Odin1981

It can't be bad for entry which it isn't. But balance more often then not should be tuned in to high end skilled players. They are the ones who find combo's and such and discover kinks that need to be worked out. However entry level to intermediate level players need to look for options and use them what often kills them is they get hit by something and just give up. Or do not seek to minimize a capability that there opponent has. Most players of these levels think the game works away it doesn't and when someone pilots a list that imposes a different aspect and wrecks there list they do not adjust. I know you like to play fluff crews and don't like dipping outside of the box(s) but the thing with those two models is the protection from Francisco and the + to damage for Papa that makes them so popular. For Francisco I think it is most often wrong to put his +2+2 on a master unless it is vital to tank 1/2 or more of a opponents crew list. In the beta I got more out of him by buffing other henchmen 9 times out of 10. A 2 man tag team of him and Samael is a thing of beauty to behold on the table from a kill team perspective even more so with obey user models to increase there ap (for free focuses or walks to get into range mostly). I don't know what his base def is off the top of my head but if it is 5 Samael becomes a force at def 7 if not 6 ain't terrible either. For Papa the DM is obviously for obey protection so he doesn't destroy your own crew but if you aren't facing against it you can leave the DM out of the list to save points. He is probably just too good at damage efficiency given the nature of the game nowadays. By providing a + to damage he really ups the reliability of being able to 2 shot or 3 shot 6-8 wound models and the rapid fire brings down if all 3 hit just about everything that isn't armor 2+ or have spend ss to heal. Your hitting models have to put in work in this edition and quickly due to 5 turns so he really is a strong option to include for a kill team of models while your other stuff goes and gets VP to win. Is it possible to turn 1 obey something know if your (papa) haven't left your deployment zone nowadays mate? Cause that is the only thing I could see that could get him before he goes in the box?

The big dual clawed man is often misunderstood in how he is used effectively. Most people see his damage track and think he is a offensive piece. Where in reality he is a counter punch piece. I haven't played this game in ages so i am not hip to current trends/ things that cool kids play. But with him in general he is a piece you take to support the ranged offensive component of guild lists so that when stuff gets to jamming up your ranged components he is the model used to unjam them. He in most of my experience is best used with Dita and Lucious. They have pieces and/or abilities that allow him to walk into combat and then activate and swing for the fences to clear stuff up. Because of his unfortunate movement stat he doesn't do well as a offensive missile that you can fire and forget about. They allow him the freedom (his ap) to get where you need him to kill whatever got threw your offensive package of characters that pew pew pew really well.

Familiarity with models and experiance helps but don't fret over that stuff just play games, get exp in the game system, find a particular playstyle that works for you, and then start to tweak with stuff to see if you get good results with stuff. The more you play and use stuff the better you get. It also can help if you try to tweak things to work in your favor given certain factors. Like yesterday for me I played a game first one in awhile. I purposely took stuff I wasn't use too to figure some things out. My list was kinda flawed given the models I had on hand but it let me see if my theoryfaux was correct in practice. I learned that changes needed to be made but I got experiance using stuff to see if synergies and combo's would work out. I took a Lucius list with full stones and the purchased loyalties upgrade, doppleganger, a beckoner, a performer, a austringer, and papa loco, a lawyer and tannen. Didn't need full stones and I didn't really see the benefit of papa in the list. Also I was lacking a actual heavy hitter which was one of the main reasons I got stomped. But the matchup might not have been good for me as well. Because of the ability when Lucius walks you can make something take a (1) action papa wasn't needed because a focus on the austringer in range of the lawyer for a + to the morale duel to get the ability was more than fine in itself. I wanted to try the performer cause it looked cool with its abilities and is a merc this edition. Seemed alright but my list could be refined better. Tannen was ok but I could see him getting changed. His effects weren't to prominent on the game. Also I was specifically trying to go too combo centric and it effected the lists performance in my eyes. Loved the doppleganger but I need more exp with that piece don't believe I got the most out of her in the game.

Yeah that is his full first name in the engrish prints.

Perdita isn't stupid she is smart . I would say that would be way overkill on just one asset though. Do the time honored fashion of the Ortegas and split up into 2-3 kill teams and wreck more than one model each turn obviously . I personally would drop sammy for Johnny Cash (because he is the damn man in black) or a latigo guy and a watcher to have a scenario presence but I like lists that have generalist components in them. Depending on positioning and board table you could overlap Granny or Dita to have support coverage for the another team if something bad happens.

The thing with him is like dita he has a use against cover without needing a watcher shot to relieve him of the benefit of cover against def 4-5. Against higher defense 6+ he is better off getting support from a watcher shot. But what he really gains from inclusion in a Perdita crew is out of activation movement so that his activation ap are always all live. With a shackled, or obey for witch hunt, or abuela x move he gets to reposition for free from his ap so that he can unload a rapid fire into said target. Also depending on positioning without moving up all by his lonesome and out into the wind he can threaten a fair bit of area with modest turn 1 movement without exposing himself to a unfair amount of attacks. Also in a synergy chain is with francisco he becomes something fierce. If Francisco needs a different best friend forever making Sammy def 6-7 wp 7-8 (don't know his exact stats off hand have to pick up a card set today) then you essentially from a damage perspective make two ditas in one list. Two models with def 7 and nice damage profiles are very nice, he has rapid fire naturally so no need for a rapid fire upgrade only needs witch hunt and he is golden. Plus two defense 7 models with access to healing flips stays around for awhile outside of red joker damage considerations. Plus in a purely high value impact duo they aren't a combo that you can just send one model after to take care off. Also a suicide stalker 4-6" in front of Sam take one for the team eating a charge/ap on him preventing them from getting full ap on a good model then turns him on full throttle for his activation damage wise. Or in the best case scenario you get activation at the start of the turn and stalker is in range to charge said model tying them up and doing some damage and burning on said piece so you hold said model in place so it can't get a charge to maximise its movement in addition to its ap usuage via attacks..

Ah ok thank you so much for the info. Good to hear you have been doing well also. Was weird perusing threw today seeing so many unknown posters.

Sup who is this in real world life? Been to long not really savvy to internet handles.

Why so mean bro ?

Hey man how ya been? Need someone to teach me about this forums multi quote use cause the next couple replies are gonna suck cause I'm computer illiterate.

Ah ok sup man. Drop me a pm about Portland then to catch up. Don't want to clog the thread up with off topic stuff .

Do you play with the cheated fates group Joe runs in Wixxum? Probably heading out there tommorow. I thought I saw you in another thread say you are from Michigan.

Yeah been around 3-4 months or so. I saw Dgraz in some titles. Our there still any other "oldies" around (say like jonas or one who fell types?). Edit: Nevermind I'm dumb. Been close to 15 months.

Been looking threw the forums for a bit this afternoon (no work today). And he seems rather forgotten about in these parts. But he is a great model that gets better if you take 1-2 stalkers with him. And that is a fairly cheap package to include into whatever combo of models you like. He is probably the best at damage per point spent in the guild faction. And he can be thrown into a dita list for great effect. He fits the theme with a Sonnia crew. And isn't half bad with J. I don't play hoff so I can't comment much on him. And I'm from the old days of 1E so Mcmourning will always be a filthy resser in my eyes.

You make sure samuel is within 6" of her when you finish her activation.

Perdita has the best out of activation movements in the current game. Her using obey and her start of activation ability, her totem using shackled/ or obey. She is still a all rounder. She can do a little bit of everything. Her crews will have cheap models but say you are playing at 50ss limit will more than likely have 4-5 minions/henchmen that add up to around 35 ss or so. She makes Samuel a dream crusher. With the movement tricks of hers plus a obey for witch hunt on x target followed by a companion activation of him to rapid fire their is very little that will survive him. She makes him very strong because she shores up his weakness of low mobility. Ortega's as a whole are more a combo crew. You take whatever ortega's you like and keep two models (one ortega, one other or sometimes two ortega's) close together to companion off each other and focus fire down stuff. The cheap non ortega models you bring (stalkers or dogs or whatever) our mainly the stuff that will do the scheme stuff while your kill teams clear room for them or threaten "dead zones" that if a enemy puts a model in x" those models kill them.

In reply to ender's huge post. 1st paragraph replies: I don't own the book. So for the first part of what you are talking about I'm going to ignore it as I have no way of looking threw upgrades of other masters I don't own/ ever used. The last paragraph of that specific part of your long post in my eyes is wrong and now I will explain why: First and second turn you move a meat shield (high wound defensive tank model say the peacekeeper and x) and another model to a section of the board (say a area that they have to go to to complete a scheme) for the purposes of this discussion we will say somewhere around mid board you leave these two models with separation between them to fit lady j threw on her activation to charge a target and be in range of the second target when the first one is killed. The targets have to be high value enough to warrant your opponent moving key pieces in after them. Your opponent moves into them to remove them and be able to score thus creating a bottleneck of high value targets for lady j to warrant commit into them (say master x, and a enforcer). Then after they have moved in you begin the process of activating models needed to turn her up to power level 9000 (ie student, something to move papa into range to provide the + to damage always (oiran or judge in this specific instance) and get your prep work down to commit her in and take out those models that have moved forward). If said models are not dead yet (your come hither options). Your opponent can/may continue to commit forces to get them dead and continue the bunch up process. When you finish the charge up preparation you charge in with j. On the first charge swing you want to target the model with the most amount of wounds (say the master with 10-14 wounds) You hit and spend a ss to trigger onslaught with the first charge attack you do severe unless they have a defense high enough to tie your total to put you at a double -, you at worst will be at a straight flip so you cheat severe in or they spend ss's to ensure you are at a negative, potentially another for damage prevention (at this point on your initial swing you have spent 1 ss to their 2). You hit for 3 say worst case scenario and they more than likely prevent 1-2. The onslaught swing goes at this point if I remember correctly that a onslaught cannot trigger a onslaught you go for your free swing. Again they have to tie you or spend a ss to put it at a - flip. In addition to the ss for a damage prevention. You continue the 2 for 1 ss trade with each swing of the charge process. They will either just let you kill the master or continue trying to prolong the inevitable while you are making them expend 2 resources for every one of yours. If they do not tie or spend a ss (or two in the right corner case) on the "free swing" of every onslaught at worst a + damage flip to fish for a severe so you don't have to spend one from your hand (via papa's buff). With fast and j's 3rd ap for being a master you can continue to do this 4 more times. for the cost of 4 ss's in the worst case scenario if you don't flip a high enough (say 11 or better) of the required suit for the onslaught trigger. The max threat range with a properly positioned oiran in regards to max threat is 10"+lady j's charge. Granted you have to position the oiran and protect her right so normally with the proper first and secon turn set up to rush a section of the enemy you will normally get somewhere between 6-8" depending on angle of oiran in relation to the initial charge target without having to spend 1 ap on j moving around. The cost of adding in the above mentioned two models is irrelevant to the example. The strategy of the specific instance is based around getting to use the scenario on j probably twice a game tops. Basically a on again off again turn to turn basis. On the off again turn you can position a ranged model with distance of the student to assist off on that model. This scenario isn't new vik players have been doing this for years in version 1 (generally using hulk hogan or convict as the off again turns). Generally speaking however after the first push in with j you might not even need to do the set up again to toss her forward somewhere again. The momentem you gain from killing the master + 1 other or 2 enforcers or hench, enforcer in addition to having pushed j forward and taken 2 of the biggest threats to her safety out will pretty firmly tuck in tempo for the rest of the given game. From that point on you can probably just give assists out to ranged options from that point out killing targets of opportunity while you scrub models go get vp. I haven't played j since pt and won't play her again (lol haven't played malifaux since pt either). I don't think she is bad but dita and sonnia are more my cup of tea. The student/papa combo is really brutal with sonnia due to mainly after turn 1 she really doesn't have to move. Dita I believe is better suited with the enslaved but I think that it is a waste to try and charge her into to combat. But even in version 1 I have always been a more support based dita player. The only time I could see using her in melee would be a counter charge duty because somehow for whatever reason with all the obey's, shackles, and pushes from ortega's and mercs you can take I fail to see how a opponent will ever get to a model you have deemed important in a given matchup.

The vengeance upgrade wasn't a great sword damage flip it was a flat out + to damage in the playtests I was in (not the open ones). Because of this it was demonstrated why changes where made to when it went live. The vengeance upgrade also in a previous form allowed you a + with both swings because only the + of the greatsword itself was ignored so you would have a ss user could spend ss's on either the onslaught trigger for each specific ap swing or rams for a multi ram crit strike (whichever you felt would be better given on each individual ap). Even now lady j has the capability of a x" range deadzone. The x" is variable depending on if their is judge or a merc obey user (don't know if their is didn't skim over merc entry's in my perusal of the book when I did outside of student) you include in your list. The judge upgrade that allows you to cast a spell that moves a model combined with the student assist action gives you 4 swings at min damage 4 (I believe lady j still has a ram inbuilt into her sword?). Depending on upgrades taken you can swing 8 times with lady j (1 onslaught trigger for each ap swing). From a purely competitive standpoint outside of around 5 masters that are live currently (amongst all factions) the student is pretty much the defacto totem to take with just about every master atm. The only guild master I personally wouldn't take student with is dita due to the enslaved being able to shackle twice a turn if properly positioned for a set up turn or a shackle plus a obey. ---------- Post added at 04:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ---------- I forgot to add potentially to the deadzone including a lure as well for dead zone with lady j. But between judge or a lure user (whichever has the highest threat extension) or if you double dipped both plus a student as your second merc option (the merc lure if I remember correctly would be from the showgirl merc).

During the closed playtests it was shown that the upgrade with a + couldn't go live as a always active ability. With that the in built + on non charge, plus a student of conflict giving fast she could take down anything in the game that wasn't impossible to wound (and in the worst case against impossible to wound you would still have a good shot depending on what you flipped damage wise and how many ss's you wanted to spend on rams for crit strike). Also if vengeance style had remained always active you would be able to reposete (however its spelled) at a straight flip (in theory you would be at a + flip but I'm not a rules lawyer so I will say a straight flip because I really don't want to get into a childish rules lawyer argument). I didn't buy the book but I have skimmed a friend at a lgs before so I can't say if she has a wide variety of upgrades to take but in the closed tests their really was only one combo that was worth taking (granted in the closed tests you where purposely trying to break/exploit things). The reason you would take the + trigger now would be if you where to play against whatever hard to wound 1 is called now. Because of the elimanation of ss's adding to totals the trigger woud give you 2 +'s (one from in built weapon profile other from upgrade) so as long as the defender doesn't tie your total you will have a + flip with her. I haven't posted much since the edition came out because I have been cooling down my emotions given the new direction the game has went. However in this thread it makes me feel good that one of my two favorite crews of the game their has been comments made of liking what has happened with them and feedback in other places seems that crew has been liked from the community. So I take pride and accomplishment in that while I no longer play the game anymore at least I gave good enough talking about x so that others may continue to enjoy them. Because of NDA I will not answer any specific questions about the closed communities so please don't ask about them. Hey Dgraz is papas buff back to the original version? If so please help spread the uses of it for many differant models that aren't nino please. All I have heard is oh nino is great with his battle buddy and their are at least off the top of my head 2 much better reciepients of papa's damage buff. For those lacking in experiance using papa the papa+nino tag team really is just a trap in my eyes. You get much more out of it with other models. LadyJ isn't one of my favorite crews I suck at playing her.

In my opinion jokers are terribly overvalued. Granted when they come up you are more likely to remember them. But putting all your hopes and dreams into a card(s) you will only see 1 in 27 times is bad. Initiative however is pretty clutch. Against a player of roughly equal skill unless it is turn 1 initiative can end a game. Granted I might be value it highly from 1.5 days but unless your opponent makes a mistake in activation order if you have the start off in the pivotal turn you can pretty much seal the deal right then and their. Strats and schemes vs opponents our the ones I like the most. In a tournament in 1.5 if I selected scemes second I would almost always pick a scheme to contested directly with the opponents (example they take hold out, I take breakthrew), granted that part of the game is gone now. ---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ---------- In my opinion jokers are terribly overvalued. Granted when they come up you are more likely to remember them. But putting all your hopes and dreams into a card(s) you will only see 1 in 27 times is bad. Initiative however is pretty clutch. Against a player of roughly equal skill unless it is turn 1 initiative can end a game. Granted I might be value it highly from 1.5 days but unless your opponent makes a mistake in activation order if you have the start off in the pivotal turn you can pretty much seal the deal right then and their. Strats and schemes vs opponents our the ones I like the most. In a tournament in 1.5 if I selected scemes second I would almost always pick a scheme to contested directly with the opponents (example they take hold out, I take breakthrew), granted that part of the game is gone now.

I classify them as cheap sacrificials. They generally don't hit above their weight class with effieciency anymore (no crit strike) but they are good at still drawing models above their weight class to kill them (costs more than they do). They give what kills them a burning counter when they die on their aura effect and that then gives sonnia/samuel clear los to them because of that. So often depending on how many you take in your list they can force uneven value trades so you can have a advantage in attrition throughout a game.

Awol you said : Fair enough, but given that witchlings and Sonnia are not terribly tanky, I think adding him in for that job is very viable. I've just not been overwhelmed with what Sam's done on the table in games I've played or witnessed, but will be giving him some more time to see if I missed something. In my eyes this leads to this problem below: The problem with that line of thought is this: to do his job he needs to get into place and have his full 2 ap to do what he does (ie offensive piece so kill/threaten areas and models). With sonnia specifically if you do not go out of witchunter theme he cannot do this. At the worst case scenario he needs the judge with the upgrade/spell to move him around out of activation to get him in place to deliever his 2 ap to a target worth burning down. Without dita/her totem/judge he struggles to do his job due to only getting into position in his own activation with at most 1 ap. And even then will struggle to threaten a 4-5 point 6 wound model with only 1 ap. So basically without a external means of positioning him you are limiting yourself to being "lucky" to do his job (ie flipping red joker on attack or damage flip and hoping your opponent doesn't flip/cheat a card in to put him at a - flip for damage. To get the most out of him you need a external piece to "preposition" him to be ready to pluck 2-3 ap (rapid fire) to threaten at a minimum 3 damage per ap spent on successful hits. If you do not do this he will fail at his damage dealer role. And if you notice on his card he doesn't have anything else on it other than doing damage.

I have had my best luck with sam in a perdita list. Granted I don't know if shackled (from the totem) will be friendly model or friendly family model but between shackled, and obey perdita gets sam in to where you need him to do his thing. Sam in the right conditions is one of the few guild models I'd say that it is worth having full amount of upgrades on. I would normally use him with witch hunt and the bullet of death upgrade (don't know the name think it started with a v). He was a great keep my master away from this area (his threat range model +1-2 obey's) due to not many masters would be long for the world with a rapid fire from him + 2 obeys one a walk getting him in range, second one to witch hunt target, then rapid fire away on said model.

I like what you both brought up Bill. Quite a bit of it is the reason I am taking a break from malifaux. I am still interested in how one of my crews that isn't out yet. But their isn't a allure of version 2 to me as well. The main problem to me is how most/almost all figures are stripped down. 6+ months down the road one everyone gets used to how their figures work I believe there is gonna be a drop off due to using x I will always do y every time you use a model. To me their is a distinct lack of depth that will keep people coming back to a crew/faction in the hobby.

Colette/ramos doesn't have fast, melee expert, flurry and potentially 40 ap to use.