Jesy Blue Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Get used to saying that line when using the Operative, because you just shut down so many things with that one sentence. Here's a brief synopsis of things that the Operative ignores during game: Agile Blade Rush Butterfly Jump Counterspell Crossroads Sin Token Distribution Distraction Diversion Entropy Exclusive Interview Execute triggers Extended Reach Hunting Party Laugh Off Manipulative Penetrating Stench Pounce Protected Scamper Serene Countenance Squeal Stealth Take The Hit Terrifying Torment Vent Steam Wicked .... and finally, opposing Operative's Infiltration Ability. These a just a cursurary glance's highlights, there's probably a bunch more. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgybeans Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Yeah, the ability is NUTS! Luckily the model only has 5 health, because they get to ignore so many things! Also, there are many more. The list will be humungous if we sat down and went through all things. Just off the top of my head it also ignores chatty, and chasing a story from Nellie (the 1st master I thought of that does things) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 13 hours ago, Jesy Blue said: Execute triggers You're the second person I've seen bring up Execute. Is it just a common assumption that it says Enemy Only? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesy Blue Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Whoops, missed that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 So can i take interact while engaged with operative? Can i leave an engaged with the Operative model taking a walk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, belorey said: So can i take interact while engaged with operative? Can i leave the engaged with operativo taking a walk? I think the answer to these is no but only because they're not engaged in the first place as you don't treat them as enemy models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Tooth Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, touchdown said: I think the answer to these is no but only because they're not engaged in the first place as you don't treat them as enemy models. I disagree with that. Infiltrator doesn’t change enemy/friendly considerations for the models themselves, and engagement doesn’t care if your own actions treat the enemy model as friendly or enemy, it simply looks at the range of the melee action. So you’d still be engaged/engaging an Operative even if your attack action is treating them as a friendly. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 29 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said: I disagree with that. Infiltrator doesn’t change enemy/friendly considerations for the models themselves, and engagement doesn’t care if your own actions treat the enemy model as friendly or enemy, it simply looks at the range of the melee action. So you’d still be engaged/engaging an Operative even if your attack action is treating them as a friendly. You don't treat operatives as enemy models for actions. Attacks are actions. Friendly and enemy are not opposites in Malifaux a model can be both (Guilty) or neither. I believe raw, you cannot engage an operative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Tooth Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 9 minutes ago, touchdown said: You don't treat operatives as enemy models for actions. Attacks are actions. Friendly and enemy are not opposites in Malifaux a model can be both (Guilty) or neither. I believe raw, you cannot engage an operative. The concept of friendly and enemy is not defined by your actions though. An Operative hired by your opponent's crew is an enemy model. Infiltrator doesn't stop them being an enemy model except in the sense that your own model's actions treat them like a buddy (which falls under being both enemy and friendly). Engagement likewise doesn't check if your melee can actually target the enemy model beside you, only that the enemy model is inside the range & LOS. So even if your action will treat the Operative as a friendly model, they are still an enemy model inside your engagement range, and thus engaged. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muraki Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 I agree with @Sweet Tooth. I read the action as 'when declaring an action, things typed as 'friendly' or 'enemy' can be played with. Looking at the ability it says: Quote 'enemy models do not treat this model as an enemy model for their actions, abilities and triggers' this is a bit vague, but if you look at the second part where it talks about friendly it says Quote this model may choose to be affected by the actions, abilities and triggers of enemy models that are restricted to 'friendly' models and/or models of a specific keyword Since the ability is a 'friendly / enemy' affecting action, the first 1/2 and second 1/2 should be basically the same thing (with of course the control in the hands of the operative). Using that as an example, the second half clearly calls out the defining characteristic being things called out as 'friendly / keyword' so it makes sense that the first 1/2 would refer to a similar rubric. Additionally looking at the rules for engagement it says: Quote ENGAGEMENT Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest melee Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has LoS to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model, and the enemy model is considered to be engaged by the friendly model. If the friendly model has a longer engagement range than the enemy model, this could lead to situations where the friendly model is engaging the enemy model, but the enemy model is not engaging the friendly model (because the friendly model is not within its engagement range). Models that do not have melee Actions do not have engagement ranges. So the way I read that is 'first check if the model is an enemy, then check the range, 3rd check infiltrator for any action modifiers / if the action isn't valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, muraki said: I agree with @Sweet Tooth. I read the action as 'when declaring an action, things typed as 'friendly' or 'enemy' can be played with. Looking at the ability it says: this is a bit vague, but if you look at the second part where it talks about friendly it says Since the ability is a 'friendly / enemy' affecting action, the first 1/2 and second 1/2 should be basically the same thing (with of course the control in the hands of the operative). Using that as an example, the second half clearly calls out the defining characteristic being things called out as 'friendly / keyword' so it makes sense that the first 1/2 would refer to a similar rubric. Infiltrator doesn't mention declaring in the first sentence. It's a blanket statement that you do not treat it as an enemy for actions. I strongly disagree that the 1st and 2nd sentences are the same. You already pointed out the 2nd sentence is may, not is so it's already different. EG the player with an operative cannot choose to have the opponent treat it as enemy if they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, belorey said: So can i take interact while engaged with operative? Can i leave an engaged with the Operative model taking a walk? No. Engagement is not an action or an ability or a trigger. Determining if a model is engaged is not part of an action, so infiltrate doesn't change it. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muraki Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 33 minutes ago, touchdown said: Infiltrator doesn't mention declaring in the first sentence. It's a blanket statement that you do not treat it as an enemy for actions. I strongly disagree that the 1st and 2nd sentences are the same. You already pointed out the 2nd sentence is may, not is so it's already different. EG the player with an operative cannot choose to have the opponent treat it as enemy if they wanted. Oh I mean sure, was more just a 'the second sentence is making the statement that both are kind of in the 'declare action' stages of the timing chart' not that they're identical. That was more for rules as intent, rules as written was more the page from the rulebook on engagement, which Adran sums up better than I could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesy Blue Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 56 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said: The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away. xD that's an odd outcome. But doesn't matter terribly much - the most important aspect there a lot of the time is stopping interacts or forcing the move to be a push. So you can still body block and control their push corridors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said: The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away. True, but its basically the same as kaeris against a flying model... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4bberw0ck Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 My personal fave is Gamble Your Life. Watch and laugh as Oogie Boogie Jr cries! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrok Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 So this also turns off predatory instinct against them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesy Blue Posted December 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Korrok said: So this also turns off predatory instinct against them? Yeah, that would be correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBugman Posted July 31, 2023 Report Share Posted July 31, 2023 Hello and sorry to drag this thread out of storage. The reason why the Abilities listed above is because they have the word "enemy" in the description? If there's no mention of the word "enemy" then Infiltrator provides no defense? Same goes for attacks having the word "enemy"? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 31, 2023 Report Share Posted July 31, 2023 5 hours ago, JBugman said: Hello and sorry to drag this thread out of storage. The reason why the Abilities listed above is because they have the word "enemy" in the description? If there's no mention of the word "enemy" then Infiltrator provides no defense? Same goes for attacks having the word "enemy"? Thanks in advance Basically yes. Most actions and abilities can be performed on both friendly and enemy models, so the infiltrate making you seem friendly provides no protection from those. So unless the action/ability has differences when applied to friendly or enemy models, infiltrate will do nothing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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