"I'm Not Your Enemy."

[Jesy Blue]

Get used to saying that line when using the Operative, because you just shut down so many things with that one sentence. Here's a brief synopsis of things that the Operative ignores during game:

• Agile
• Blade Rush
• Butterfly Jump
• Counterspell
• Crossroads Sin Token Distribution
• Distraction
• Diversion
• Entropy
• Exclusive Interview
• Execute triggers
• Extended Reach
• Hunting Party
• Laugh Off
• Manipulative
• Penetrating Stench
• Pounce
• Protected
• Scamper
• Serene Countenance
• Squeal
• Stealth
• Take The Hit
• Terrifying
• Torment
• Vent Steam
• Wicked

.... and finally, opposing Operative's Infiltration Ability.

These a just a cursurary glance's highlights, there's probably a bunch more.

 

[Higgybeans]

Yeah, the ability is NUTS!

Luckily the model only has 5 health, because they get to ignore so many things! Also, there are many more. The list will be humungous if we sat down and went through all things.

Just off the top of my head it also ignores chatty, and chasing a story from Nellie (the 1st master I thought of that does things)

[santaclaws01]

13 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Execute triggers

You're the second person I've seen bring up Execute. Is it just a common assumption that it says Enemy Only? 

[Jesy Blue]

Whoops, missed that one.

[belorey]

So can i take interact while engaged with operative?

Can i leave an engaged with the Operative model taking a walk?

[touchdown]

4 minutes ago, belorey said:

So can i take interact while engaged with operative?

Can i leave the engaged with operativo taking a walk?

I think the answer to these is no but only because they're not engaged in the first place as you don't treat them as enemy models.

[Sweet Tooth]

10 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I think the answer to these is no but only because they're not engaged in the first place as you don't treat them as enemy models.

I disagree with that. Infiltrator doesn’t change enemy/friendly considerations for the models themselves, and engagement doesn’t care if your own actions treat the enemy model as friendly or enemy, it simply looks at the range of the melee action. So you’d still be engaged/engaging an Operative even if your attack action is treating them as a friendly. 

[touchdown]

29 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

I disagree with that. Infiltrator doesn’t change enemy/friendly considerations for the models themselves, and engagement doesn’t care if your own actions treat the enemy model as friendly or enemy, it simply looks at the range of the melee action. So you’d still be engaged/engaging an Operative even if your attack action is treating them as a friendly. 

You don't treat operatives as enemy models for actions. Attacks are actions.

Friendly and enemy are not opposites in Malifaux a model can be both (Guilty) or neither.

I believe raw, you cannot engage an operative.

[Sweet Tooth]

9 minutes ago, touchdown said:

You don't treat operatives as enemy models for actions. Attacks are actions.

Friendly and enemy are not opposites in Malifaux a model can be both (Guilty) or neither.

I believe raw, you cannot engage an operative.

The concept of friendly and enemy is not defined by your actions though. An Operative hired by your opponent's crew is an enemy model. Infiltrator doesn't stop them being an enemy model except in the sense that your own model's actions treat them like a buddy (which falls under being both enemy and friendly). 

Engagement likewise doesn't check if your melee can actually target the enemy model beside you, only that the enemy model is inside the range & LOS. So even if your action will treat the Operative as a friendly model, they are still an enemy model inside your engagement range, and thus engaged. 

[muraki]

I agree with @Sweet Tooth.  I read the action as 'when declaring an action, things typed as 'friendly' or 'enemy' can be played with.  Looking at the ability it says:

Quote

'enemy models do not treat this model as an enemy model for their actions, abilities and triggers'

this is a bit vague, but if you look at the second part where it talks about friendly it says

Quote

this model may choose to be affected by the actions, abilities and triggers of enemy models that are restricted to 'friendly' models and/or models of a specific keyword

Since the ability is a 'friendly / enemy' affecting action, the first 1/2 and second 1/2 should be basically the same thing (with of course the control in the hands of the operative).  Using that as an example, the second half clearly calls out the defining characteristic being things called out as 'friendly / keyword' so it makes sense that the first 1/2 would refer to a similar rubric.

Additionally looking at the rules for engagement it says:

Quote

ENGAGEMENT

Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest melee Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has LoS to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model, and the enemy model is considered to be engaged by the friendly model. If the friendly model has a longer engagement range than the enemy model, this could lead to situations where the friendly model is engaging the enemy model, but the enemy model is not engaging the friendly model (because the friendly model is not within its engagement range). Models that do not have melee Actions do not have engagement ranges. 

So the way I read that is 'first check if the model is an enemy, then check the range, 3rd check infiltrator for any action modifiers / if the action isn't valid.

[touchdown]

4 minutes ago, muraki said:

I agree with @Sweet Tooth.  I read the action as 'when declaring an action, things typed as 'friendly' or 'enemy' can be played with.  Looking at the ability it says:

this is a bit vague, but if you look at the second part where it talks about friendly it says

Since the ability is a 'friendly / enemy' affecting action, the first 1/2 and second 1/2 should be basically the same thing (with of course the control in the hands of the operative).  Using that as an example, the second half clearly calls out the defining characteristic being things called out as 'friendly / keyword' so it makes sense that the first 1/2 would refer to a similar rubric.

Infiltrator doesn't mention declaring in the first sentence. It's a blanket statement that you do not treat it as an enemy for actions.

I strongly disagree that the 1st and 2nd sentences are the same. You already pointed out the 2nd sentence is may, not is so it's already different. EG the player with an operative cannot choose to have the opponent treat it as enemy if they wanted.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, belorey said:

So can i take interact while engaged with operative?

Can i leave an engaged with the Operative model taking a walk?

No. Engagement is not an action or an ability or a trigger. Determining if a model is engaged is not part of an action, so infiltrate doesn't change it. 

[muraki]

33 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Infiltrator doesn't mention declaring in the first sentence. It's a blanket statement that you do not treat it as an enemy for actions.

I strongly disagree that the 1st and 2nd sentences are the same. You already pointed out the 2nd sentence is may, not is so it's already different. EG the player with an operative cannot choose to have the opponent treat it as enemy if they wanted.

Oh I mean sure, was more just a 'the second sentence is making the statement that both are kind of in the 'declare action' stages of the timing chart' not that they're identical.  That was more for rules as intent, rules as written was more the page from the rulebook on engagement, which Adran sums up better than I could.

[Jesy Blue]

The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away.

[Maniacal_cackle]

56 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away.

xD that's an odd outcome.

But doesn't matter terribly much - the most important aspect there a lot of the time is stopping interacts or forcing the move to be a push. So you can still body block and control their push corridors.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

The funny thing is if you have a melee attack that is Enemy Only, you can hold them in engagement and force them to Disengage... but you can't swing at them so they just push away.

True, but its basically the same as kaeris against a flying model...

[J4bberw0ck]

My personal fave is Gamble Your Life. Watch and laugh as Oogie Boogie Jr cries!

[Korrok]

So this also turns off predatory instinct against them? 

[Jesy Blue]

8 hours ago, Korrok said:

So this also turns off predatory instinct against them? 

Yeah, that would be correct.

[JBugman]

Hello and sorry to drag this thread out of storage.

The reason why the Abilities listed above is because they have the word "enemy" in the description?  If there's no mention of the word "enemy" then Infiltrator provides no defense?  Same goes for attacks having the word "enemy"?

 

Thanks in advance

[Adran]

5 hours ago, JBugman said:

Hello and sorry to drag this thread out of storage.

The reason why the Abilities listed above is because they have the word "enemy" in the description?  If there's no mention of the word "enemy" then Infiltrator provides no defense?  Same goes for attacks having the word "enemy"?

 

Thanks in advance

Basically yes. 

Most actions and abilities can be performed on both friendly and enemy models, so the infiltrate making you seem friendly provides no protection from those. So unless the action/ability has differences when applied to friendly or enemy models, infiltrate will do nothing.