent One, Snow Storm, Desperate Merc(s) and Ice Gamin.

[Nephalumps]

I've noticed this same phenomenon, though I don't think its an Arcanist only thing. I think its a question of "theme," and how strongly those themes are reinforced.

First off: all of the Book 2 Masters have a strong internal theme, and support it very, very well - the Masters play off the Minions, vice versa, and the Minions even play off each other very well!

Looking at those crews, you kind of expect the Book 1 Masters to work in a similar fashion, but that's just not the case. There are definitely some synergies with bringing models of that associated Master's "type", but you're usually not losing out on any significant Master-Minion synergy if you diversify within the other Minion types available to Arcanists.

Synergy is very important in crew construction. At the very least, a synergistic crew gives you more/better options than a non-synergistic crew. I know that with Marcus that bringing beasts is great, but few of his "go to" tactics require (or even suggest) that my crew be "all beasts."

In the absence of strong synergy, you then need to seek out solid Minion choices that fit with your game plan. Arcanists have access to a number of very solid, interesting Minions, and there's no reason not to take them if your crew can benefit from their set of abilities.

Some crews benefit strongly from staying "in theme," and others can do it without any significant drawbacks (ex. Lilith and all Nephalim.) However, for those that don't have an especially strong set of "in theme" models (which is a fair number of Book 1 Masters,) its definitely a good idea to keep an open mind, and be willing to try out all available options.

For this reason, I will be buying the hell out of a Kaeris box and the Mechanical Rider this week.

[LoboStele]

Well, to be fair, I think it has mostly to do with crew synergy. The Arcanists seem to have more specific synergy than any of the other factions.

I mean....honestly....why would you play Steampunk Arachnids with Marcus? When they die, they wouldn't even drop their Scrap Counters because he's not a Scavenger. You can't heal them, you can't summon more, you can give them a Df buff with Arcing Screen...

Same thing with any of the Arcanist crews, really. Running Beast with Ramos is just silly. Now, Raspy probably has the most variation available, because she can make stuff Frozen Heart, which then gives easier access to Ice Mirror or other stuff. Even still, she just generally works better with the December themed pieces to start with.

I don't think it has too much to do with a particular mindset of Arcanist players. I think it has more to do with how the faction is designed in general.

I'm certainly open to some more ideas, but IMO, I haven't seen too much yet that does well with cross-Master crew builds within the Arcanists. Perhaps the Mechanical Rider is one of the few, as it makes a nice beatstick model for either Raspy or Marcus, especially if you give it Frozen Heart, or turn it into a Beast with a Raptor.

[Dracomax]

I don't know about Marcus or Rasputina, but with Ramos, it generally just makes sense to go with spiders, or at least other constructs. Pretty much everything he does, with the exception of a damaging spell and his attacks are based on the idea that he's doing them to constructs, and his signiture ability is to produces spiders.

If I have a choice between a spider and an ice gamin, or a moleman, I'll take the spider most of the time, because it can combine with other spiders, be detonated, and produce scrap to heal another construct.

Theme is also a huge part of it; I picked Ramos because I wanted to play a steampunk master. Bringing a lot of beast along would not only be a generally inferior option tactically, it would go against the them and flavor of what I like about Ramos.

[Nephalumps]

I'm certainly open to some more ideas, but IMO, I haven't seen too much yet that does well with cross-Master crew builds within the Arcanists. Perhaps the Mechanical Rider is one of the few, as it makes a nice beatstick model for either Raspy or Marcus, especially if you give it Frozen Heart, or turn it into a Beast with a Raptor.

I can't speak too much for Rasputina, but here's what you lose out on with non-Beasts in a Marcus crew:

1. No Howl benefits (point of fact, you can actually debuff your models!)
   
2. Not a valid "Defend Me!" target.
   
3. Cannot be healed by Primal Flame.
   
4. Not able to be affected by Pack Leader.
   

Going down the list:

• This is the worst one, in my experience. Howl is a pretty big bubble, and if you end up wanting to use it to debuff the enemy/buff your models, you're likely to catching your non-Beasts in the bubble. This makes them more vulnerable to Wp based effects, which is usually the exact opposite of what you were trying to achieve.
  
• I find that "Defend Me!" is something you plan for, starting from crew construction. Typically I'll bring a model as a dedicated "Defend Me!" target if I think I'll need the insurance against shooting/charges. Otherwise, Marcus' Df (w/Hare) and cover usually keeps him safe enough from ranged attacks, and you can space yourself out from charges fairly easily.
  
• Between needing a 7:rams+, it's terrible range, the general softness of Beast models, and the fact that Marcus is usually tearing across the table, I find that he rarely ends up casting Primal Flame at all.
  
• I very, very rarely end up using Marcus' companion ability, due to him eating up all his (0) actions for either debuffing the enemy into uselessness with Feral/Stare Down, or (0) charges/attacks followed by more attacks or running like a sissy.
  

So, all things considered, you don't lose out on that much by taking one or two non-Beast models with Marcus, especially if they provide interesting diversity.

Unfortunately, most of the Book 1 Minions suffer from not being terribly good, so I wouldn't branch out there. However, some of the Book 2 Minions are very compelling:

• The Mechanical Rider is a fast, hard hitting model for it's cost that's also Immune to Influence (so you don't need to worry about Howl catching it.)
  
• The Gunsmith and the Convict Gunslinger both provide effective ranged attacks, which is a really nice way to diversify Marcus' usually "all melee" crew.
  
• The Soulstone Miner is a solid melee model for its cost, and though it'll eat into Marcus' precious SS cache, I think it could be worth it to have it pop out, Overdrive, and blitz someone. Or, you could sit it back and replenish Marcus' cache when he inevitably ends up eating into it (though I think this is a much less effective use of the model.)
  
• Unrocky may or may not have mentioned Kaeris' effectiveness in his Marcus thread. She's not a Minion, per se, but she does fall into the "non Beast" category.
  

I definitely advocate taking a majority of Beasts with Marcus (there are plenty of very solid Beasts, though most are non-Arcanist.)

At the same time, there's no great reason to go "Beast only" with him. Splashing in one or two of the above models is a great way to mix things up, and give you flexibility against crews that might otherwise give you a lot of grief.

[ukrocky]

I've noticed this too but have dodged the disease thus far. When I run Marcus is obviously beneficial to bring some beasts but for anyone that's seen my thread, a fair few of my lists include no beasts, or very few for that matter.

[sephiroa]

well rasputina needs models with frozen heart, to cast through,

but those could be gamins (and when you are avatar you don't need them acctually)

but using spiders, myranda, and beast on raspy? well, myranda + raptors in raspy crew can be effective

[Mentat_Canis]

I really think colette gets hit by this disease more then most because of how she plays as a master. This is because you have 23 points of awesome that are showgirls and most people also bring a showgirl Mannequin combo.

I do not have ramos so can not comment on him.

With Marcus he works so good with beasts from other factions which is why I tend to play all beast because I like Silirid, waldgiest, Night Terrors, Shikome and soon rouge necromancy. I want to start bringing either Mechanical Rider or Gunsmith just to add range or fast armor.

With Me raspy's crew almost always needs 1 Ice Gamin because there 0 is stupid good, and a silent one because north wind is well also stupid good along with perfect mirror. Other then that bring what you want, I have found the Tiger has always worked great with her and I think the new Blessed will take my tigers place in that crew. I think other armor targets work very well with her, Myranda can also be great with her.

[CannonFodder]

I think the Kaeris Box will bring some mixing in.

Ramos with his totem and 1 swarm should be sufficient for him to work off of, then bring in Gunsmiths, and possibly Kaeris. Don't forget Fire Gamin are constructs also.

Raspy if you are not bringing in Snow storm can easily run off non-December stuff.

I admin Marcus will probably stick to beast but he is designed t pull from all factions.

Colette is fairly locked,

[Dumb Luck]

Solution: use a Duet in every list.

[edonil]

Once Kaeris comes out, I intend to run a Fire and Ice list...even if I'm not running Raspy, I'd prefer to use Fire Gamin to Ice Gamin.

[Issalbotproto]

I am a victum of Marcus Beast lists... I've slowly decided to expand into December stuff however, and I will also be playing with gunsmiths a lot because they're just so epic!

Edited October 18, 2011 by Issalbotproto

[Odin1981]

Solution: use a Duet in every list.

SHHHH! Don't let everyone know. The last thing I want is to have every third thread on this forumn turn into a cuddle duet thread. :hidingpuppet

[Dracomax]

I do think that aRamos and Kaeris are going to completely change the way Ramos is played. I could see bringing some non constructs with Ramos to support once he goes beatstick, and starts summoning large arachnids.

[HeavensWrath]

I think as has been said that a lot of the arcanists masters have all or most of their abilities built around supporting their theme type minions. Some to less an extent than others, but still more than any other faction imo. Raspy can in fact get away with running no models with frozen heart at all, but Ramos is essentially shooting himself in the foot taking nonconstruct minions. He basically loses the use of all his support spells in doing so. When you play a support master and gimp your ability to interact with your crew, you kind of kill the whole point of playing them in the first place.

[SteamHammer]

I don't see this as a disease but a sign of hope. The other faction players might be out there statistically working out which models do the most damage/control/etc whereas we Arcanists take pride in our fluff and choose gangs that look nice together.

<---Insert heroic speech here.

[HeaDHunTeRfs]

I don't see this as a disease but a sign of hope. The other faction players might be out there statistically working out which models do the most damage/control/etc whereas we Arcanists take pride in our fluff and choose gangs that look nice together.

<---Insert heroic speech here.

I totally agree with this post! I love the fluff and I try to win even though I play fluffy lists

[CannonFodder]

Here are some ideas you can try with Ramos & Rapsy.

Miranda & Librarian: Use Miranda to turn into a raptor, turn master into Beast. The if you can use librarian to boost MIranda so she geta on casting. making it so she should be able to use furious casting without burning out half you hand. The biggest problem is is this is very expensive. But if played right can be devastating.

Kaeris & 2 Fire gamin: enough Synergy without taking up you entire crew, leaving enough support for normal support.

2 Gun smiths: Nice Range not too expensive, max Spec forces on Raspy.

Duet: nuff said

[JuJubee]

I think the archanists lend themselves to more fluff based lists where as when i play my ressers i may only take 1 or 2 fluff based models. It really comes down to the number of model types ie showgirls, constructs, beasts, frozen heart and with ressers its undead or spirit.

[Backno]

The fact the Arcanists tend to run more fluffy lists is one of the reasons I love them. There is less min/maxing going on, making the masters more interesting (for me at least).

[MrNybbles]

I disagree about the general idea that Colette is locked into using only Showgirls. Don't get me wrong, you will almost always want at least Cassandra or Coryphee Duet for the mobility, but you have options.

[steampunk Arachnid Swarm]

These guys are great for indoor games because they have lots of cover and can Paralyze enemy models with the Overwhelm Trigger. Also, Pass Through is great for getting around models occluding doorways and hallways. Performers can give Paralyzed models a Poison Gift. Best of all, unlike the Performer's Siren Call, this works on models with Immune to Influence and is easier to do than Wp duels with Stubborn models.

[Joss & Johan]

This plays off of the M&SU Member synergy. Again, I like to have a lot of cover or an inside location to keep them from getting killed. They are useful for when I want to deal heavy damage. They become a lot more mobile when Cassandra gets into melee, a Mannequin gives Colette masks, and then buries Joss, Johan, and maybe another model like a Union Miner, and uses Illusionist to switch places with Cassandra.

Johan + another M&SU Member within 3" = Solidarity!

Colette's Dissappearing Act + additional Masks on Ca = Guaranteed Slight of Hand trigger (which gives you your Soulstone back).

[union Miners]

They have the Special Forces (M&SU Asset) limitations. Use their File False Claim action and then move Colette into melee. During the closing phase you will then be able to place them near an M&SU Member (like Colette).

[soulstone Miners]

Another M&SU Asset that works well with Colette. If you simply must kill a minion with Armor then one of these guys are usually enough. Move him, bury him with Tunneling, then when you move the marker during the Closing Phase make sure you also hum that song from the movie Jaws, you know the one. Place him next to the target when you can and do 4 Melee attacks on it. He also gives you a good use for high Crow cards.

[Kaeris]

I so want her box set!

With Colette & Kaeris you could have something like Cassandra, Fire Gamin, and Union Miners.

Kaeris' Overheat + Mechanical Doves = Burning Counters on enemy models.

Kaeris' Immolate + Colette's Disappearing Act = Enemy models placed in Immolate Markers during the Closing Phase. Immolate Markers don't go away.

Kaeris' Flame Wall + Colette's Disappearing Act = Modes placed inside Flame Walls. (Disappearing Act returns models at the Start Closing Phase, the Flame Wall goes away at the End Closing Phase.

Kaeris' Resource Managment + Union Miner's Union Benefits = Alternative healing.

[Arcane Effigy]

The Special Forces (Doll) characteristic kills Colette's M&SU Asset synergies and he also eliminates the Mechanical Doves as options, but an Avatar Colette with Arcane Reservoir and +1 AP for casting and channeling this guy looks interesting.

[----]

There are other good models like the Gunsmith and Convict Gunslinger, but this is due to them being good models on their own and not any sort of Synergy with Colette in a Scrap.

[brdparker]

Excellent points MrNybbles. Likewise, I generally take Marcus with a mix of beasties and at least 1 non, though I also take a raptor to enrage it initially. Getting Myranda to Shikome-form, nimbling up to a ledge and launching Cassandra's, Silent One's, or Kaeris' spells (even the once per activation ones!) can be downright brutal, especially since the beasts have an almost complete lack of blast damage.

[tadaka]

For some more out of the norm fun give ss miners to rasputina. Give them 2 extra armor and frozen heart. Put them in defensive stance and bury them each turn. Makes one hell of a nasty trick for slaughter. Armor 3 and +2 for df flips. Nice thing is when you want to blast off them you can take the lowest of the 3 cards and being as her max damage us 4 they take only 1 damage and you can flop out the blast markers