GG2 / The road to the exit?

[Saviouress]

13 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Every top tier non-Explorer got a nerf. I think Dreamer is fine, just not a win-button any more. 

No model should appear in as high a percentage of crews as Serena. I'm glad she (and Phiona, and the Mech Rider, etc) got more situational. 

Sure Serena was over the top with her offensive capabilities. But she also is the only decent healing / condition removal option in Neverborn (exception being Bokur, but that's only Zoraida), which is why she was widely used.

To reduce her omnipresence they could've additionally brought up some models that rarely see play.

She doesn't feel like an 8 point model anymore.

 

The dreamer front card change is a bit rough because it's not just 50% of cards, the couple of cards you keep removed from turn 1 will get affected again turn 3.

So if you Lucid Dream 6 cards per turn

T1 6 > 3

T2 9 > 4

T3 10 > 5

T4 11 > 5

T5 11 > 5

Of course you keep some of these in your discard pile, but that ability seems a bit weird now.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Greatfrito said:

I also kind of liked the "snowballing deck" thing.  It was an interesting, unique, gimmick (edit: probably my favorite weird gimmick in 3e).  I wish it could have been handled/addressed in a less uh... disruptive? way.  Kept the concept intact better, or something.

I kinda wish the original had been that the cards removed were completely random but then the lesser dreams (not Stitched!) could've used them from the void. That would've given Alps and Daydreams a very clear and useful role and made it more of a balancing act. But I don't think that was something that would happen through errata - maybe M4e  

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, 74legion said:

HA. People who don't play the dreamer talk about a good nerf. And let's compare how many models it calls for now? Only three of them are 1 for the 11 mask card. The second is the Alp (dying very quickly). And super powerful Daydream. Ah yes, they are only called up in battle with the enemy.Which of course "increases survival". Another example is Kirai Ankoku-a stat for summoning more. Models for summoning 7 .Upgrade that allows you to find out the card and suit. So as not to burn the stones. Summon can be in 6ti from themselves and not in battle........ So we nerf DREAMER.

Hi, verified dreamer player here who's currently sitting in the top 10 in the world with the VWC. Dreamer is fine with the nerfs.

 

Also, did you just completely miss that Kirai did in fact get nerfed as well?

[Azkral]

I think vivid nightmares is clunky and I would have prefer a rework in Lucid Dreams instead.

Serena Lost the trigger to heal again the same objective, I think out of Dreamer I prefer Candy as a healer/beater when I dont need condition removal.

The hit to Focus buffs insidious Madnesses a bit, you cant concentrate to avoid distracted AND have a positive to damage. So their tactical action is useful.

I have to try GG2 to see if the Nerf to summoners makes them useful in this heavy interact strategies

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I kinda wish the original had been that the cards removed were completely random but then the lesser dreams (not Stitched!) could've used them from the void. That would've given Alps and Daydreams a very clear and useful role and made it more of a balancing act. But I don't think that was something that would happen through errata - maybe M4e  

Alps and Daydreams both have clear roles. Daydreams are support and having 1 jusy hang out in the void unless you need it to pop out isn't bad. Alps are massive PITA for the opponent. Either they ignore them and their models near the alps perform worse whilst the alps can generate pass tokens for you to ensure last activation for points while also distracting them(which is now buffed), or they punch which can do anything from having nice spikes from puncture, slowing the target or even generating a soulstone for dreamer.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just saw a Kirai and Dreamer game side by side.

Feels like Kirai was hit WAY harder. Having to get your hires to run the strategy is a lot easier for Dreamer than Kirai.

Dreamer still seems great, and so does Serena (although she isn't immortal anymore maybe. She still didn't die though xD).

[Adran]

Can I laugh that if you look in the Arcanist Forum, its all "colette has gone to oblivion, but Dreamer wasn't touched" and in Neverborn is "Dreamer is dead. But Kirai is still amazing". (With the response in here- Kirai is affected more than dreamer). 

Everything has changed. It may take some time to fully understand how this has changed your games, both in how you build and play your list, and what your opponent is going to do. You may not be able to do what you used to do, and you may have to change hiring and playstyle to get results. It will certainly take some time to understand and adjust.  Knee jerk reactions are fine, but if you go too strong on them, you may end up with egg on your face later when  it turns out the world didn't end... 

[Math Mathonwy]

41 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Alps and Daydreams both have clear roles. Daydreams are support and having 1 jusy hang out in the void unless you need it to pop out isn't bad. Alps are massive PITA for the opponent. Either they ignore them and their models near the alps perform worse whilst the alps can generate pass tokens for you to ensure last activation for points while also distracting them(which is now buffed), or they punch which can do anything from having nice spikes from puncture, slowing the target or even generating a soulstone for dreamer.

Ah, sorry - didn't mean that they didn't have a role currently but that they would've offered a clearly distinct approach compared to a more heavy-hitter focused Dreamer.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

Can I laugh that if you look in the Arcanist Forum, its all "colette has gone to oblivion, but Dreamer wasn't touched" and in Neverborn is "Dreamer is dead. But Kirai is still amazing". (With the response in here- Kirai is affected more than dreamer). 

In the resser forum, we say things like:

Quote

I think people may be overreacting. Usually these types of nerfs don't end up breaking the crew entirely. They just go from "best at everything" to "good at some things."

Once again proving Ressers are the best faction - you nerf us hard and we're still great 😜

But yeah, totally agree with your point. Things actually need to be tested quite a bit before we know how things stand. Not to mention we have an entirely altered strat & scheme pools.

[santaclaws01]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Once again proving Ressers are the best faction - you nerf us hard and we're still great 😜

Well most of the faction has come back from the ultimate nerf anyways, death. What's a stat reduction when compared to nonexistence?

[Regelridderen]

6 hours ago, 74legion said:

HA. People who don't play the dreamer talk about a good nerf. And let's compare how many models it calls for now? Only three of them are 1 for the 11 mask card. The second is the Alp (dying very quickly). And super powerful Daydream. Ah yes, they are only called up in battle with the enemy.Which of course "increases survival". Another example is Kirai Ankoku-a stat for summoning more. Models for summoning 7 .Upgrade that allows you to find out the card and suit. So as not to burn the stones. Summon can be in 6ti from themselves and not in battle........ So we nerf DREAMER.

The Alp is a pretty powerful model. When suddenly you're on a negative flip to damage Chompy (or anyone else), he becomes a lot better. The Alp might die easily, but if it takes the damage, it wastes your opponents AP and you aren't losing the models you've paid stones for. 

Kirai got a nerf herself. You won't be seeing her as a 2nd master in a loooooong time, and even if she didn't it wouldn't change the fact that Dreamer needed a hit with the nerf bat.

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Kirai did in fact get nerfed as well?

Offer than the general Summon Nerfing, she was only hit when taken as a second Master.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Things actually need to be tested quite a bit before we know how things stand. Not to mention we have an entirely altered strat & scheme pools.

I think the way that Dreamer Summons is going to be pretty useful for the spread out pools. He can Summon then someone somewhere else in the other side of the map can force the WP duel to bring the summon out.

 

I kinda like the nerf. I've got the old metal Dreamer and some Stitched together lying around from first Ed. Now I could play the crew without getting so scummy. Lol

 

 

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Once again proving Ressers are the best faction - you nerf us hard and we're still great 😜

 

It's easy for you bodysnatchers to take the high road, you've been playing on easy mode since M2e - the rest of us have to earn our wins 

[Ceodoc]

6 hours ago, Da Git said:

Lucid Dreams still snowballs, just at a much, much slower rate. let's say you Lucid dreams 6 cards every turn and don't bring any back with Stitched.

End of turn 1, 3 cards removed permanently from game, 3 discarded start of turn 2 (6 cards total)

End of turn 2, 4 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 3 (9 cards total), old was 12 cards gone forever

End of turn 3, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 4 (10 cards total), old was 18 cards gone forever

End of turn 4, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 6 discarded start of turn 5 (11 cards total), old was 24 cards gone forever

End of turn 5, 12 cards removed from game, old was 30 cards gone forever

Playing without a fifth of the deck after turn 1 is still very good (imo) and the keyword is still really good. And removing 6 cards a turn is moderate, you can really ramp it up if you wanted to take it to the extreme and remove like 10 cards a turn in the previous rendition.

If removing 10 cards a turn:

End of turn 1, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 2 (10 cards total)

End of turn 2, 7 cards removed permanently from game, 8 discarded start of turn 3 (15 cards total), old was 20 cards gone forever

End of turn 3, 8 cards removed permanently from game, 9 discarded start of turn 4 (17 cards total), old was 30 cards gone forever

End of turn 4, 9 cards removed permanently from game, 9 discarded start of turn 5 (18 cards total), old was 40 cards gone forever

End of turn 5, 19 cards effectively removed from game, old was 50 cards gone forever

 

You can't tell me that old version wasn't OP when you can go into turn 3 with very few to no weaks in the deck. Or potentially end the game with 2 cards in play.

Your math is way off, it assumes every Lucid Dream in old was flipping/removing weaks. Further, old Lucid did snowball but again that snowball meant you were flipping 'less' weaks to remove every turn.

Many threads in the NB section allude to 'when' is the right time to stop 'spamming'  lucid  dreams.

 

[Adran]

50 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Offer than the general Summon Nerfing, she was only hit when taken as a second Master.

 

Not quite. Ikiryo also now uses up one of her upgrades when summoned, and has the downsides of the vengeful spirit upgrade (and the upsides). How big that is, probbaly depends on how you play, but if you regularly summon Ikiryo then you now need to treat her as having 1 summon less than before. 

 

[Ceodoc]

17 hours ago, Vaylos said:

Euripides calls for all Neverborn to return to the Old Ways.  Euripides is our strongest master now.

 

😉

Unless ofc you have death beds in the pool.

Maybe that's it, NB on its death bed, because the Fae Queen won't be played into a death bed pool either.

[Ceodoc]

Thank god I'm at work so I get some time to reflect before I spew.

One question though Wyrd, NB, what are we, because, (and I cannot stand hearing this): we are NOT glass cannons anymore.

Just a FYI also, there is a typo on Serena's card errata.

Card reads: Horrific Reality, was it not supposed to be renamed to Mild Inconvenience?

Joking aside, you want me to stop using Serena, give us another decent versatile and whilst you are at, a scheme runner, because my opponents don't view any of my NB crews as cannons anymore.

[SEV]

I'm pretty sure than a Lucid Spam list will still work fine... Just hired the Stitch (which was a fine plan to begin with). The good news is that Elite Dreamer is not strictly suboptimal anymore. Who knows maybe Copelius will see competitive play (as a good Strat runner)...

Serena still seems a legit models, just not an auto include anymore since she's mostly support now (and you have to be a little more careful with her). Note that the trigger on the new melee attack is an other source of healing.

[74legion]

18 minutes ago, SEV said:

I'm pretty sure than a Lucid Spam list will still work fine... Just hired the Stitch (which was a fine plan to begin with). The good news is that Elite Dreamer is not strictly suboptimal anymore. Who knows maybe Copelius will see competitive play (as a good Strat runner)...

Serena still seems a legit models, just not an auto include anymore since she's mostly support now (and you have to be a little more careful with her). Note that the trigger on the new melee attack is an other source of healing.

Come on, tell me how great everything is. Start with Powerful upgrades. Come on, don't be coy.

Will Serena be on the table? of course. Or do we have a more resilient healer???? Point with your finger.

[SEV]

Just now, 74legion said:

Come on, tell me how great everything is. Start with Powerful upgrades. Come on, don't be coy.

If you ask : Neverborn is a good faction! AP is an amazing upgrade.

Focus Spamming with BBS is a little bit worse now, but we dodge most of the general errata (actually Nekima got a slight buff and Hinamatsu as well because of how distracted work).

As for the GG itself, we'll need to see. Loosing the brawly strats hurt... But turf war is good for us. 

Except for Dreamer, all the other faction are left untouched... And as I said, I'm sure Dreamer will still be competitive.

Everything will be fine and you will continue to enjoy the purple people in the year to come (is this comforting enoug for you) 😀.

[touchdown]

13 minutes ago, SEV said:

Except for Dreamer, all the other faction are left untouched... And as I said, I'm sure Dreamer will still be competitive.

The FAQ actually made Nekima slightly better

[Ceodoc]

Death beds is another nerf to Dreamer.

WW and bandersnatch movement now has a every faction counter if death beds is in.

[74legion]

25 minutes ago, SEV said:

If you ask : Neverborn is a good faction! AP is an amazing upgrade.

Focus Spamming with BBS is a little bit worse now, but we dodge most of the general errata (actually Nekima got a slight buff and Hinamatsu as well because of how distracted work).

As for the GG itself, we'll need to see. Loosing the brawly strats hurt... But turf war is good for us. 

Except for Dreamer, all the other faction are left untouched... And as I said, I'm sure Dreamer will still be competitive.

Everything will be fine and you will continue to enjoy the purple people in the year to come (is this comforting enoug for you) 😀.

If this upgrade is good on the Nephilim(minion only abil), is it good for the entire faction? Some lame logic.

Again, the Nephilim can focus. And besides them, you can also play with someone else? or that without them??? Don't answer me.

I asked about powerful upgrades ... And I'm sorry, but Whisper is MUCH better.

The problem is that the others are already at floor level.And now we are offered amputation instead of "medicine".

I used to have 5 Neverborn in my community now I'm 1......  I won't buy Wird anymore.

[SEV]

41 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

Death beds is another nerf to Dreamer.

WW and bandersnatch movement now has a every faction counter if death beds is in.

Why? The markers have to be on the enemy table half for the second d part, and it's not so easy to score if you don't control where they're drop.

I actually think the Spiders will be good at scoring DB!

[Kharnage]

Is the Whisper a really great upgrade? 

Heck yeah. It's the reason Seamus and Kirai are so reliable in their roles. 

But Inhuman Reflexes and Ancient Pact are upgrades I take in nearly every crew I hire in Neverborn. Ancient pact gives us the initiative in the vast majority of my games, not to mention the ignorance of the black is good enough to just put it on masters so their turn is more reliable. 

Is Eldritch Magic bad? Yeah, it's not picked a lot. But it doesn't typify our upgrades. 

Beyond that, while I was the highest ranked purveyor of Free Win lucid dreaming Dreamer, I am glad to see it go. It was brainless. I felt stupid playing anything else competitively. And now that the word "another" works again, Nekima has some missing teeth back in her kit and I can play what I want competitively, moreso because I'm not going to be drowning in bodies of summoned models who can still run the strategy. 

Is Serena bad now? I think so. She lost a bit too much tank for my tastes. But Serena does not the faction make. Frankly, for as hard as some factions got hit (basically anybody who played Yan Lo is weeping openly) Neverborn are doing all right.