When are you going to nerf Dashel

[Alcathous]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To me, the key issue with GG1 strats is you can't "preload" them (dropping lots of bombs, claiming lots of turf, etc).

Since you have to do the mechanic once every turn, you can't just use superior mobility to get an advantage early. Instead, the strong board presence of summoners really favours the "do the strategy every turn of the game" twist of current strategies.

So I hope that we see a swing back to preloaded strats, personally.

I haven't thought about preloading strats as something that favors non-summoners, but I like it. I'd definitely be interested in seeing a GG with an even split between 1/turn and reloaded strats.

[Plaag]

10 hours ago, Adran said:

Well killing the dreamer in the first 3 turns is not a bad shout as one way to beat him. 

 

exp dreamer player will save him easy

[theamazingmrg]

11 hours ago, Plaag said:

so, maybe u can say that the key to win dreamer is to kill him and his band until 3 turn? or just flip better cards than dreamer?

Well, killing Dreamer is always a good idea.  But the comparison between dealing with Dreamer and Dashel is flawed.  In the Nightmare Keyword, models can be summoned regardless of the board situation, but they enter Buried, and can only unbury when an enemy model fails a Wp duel.  But with easy access to several Terrifying models, as well as a decent range of Wp attacks, thats not a hard condition to meet.

 

Dashel requires Scheme Markers, but if he uses the ones he places himself, he is limited in what he can summon, and he can't rely on the opponent placing any.  So he uses the Dispatcher as his primary "Scheme Marker", and the dispatcher also doubles up as fuel for the Executioners Trail of Gore and other abilities that target Scheme Markers.  Taking out the Dispatcher kills his easy access to Scheme Markers, which means he isn't summoning the quality models he needs.  

 

So to stop Dashel abusing summoning, you kill the Master or the Totem.  With Dreamer, you have to kill the Master.  Killing a 4 health model that can't use Soulstones is much easier than killing a Master, even if you do need to jump through a few hoops to do it.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

exp dreamer player will save him easy

Unless you are a better player than them, or you have a plan that they don't expect. Or the dreamer player is actually happy to sacrifice their leader for board position/tempo gains. 

Yes, Dreamer should not die easily, and likewise its not easy to kill the dispatcher, but I play the game to find out these things. 

I never understand the number of people that think they can tell me the outcome of a game after 2 or 3 turns (or even after deployment). I've seen enough games that look one sided turn out the be going the other way, and ones that look balanced to be an almost white wash. (People are probably right 80-90% of the time, but part of the reason I like playing the game is finding out those 10-20%when the outcome is unexpected) This sort of thing is not an absolute, or at least its not in games I play. Unless I gun hard for the dreamer, I very much doubt a good player will let him die, but if I think my opponent has built their game plan on a slow dreamer grow list, then I can completely ruin their plans by going hard. 

Back on topic, 

The dispatcher is an important part of Dashels game plan in almost all cases.  Sometimes your best plan is to disrupt his game plan, and other times its to ignore it and execute your plan better. 

The easiest way to disrupt it is normally to deal with the dispatcher. Now its up to you as the opponent if the effort required to kill the dispatcher is effort worth expending. Sometimes it will be, other games it wont. You might even find that in the majority of the games its not worth the effort, but you then start getting into meta choices, in that if people aren't finding the dispatcher targeted, then upgrades on him and dedicated protectors feel like they are over spending on his protection, and he becomes an easier target again. 

 

[Toxic4Mosh]

Pale Rider and phiona seem to me like an auto include... That "Hero we deserve ability" is all you need to say... I dont even play guild (Lynch baby).

I read this discussion and although Dashel seems like one of the best versatile solo masters from my persepective, as stated above... His keyword is trash... And are only worth summoning. 

 

 

 

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Unless you are a better player than them, or you have a plan that they don't expect. Or the dreamer player is actually happy to sacrifice their leader for board position/tempo gains. 

Yes, Dreamer should not die easily, and likewise its not easy to kill the dispatcher, but I play the game to find out these things. 

I never understand the number of people that think they can tell me the outcome of a game after 2 or 3 turns (or even after deployment). I've seen enough games that look one sided turn out the be going the other way, and ones that look balanced to be an almost white wash. (People are probably right 80-90% of the time, but part of the reason I like playing the game is finding out those 10-20%when the outcome is unexpected) This sort of thing is not an absolute, or at least its not in games I play. Unless I gun hard for the dreamer, I very much doubt a good player will let him die, but if I think my opponent has built their game plan on a slow dreamer grow list, then I can completely ruin their plans by going hard. 

Back on topic, 

The dispatcher is an important part of Dashels game plan in almost all cases.  Sometimes your best plan is to disrupt his game plan, and other times its to ignore it and execute your plan better. 

The easiest way to disrupt it is normally to deal with the dispatcher. Now its up to you as the opponent if the effort required to kill the dispatcher is effort worth expending. Sometimes it will be, other games it wont. You might even find that in the majority of the games its not worth the effort, but you then start getting into meta choices, in that if people aren't finding the dispatcher targeted, then upgrades on him and dedicated protectors feel like they are over spending on his protection, and he becomes an easier target again. 

 

i think we have best dreamer players in malifaux, so i can say that u will never kill dreamer against them on 1-2 round, the same with dashel players-its useless to try to kill his totem 

[trikk]

11 hours ago, Azahul said:

I'm genuinely confused as to what Enforcers I'm meant to be looking at. First, I didn't suggest taking Abuela to compensate for low stats, I was saying that the stats are good even before she gets involved. Francisco is a 7, so already top tier. Nino is 5 with a built in positive and ignores cover and concealment. Five with a positive is a hugely useful tool, I play a lot of Parker Barrows and I generally think it's more useful than a straight six thanks to the ability to ignore a lot of defensive rules with it (setting aside the fact that Nino already ignores several of those rules). If you're looking for models with rules and gimmicks to offset their low stats, Nino definitely meets that metric. Most of the crew in my experience A Por Els to Nino when they can thanks to the built in Family Values often giving the card back. Santiago is a Stat 6, which is not low for his bracket. What else should he be, a 7?

 

I'll admit, I'm not enormously impressed with Papa Loco or the Minions, but mostly I was just wondering which stats exactly are considered low. I guess I just value five with a positive unusually highly?

The biggest issue is defensive stats/abilities. The crew has mid-low defense except Dita (4 and 5s), little defensive tech and as a shooting crew has 1 model that ignores cover/concealment. I think the A Por El and Family Values are cool mechanics but the models definitely need to be more durable. Nino should have Stealth and that would bump him immensely. Dita should have Family Values on her gun (primary action) and not Analyze Weakness (useless in a lot of matchups). Santiago should have some sort of damage reduction by himself. Basically, like most of the Guild, the model's defensiveness is built around having LLC on them, but the cost of the models does not represent the 2SS tax

[Azahul]

That makes more sense  They are quite squishy. Parker kind of made me think that's par for the course for shooty crews, though at least his Henchmen are Defence 6.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

That makes more sense  They are quite squishy. Parker kind of made me think that's par for the course for shooty crews, though at least his Henchmen are Defence 6.

Mad Dog can shoot 3 times from 13" with a min 3 blasts and potentially ignore armor. He still has Df6 and HtK. And he can remove cover prior to the shots. Gunslingers have built in positives so they ignore concealment and have really good triggers. In Family nobody has min 3, nobody has blasts and NOBODY has ricochets

[4thstringer]

40 minutes ago, trikk said:

Mad Dog can shoot 3 times from 13" with a min 3 blasts and automatically ignore armor. 

Fixed it.

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Fixed it.

If its ignoring armour it doesn't do blasts, so I'd disagree with your fix

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

If its ignoring armour it doesn't do blasts, so I'd disagree with your fix

that's why I said "potentially"

[Zebo]

But then it wouldn't sound as "he's sooooo broken compared with Guild profiles" as it sounds with "automatically"

[Mycellanious]

16 hours ago, Azahul said:

I'm genuinely confused as to what Enforcers I'm meant to be looking at. First, I didn't suggest taking Abuela to compensate for low stats, I was saying that the stats are good even before she gets involved. Francisco is a 7, so already top tier. Nino is 5 with a built in positive and ignores cover and concealment. Five with a positive is a hugely useful tool, I play a lot of Parker Barrows and I generally think it's more useful than a straight six thanks to the ability to ignore a lot of defensive rules with it (setting aside the fact that Nino already ignores several of those rules). If you're looking for models with rules and gimmicks to offset their low stats, Nino definitely meets that metric. Most of the crew in my experience A Por Els to Nino when they can thanks to the built in Family Values often giving the card back. Santiago is a Stat 6, which is not low for his bracket. What else should he be, a 7?

 

I'll admit, I'm not enormously impressed with Papa Loco or the Minions, but mostly I was just wondering which stats exactly are considered low. I guess I just value five with a positive unusually highly?

FYI you cant draw a card from Nino using A Por EL! This is because Family Values is a Once Per Activation trigger, which per the FAQ cannot be declared outside of an Activation. And since A Por El! happens at the end of a model's Activation, it is after the Activation Phase.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

FYI you cant draw a card from Nino using A Por EL! This is because Family Values is a Once Per Activation trigger, which per the FAQ cannot be declared outside of an Activation. And since A Por El! happens at the end of a model's Activation, it is after the Activation Phase.

Doesn't it happen in StepC3, which according to the FAQ question you are referring to still counts as part of the models activation for the purposes of once per activation effects. 

[trikk]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Doesn't it happen in StepC3, which according to the FAQ question you are referring to still counts as part of the models activation for the purposes of once per activation effects. 

It was discussed and it works AFAIK.

[Mycellanious]

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

Doesn't it happen in StepC3, which according to the FAQ question you are referring to still counts as part of the models activation for the purposes of once per activation effects. 

Oh ok cool. I wanted it to work but we've been playing that it doesnt

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Oh ok cool. I wanted it to work but we've been playing that it doesnt

There are a few discussions on the rules forums about if you want to look it up.

One piece of evidence is the a screenshot of developers saying it works that way, iirc. (Saying it is still in the activation).

[NoahScape]

On 12/7/2020 at 3:10 AM, Adran said:

This does make me question your initial claim that executioners are over tuned, if you're not hiring them. 

Them being too good a summons is more likely a problem with the summoning action, so unless you want to restrict them purely to a summons then weakening them seems like the wrong answer unless you can target something that only really fits their summon role. 

I stated that they are so strong because they are a summon. They're really good hired in, but as a summon, they feel over tuned. 

[fire5tone]

6 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

I stated that they are so strong because they are a summon. They're really good hired in, but as a summon, they feel over tuned. 

But a very good summon doesnt automatically make a master far more powerful than any other summoner

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

But a very good summon doesnt automatically make a master far more powerful than any other summoner

And in fact he was trash tier before the errata by all accounts, even though he had those summons.

Even now, I would argue Kirai is a stronger summoner (16 stones in a turn).

The big difference for Dashel is built in card draw, scheme denial, and big summons. I'd have to take two masters to get that in Ressers.

[trikk]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

And in fact he was trash tier before the errata by all accounts, even though he had those summons.

Even now, I would argue Kirai is a stronger summoner (16 stones in a turn).

The big difference for Dashel is built in card draw, scheme denial, and big summons. I'd have to take two masters to get that in Ressers.

Kirai has other advantages. And has Whisper which is a big deal.

Also I think the card draw relies on having a moderate mask and Steward. Else you get 1 card post summon. 

Sandeep has better card draw, better summons and a decent scheme denial

 

Im all in for changes to Dashel if you let me play in keyword competitively without hiring the same 6 models in each crew 😛

[Azahul]

10 hours ago, trikk said:

Mad Dog can shoot 3 times from 13" with a min 3 blasts and potentially ignore armor. He still has Df6 and HtK. And he can remove cover prior to the shots. Gunslingers have built in positives so they ignore concealment and have really good triggers. In Family nobody has min 3, nobody has blasts and NOBODY has ricochets

To be honest I'm just happy that someone else thinks Stat 5 with a positive is good for an attack after the disparaging comments about Nino  

 

But yes, Mad Dog is very good (though he rarely ignores cover on his first shot, at least until the lines have closed, since you can't charge and drop the Blown Apart Marker before shooting). My experience is that Perdita does tend to outshoot Parker due to the greater prevalence of Focus (moderate damage in either crew is worth landing two weak attacks across almost all the models thanks to all those 2/4/5 damage tracks, but Parker rarely spends time taking concentrate actions because there's almost always something in range to just shoot first and only Mad Dog needs Focus to get through concealment), even though Parker will usually have a few more attacks, but Parker's additional mobility means he usually wins the games by being able to score more efficiently.

[trikk]

21 hours ago, Azahul said:

To be honest I'm just happy that someone else thinks Stat 5 with a positive is good for an attack after the disparaging comments about Nino  

It's bad. But with A Por El and Abuela you can get some cards and fire multiple times which enemies have to account for.

 

Parker shoots pretty bad (for a master). But he can obey Mad Dog/Convict for an extra shot.

[Azahul]

You know in all my games of Parker I have never once used Bandit Raid 🤣 The Convict Gunslinger is just as bad as Parker is, if you want to consider that stat line bad.