GG2 / The road to the exit?

[74legion]

The Dreamer was ruined. Vivid Nightmares cancels the bonus action. Where others have useful options - we got an action that is canceled by 50% by the Master.Upgrades were not given. Bowman was crippled. There are no defensive techniques. Reduced HP. The price is the same. When is the genocide of the faction planned?

[Vaylos]

Euripides calls for all Neverborn to return to the Old Ways.

 

I don't think the Sarena nerf is as bad as all that. The changes made her less of a beater and even more of a support piece with some options. I think that some playing will show that she can still do an exceptional job of healing and supporting, just in a slightly different way now.

The Dreamer nerf was pretty harsh, but it's the general nerf to Summoners that has me really worried about the ability of Summoners in Faux moving forward, especially in GG2.

Vivid Nightmares seems fair as both the excessive amounts of Terrifying AND Lucid Dream made him incredibly powerful.

I think that his nerfs and the general nerfs to summoners were an over correction and that The Dreamer will need to sleep for a while, which means that we will all go through a period of experimentation to find out that Euripides is our strongest master now.

 

😉

[Nightwing]

I think Serena had it coming; she was a very efficient piece and despite her nerfs, I would still consider her a strong addition to any NB crew. But the multiple nerfs to Dreamer breaks my heart, because it targets both of his specialties (Summoning & Lucid Dreams).

[admiralvorkraft]

Every top tier non-Explorer got a nerf. I think Dreamer is fine, just not a win-button any more. 

No model should appear in as high a percentage of crews as Serena. I'm glad she (and Phiona, and the Mech Rider, etc) got more situational. 

[Regelridderen]

Sorry, what does Vivid Dreaming do?

[Greatfrito]

3 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Sorry, what does Vivid Dreaming do?

You discard half of the cards you've removed with Lucid Dreaming during each Start Phase.

[Regelridderen]

17 minutes ago, Greatfrito said:

You discard half of the cards you've removed with Lucid Dreaming during each Start Phase.

So basically reduced to being a Stitched Buff - as if they needed it 🐶

[Greatfrito]

Just now, Regelridderen said:

So basically reduced to being a Stitched Buff - as if they needed it 🐶

I get that it's supposed to keep Dreamer from snowballing via Lucid Dreaming.  It's slightly less awful than I thought initially, since the cards go into your discard on the next round.  Lucid still pulls cards out for at least one round, potentially more.

I really liked the "snowball" thing from a thematic perspective.  I wish they could have found a way to handle it that wasn't quite so draining.

[Thatguy]

It seems like everyone who isn't the Dreamer cane out pretty well. 

They FAQ'd "Another" again so Nekima can benefit more from Enraged by Insolence. The change to Focus might hurt though, since you can't stack too high even with Blasphemous Ritual.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

So basically reduced to being a Stitched Buff - as if they needed it 🐶

Dreamer can no longer summon Stitched, so overall they were massively nerfed

[Maniacal_cackle]

Thinking about it, back when I played Dreamer... I just played an elite crew that didn't focus on lucid dreams anyway, so I think he is probably still a strong crew.

The only reason you NEED stitched is to cycle back in severes, but now Dreamer does that anyway.

[Alcathous]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Thinking about it, back when I played Dreamer... I just played an elite crew that didn't focus on lucid dreams anyway, so I think he is probably still a strong crew.

He might even... be fair 😫

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

He might even... be fair 😫

Yeah, makes me half-regret selling my Dreamer crew, sounds super fun to play now!

[Trample]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, makes me half-regret selling my Dreamer crew, sounds super fun to play now!

I've usually regretted selling crews I don't like playing because inevitably they change and I want to play them again. 

[Regelridderen]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, makes me half-regret selling my Dreamer crew, sounds super fun to play now!

I agree. 

Serena took a big hit, but it only took her from Auto-include to viable - although she did get squishy. I’m gonna miss her focus-hit-severe6 into a melee 8” away, that was nasty, but subbing that for a healing trigger gives her a more consistent use as a  healer - not to mention a good use for rams in your hand.

I’m not a big fan of Vivid Nightmares, it simply gives the keyword an ineffectual ability. You thin your deck, but it keeps coming back - of course this only happens if the Dreamer is in play, but... The worst thing is, it doesn’t really address the main complaint of LD, which is still about the Stitched.

The summoning nerf was probably for the best - there’s already two options for summoning stitched - but it was a big hit to Dreamer’s role as a toolbox without anything to show for it compared to other summoners. It would have been nice if that loss had been shored up with a bonus to support his other crew - e.g. have Chompy heal 2, on Dreamers activation to show their bond (or be summonable like Ikiryo), or having a no-limit on summon upgrades, so you could ‘always’ top up with an incidental Daydream etc.

Playwise... He lost power, but I see less incentive to go minion (Lucid Dream) heavy, and more room to play around with your cool enforcers/henchmen. This was viable before, so I don’t see, why he shouldn’t be so now as well. His crew is still the coolest looking in the game, so he’ll still(always) be my go-to guy. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Regelridderen said:

I’m not a big fan of Vivid Nightmares, it simply gives the keyword an ineffectual ability. You thin your deck, but it keeps coming back - of course this only happens if the Dreamer is in play, but... The worst thing is, it doesn’t really address the main complaint of LD, which is still about the Stitched.

One thing to keep in mind is it puts it into your discard. So in effect Lucid Dreams buffs your deck for the next turn (and with a minor permanent buff). So I think on the table it'll actually still play out pretty well.

It will mainly affect those people who would turbo 20-30 cards out of their deck and never fail a duel for the rest of the game.

2 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

or be summonable like Ikiryo

This would make Dreamer so busted it'd be insane. The primary thing carrying Kirai's entire keyword is having Ikiryo be summonable, and I would argue Chompy is generally a stronger model. I'd love to see that in a redesign of Dreamer next edition, but I don't think they could balance it this edition without nerfing his entire keyword to make up for it (and then making sure all the synergies are keyword related so you still want to stay in keyword).

[Greatfrito]

My huge, totally meaningful, big-brained complaint about Vivid Nightmares is that it sounds awkward and tacked on and I'm only going to remember it because of how much everyone is discussing it.

I also kind of liked the "snowballing deck" thing.  It was an interesting, unique, gimmick (edit: probably my favorite weird gimmick in 3e).  I wish it could have been handled/addressed in a less uh... disruptive? way.  Kept the concept intact better, or something.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Greatfrito said:

My huge, totally meaningful, big-brained complaint about Vivid Nightmares is that it sounds awkward and tacked on and I'm only going to remember it because of how much everyone is discussing it.

I also kind of liked the "snowballing deck" thing.  It was an interesting, unique, gimmick (edit: probably my favorite weird gimmick in 3e).  I wish it could have been handled/addressed in a less uh... disruptive? way.  Kept the concept intact better, or something.

It is going to be a bit of admin as well if you have to count like 17 cards and then figure out 9 cards to return.

Definitely a clunky experience.

I think the concept will still feel surprisingly good, though - when you lucid dream, it still removes the cards for next turn (they end up in your discard pile, not in your deck).

[74legion]

HA. People who don't play the dreamer talk about a good nerf. And let's compare how many models it calls for now? Only three of them are 1 for the 11 mask card. The second is the Alp (dying very quickly). And super powerful Daydream. Ah yes, they are only called up in battle with the enemy.Which of course "increases survival". Another example is Kirai Ankoku-a stat for summoning more. Models for summoning 7 .Upgrade that allows you to find out the card and suit. So as not to burn the stones. Summon can be in 6ti from themselves and not in battle........ So we nerf DREAMER.

[fire5tone]

8 hours ago, Thatguy said:

It seems like everyone who isn't the Dreamer cane out pretty well.

Bayou familyman notwithstanding

[Greatfrito]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Definitely a clunky experience.

I think the concept will still feel surprisingly good, though - when you lucid dream, it still removes the cards for next turn (they end up in your discard pile, not in your deck).

 I'm sure it will play fine (and being able to consistently have ~1/5th or more of your deck out per round is still amazing), I'm just complaining about... rules aesthetics?  I don't even know how to describe what I'm complaining about.

Uh.  Let me put it another way...

"Reality manipulation" shown through an ever-increasing control of your own deck was a unique, clever, and slick idea.  Something that got the concept across really well, in a way that was pretty unique to Malifaux's mechanics.  I just kind of hate to see that given a kind of clunky limiter. 🤷‍♂️ Oh well.

 

  Edited to add:

2 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

Bayou familyman notwithstanding

I just started painting some of my Big Hat, too.  Feeling kind of bummed about the lower summoning stat and the general hit to summoning... Maybe I'll work on Apex instead.  Or the DUA/Umbra models I picked up "just to get the puppet sprue" in the last sale.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Greatfrito
I hate multi-posting

[Thatguy]

6 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

Bayou familyman notwithstanding

Haha I meant in Neverborn. Summoners in general got a pretty big nerf.

Poor Somer. Dreamer got the nerf bat, but but at least he's not stat 5. Lol

[Thatguy]

32 minutes ago, Greatfrito said:

wish it could have been handled/addressed in a less uh... disruptive? way.  Kept the concept intact better, or something.

Yeah it is a strange way to do it.

Like if you have Lord Chompy or Widow Weaver you can still Lucid Dream. 

[Da Git]

Lucid Dreams still snowballs, just at a much, much slower rate. let's say you Lucid dreams 6 cards every turn and don't bring any back with Stitched.

End of turn 1, 3 cards removed permanently from game, 3 discarded start of turn 2 (6 cards total)

End of turn 2, 4 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 3 (9 cards total), old was 12 cards gone forever

End of turn 3, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 4 (10 cards total), old was 18 cards gone forever

End of turn 4, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 6 discarded start of turn 5 (11 cards total), old was 24 cards gone forever

End of turn 5, 12 cards removed from game, old was 30 cards gone forever

Playing without a fifth of the deck after turn 1 is still very good (imo) and the keyword is still really good. And removing 6 cards a turn is moderate, you can really ramp it up if you wanted to take it to the extreme and remove like 10 cards a turn in the previous rendition.

If removing 10 cards a turn:

End of turn 1, 5 cards removed permanently from game, 5 discarded start of turn 2 (10 cards total)

End of turn 2, 7 cards removed permanently from game, 8 discarded start of turn 3 (15 cards total), old was 20 cards gone forever

End of turn 3, 8 cards removed permanently from game, 9 discarded start of turn 4 (17 cards total), old was 30 cards gone forever

End of turn 4, 9 cards removed permanently from game, 9 discarded start of turn 5 (18 cards total), old was 40 cards gone forever

End of turn 5, 19 cards effectively removed from game, old was 50 cards gone forever

 

You can't tell me that old version wasn't OP when you can go into turn 3 with very few to no weaks in the deck. Or potentially end the game with 2 cards in play.

[Da Git]

11 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Like if you have Lord Chompy or Widow Weaver you can still Lucid Dream. 

They actually could be viable and interesting lists. Especially Weaver bringing in the puppets! So Nb just effectively gained two potentially competitive leaders