Design mistakes in individual profiles

[Math Mathonwy]

OK, the title is obviously a bit attention grabbing but what I wanted to talk about was individual abilities and actions and triggers and whatnot that seem to be mistakes. And by "mistake" I don't mean overtuned stuff (though much of these are) but rather things that somehow seem to go against the general design of the game.

I think that these would be prime candidates for future errata but what do you think? And can you think of other such situations? Do you even agree with the premise?

Without further ado, to the actual cases:

• Joss's explosion isn't capped and it cannot be resisted. You can pump Joss full of Power Tokens and he can explode for 10 damage with no resist. This is silly. Usually not very practical, though.
• Shenlong's Spiritual Alignment can target enemies yet isn't resisted. I think that when you target an enemy with an action that does potentially very bad things to said enemy, there should be a resist of some sort. I don't understand why on earth there isn't in this case.
• Thoon's Frozen Trophy Trigger doesn't offer a resist flip, either. Compare to Glimpse, for example. It just happens and it can affect Masters (and the resulting pillar can be chucked a massive distance away). I think that it should have a simple duel to resist the effect, though it could be extremely high. Or it should be non-Master.

Then a couple of somewhat more corner cases, IMHO

• Dead Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse that just happens. I think that, again, a some form of resist should be there even if it was Wp 17 or something equally ludicrous. Now, it is a Rider's ultimate ability, so the design intent there could very well for it to be something that "breaks design". I could totally see that.
• Spreading out the Reliquaries and eliminating the supposed drawback of Yan Lo's design through a couple of models. I don't think that this was how it was supposed to work. But this has been discussed a lot so I won't go into this at length.
• Coryphee Duet's double activation. Was this really how it was envisioned? It seems really, really weird and also kinda goes against the whole Pass Token thing.

So yeah, what do you think?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think one of the great things about Malifaux is that lots of things 'break the rules'.

That said, Hurl Corpse is a bit bonkers. The throwing of the corpse being italics makes sense thematically (if you throw the corpse once, it should be moved... You shouldn't be able to throw the corpse multiple times)... But mechanically it is a bit bonkers - can get a corpse marker into base contact with an enemy, no chance of resisting it in any way? Very strong (you can then attack from ~9" away with Reva through the corpse marker, or you can engage people with a corpse candle).

Lost Knowledge on Molly removes the marker in the italics, which is a bit odd. Even if the action fails, she gets to remove markers (like piano markers)? Don't think that's intended.

In general, putting effects in italics has very weird consequences (see pre-errata Shenlong with movement in italics).

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think one of the great things about Malifaux is that lots of things 'break the rules'.

I think that breaking rules is fine but I feel that there is a distinction between breaking the rules and breaking the design intent behind the rules. I'm not sure whether I'm communicating this right... There is also the fact that many of these examples are kinda minor things that aren't what defines the character so "breaking the rules" there is odd to say the least. The corner cases in the second list are more defining things which is a big part of the reason why I put them into the second list.

The italics thing is a good point, though! Similarly, Big Brain Brin's case was also fixed in the errata.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

The italics thing is a good point, though! Similarly, Big Brain Brin's case was also fixed in the errata.

Yeah, I've found two cases in the two crews I play, so there's probably a lot of weird things in italics.

[Azahul]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Unresisted damage is a big deal. Pustulent Tumours on Hamelin springs to mind as an example from crews I play. If you've got six rats in position that you're willing to kill you can pulse out a good 12 damage without resistance in an activation. And Appraise is another action that gives you a guaranteed way to remove an enemy scheme marker even if the action fails.

[dannydb]

Tempering steal on a corphee duet actually heals the duet when they split 

[trikk]

41 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

 

• Pale Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse that just happens. I think that, again, a some form of resist should be there even if it was Wp 17 or something equally ludicrous. Now, it is a Rider's ultimate ability, so the design intent there could very well for it to be something that "breaks design". I could totally see that.

Pale Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse. Fixed it for ya
Dead Rider has a 2/3/4 OTOH

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, trikk said:

Pale Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse. Fixed it for ya
Dead Rider has a 2/3/4 OTOH

Totally meant the Dead Rider! I think that Pale's current version is fine... I'll fix it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I feel like the rider's in general are meant to be a bit ridiculous with their ultimates, but on the topic of Dead Rider...

It can pick someone up and push them 30"+ inches across the board with its Reap trigger. So that's also a bit ridiculous xD

Please don't nerf my Dead Rider's Reap.

[Adran]

46 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Then a couple of somewhat more corner cases, IMHO

• Dead Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse that just happens. I think that, again, a some form of resist should be there even if it was Wp 17 or something equally ludicrous. Now, it is a Rider's ultimate ability, so the design intent there could very well for it to be something that "breaks design". I could totally see that.
• Coryphee Duet's double activation. Was this really how it was envisioned? It seems really, really weird and also kinda goes against the whole Pass Token thing.

So yeah, what do you think?

I think you would find people complaining more about the damage if it was a very high TN, because then in addition to lots of damage, they have just flipped through a large chunk of their deck for virtually no reason ( This is obviously a psychology thing, similar to having a model killed feels ok, having  a model paralysed feels bad. )

That said I'm not so against auto damage that has a high build up cost, so the fact I can blow up joss in a mega explosion if I spend several activations setting it up isn't something that I see a problem.

And if I remember there are 3 models out there that automatically break the even activation on both sides, the duet, Molly and Tara. 2 of these are masters, and the third is the highest costed non master in the game. Re-activate was a Colette thing previously, and I think its fair to say that if the double activation of the duet wasn't the intended way, then the designers made some weird choices in never putting out a version that wasn't allowed to get 2 activations during the public beta, and the model isn't well costed for its abilities with out the reactivate. (Would it have felt less strange if it was spelt out on the cards, rather than hidden  in following the replace rules correctly)

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

And if I remember there are 3 models out there that automatically break the even activation on both sides, the duet, Molly and Tara. 2 of these are masters, and the third is the highest costed non master in the game. Re-activate was a Colette thing previously, and I think its fair to say that if the double activation of the duet wasn't the intended way, then the designers made some weird choices in never putting out a version that wasn't allowed to get 2 activations during the public beta, and the model isn't well costed for its abilities with out the reactivate. (Would it have felt less strange if it was spelt out on the cards, rather than hidden  in following the replace rules correctly)

I'd go so far as to say it is one of the main reasons to play a Molly crew, activation control. So tinkering with it has massive balance implications. Certainly the Colette matchup would be entirely altered if the Coryphee Duet couldn't double activate.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

That said I'm not so against auto damage that has a high build up cost, so the fact I can blow up joss in a mega explosion if I spend several activations setting it up isn't something that I see a problem.

Other effects which do damage based on conditions or tokens tend to be capped, though. I'm thinking of stuff like Brewmaster, McMourning, and Lynch. I can't think of any other effect in the game that has uncapped damage like that but it might very well that I'm forgetting stuff.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Other effects which do damage based on conditions or tokens tend to be capped, though. I'm thinking of stuff like Brewmaster, McMourning, and Lynch. I can't think of any other effect in the game that has uncapped damage like that but it might very well that I'm forgetting stuff.

McMourning can also stack 5 poison in a single activation, so it makes sense to cap it xD

Hamelin, I don't know of any way he can quickly stack more than 5 tokens on someone. I'm not familiar with the Joss example as much, but it looks like just a demise? Guild Steward nukes for up to 8 damage and doesn't even require setup, and can't be avoided by range. So it doesn't seem that crazy to me.

Does Joss have an easy way to kill himself? As is, it seems like a very hard to aim nuke (and can backfire - imagine something like Dead Rider pulling him next to your master and then killing Joss...)

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't know Yan Lo's crew that well, but there's often a lot of claims about his crew not working as was probably intended. The upgrades tend to put him very quickly into invincible territory (I hear), and the shenanigans with resurrecting stuff allows double activations, etc.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

McMourning can also stack 5 poison in a single activation, so it makes sense to cap it xD

Hamelin, I don't know of any way he can quickly stack more than 5 tokens on someone. I'm not familiar with the Joss example as much, but it looks like just a demise? Guild Steward nukes for up to 8 damage and doesn't even require setup, and can't be avoided by range. So it doesn't seem that crazy to me.

Does Joss have an easy way to kill himself? As is, it seems like a very hard to aim nuke (and can backfire - imagine something like Dead Rider pulling him next to your master and then killing Joss...)

I'm not saying that it is too powerful, necessarily, but rather that it is strange design and seems (to me) like an oversight. Guild Steward has obviously been designed to do eight damage and that's his schtick so it's a different story, I think.

But yeah, Hamelin is a good point - his damage isn't capped, right? So he could, at least in theory, do 10+ damage in one go. So maybe it is design intent on Joss as well.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'm not saying that it is too powerful, necessarily, but rather that it is strange design and seems (to me) like an oversight. Guild Steward has obviously been designed to do eight damage and that's his schtick so it's a different story, I think.

But yeah, Hamelin is a good point - his damage isn't capped, right? So he could, at least in theory, do 10+ damage in one go. So maybe it is design intent on Joss as well.

Yeah, I think the idea is there are a few special models that can super stack stuff with tons of prep:

• Joss and his demise
• Hamelin/Nix and blight tokens
• Benny Wolcomb and vermin nukes
• Nellie and damage equal to markers (that one seems much easier to stack though, you could potentially go from 0 to 10+ in a turn if her crew is really efficient at dropping them).
• Hooded Rider can take up to 20+ attacks I think with his ultimate.
• Coppelius' Unhinge can do 10+ damage I think.
• Possibly some others

So it is reasonably common I think.

OTOH, for some reason Lynch caps how much damage he can do with tokens (possibly because it is his main attack/summon?)

[Rufess]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

And if I remember there are 3 models out there that automatically break the even activation on both sides, the duet, Molly and Tara.

plus the Mechanical Rider?

[Adran]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:59 AM, Rufess said:

plus the Mechanical Rider?

Not really in the way I intended. It allows a model to activate more than once, but it doesn't give you an extra activation slot. (If you activate first, you won't activate last using the mechanical rider). 

 

Edit- Although as pointed out, I probably ought to include Pass token generating abilities in this group as well, so  it is larger.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing that always seems super clunky to me is Lure...

You can move forward and lure an ally to be in right behind you... But then they have to walk around you? It's so clunky. Much prefer Where's Teddy (where if Teddy ends in base contact with Kade, Kade can place in base contact with Teddy, aka get a free move out of the way).

[LexLock]

Arcanists

• Banasuva's "Lord of the Elements" seems like it should say other friendly elemental because as it is now he can give orders to himself.
• The "Fade Away" trigger can be declared while buried just for the damage reduction (are they fading away from the Void/Box and reappearing from a meta-void?), the place this really hurts is against Colette because it seems like anti burying crews would be a natural counter to her, but she's still crazy tanky.

Guild

• Augmented's "Transfer Power" action looks like it should say other friendly construct, as it is they all pretty much have Battle Tempo as a bonus (not sure if Hoffman deserves a nerf though).

Neverborn

• The Mysterious Emissary's "Roots from Below" action gives a  to resist if you are in severe (intended), but its Quicksand Trigger causes a TN 15 Wp duel (already pretty hard) that inherits that  which might be unintended (looks that way to me).
• Who knows what the hell is going on with Nekima's Enraged by Influence action; they "FAQed" it and broke the Ricochet Trigger, I definitely think it's too niche with that change.
• The Rougarou can use its "Intimidating Roar" action on allies, which can give you 12" of movement on your biggest beater without a flip, combined with Neverborn's "Ill Omens" upgrade it can make alpha strikey masters really broken if you don't see it coming (like 2e Viks, very harsh on new players).
• Serena Bowman's Bottle of Painkillers can be used on herself, which is probably intended design if I'm honest, but they could make her a lot less ubiquitous by changing it so that it only works on other friendlys.
• "Fiendish Gamble" on Stitched was looks like a way for them to tip the scales on their "Gamble your Life" attack but since it can be used outside of their activation you can just store up high cards with the rest of your crew and use them for defensive flips, which makes them a bit efficient IMO for a summoning keyword that should be feeling hand pressure.

Outcasts

• Hannah Lovelace can copy her own "Adaptive Tactics" with... "Adaptive Tactics" to get the Purification Trigger. Pretty minor balance wise, but I think it points to a trend of tactical actions that can target their owner when it doesn't really make sense and I think some of these actions just slipped through the cracks in the Beta.
• Can Marlena Webster's "Aetheric Healing" choose not to discard a card and just get the surge Trigger for card draw?
• The Viks "Dragon's Bite" action seems intended to be combined with their Sisters in Spirit ability (lets them place the other Vik in btb at the start of activation), but because of engagement ranges, base size and it being a push, it is mathematically impossible to use them together if you're more than a 2-3" away, as the second Vik you push will bump into the first before it gets in melee range.

          Changing it to a move that has to end as close to the target as possible (or a Place if you want to get crazy) would make "Dragon's Bite" synergise with Sisters in                Spirit the way I think it's supposed to.

Resurrectionists

• The Dead Rider's Soulfire Trigger doesn't have a  built into it and I think that's part of why it feels so unfair, it's unresisted and they can cheat the damage against you? Gross.
• Ikiryo's Kirai's Soul Ability (lets her be summoned by Kirai) seems like it should have one of those if Kirai Ankoku is this crews Leader clauses to stop a hired Kirai from getting a free Totem.

Ten Thunders

• Shenlong can "The Dragon Commands it" himself (isn't he the Dragon?) which is a bit weird.
• Yan Lo's Demise (Shatter Reliquary) makes him pretty much unkillable as is (unless you're one of the factions that can counter Demise) and I think it could do with a bit more of an opportunity cost. Changing it to only work on other models in the aura would mean that there would be a way to counter it a bit, as you could kill his bodyguard model and then start working on killing him (still really hard to do)
• Youko Hamasaki really doesn't need a nerf but her We Own You trigger is AFAIK the only enemy obey effect in the game that can force them to take bonus actions and this gives it ridiculous power spikes against a few models (Teddy, Desolation Engine, Rat Kings) that must be unintended, because they can end up eating themselves, or if you are extremely unfortunate, your own master.
• The Masked Agent upgrade's With Me ability can be used on the model carrying the upgrade for an extra place at the end of a charge which doesn't really make sense, it also means that if they ever release a TT model with Made to Kill that is larger than the Katashiro there will be problems.

 

Sorry for the wall of text everyone, feel free to pick one thing in there to vehemently disagree with me about if you want.

[Jesy Blue]

52 minutes ago, LexLock said:

• Youko Hamasaki really doesn't need a nerf but her We Own You trigger is AFAIK the only enemy obey effect in the game that can force them to take bonus actions and this gives it ridiculous power spikes against a few models (Teddy, Desolation Engine, Rat Kings) that must be unintended, because they can end up eating themselves, or if you are extremely unfortunate, your own master.

This is intentional.

How many models have an Obey or Obey-like action?  About 20.

Why would you bother giving a model, a Master at that, an Obey and put so many additional limitations on it (half the range, a trigger, non-built in suit, discard cards to prevent) if it was just a regular old Obey?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

 

• "Fiendish Gamble" on Stitched was looks like a way for them to tip the scales on their "Gamble your Life" attack but since it can be used outside of their activation you can just store up high cards with the rest of your crew and use them for defensive flips, which makes them a bit efficient IMO for a summoning keyword that should be feeling hand pressure.

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text everyone, feel free to pick one thing in there to vehemently disagree with me about if you want.

Since you asked for people to disagree  - I think fiendish gamble was put in because people were worried about removing good cards from their deck with lucid dreaming. Honestly I think that was people not understanding the odds, but it was something that a lot of people complained about. Personally I think Lucid dreams was a bit too god anyway to need a safety valve, but this safety valve is too efficient. Stick it on an Insidious madness and its not such a bad thing.  

( I guess I'm actually agreeing with your outcome, just disagreeing with the reason it was included)

[Paddywhack]

13 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

• Dead Rider's 2/3/4 damage Pulse that just happens. I think that, again, a some form of resist should be there even if it was Wp 17 or something equally ludicrous. Now, it is a Rider's ultimate ability, so the design intent there could very well for it to be something that "breaks design". I could totally see that.
• Spreading out the Reliquaries and eliminating the supposed drawback of Yan Lo's design through a couple of models. I don't think that this was how it was supposed to work. But this has been discussed a lot so I won't go into this at length.

I think Dead Rider is intentional. He's a rider.

I think giving Chiaki Split Spirit broke Yan Lo's mechanics. I was not happy with the final direction in Beta and made my case, but there was no going back. I believe giving Chiaki Split Spirit happened late in Beta and maybe didn't get enough play. It does negate one of the downsides of the Reliquaries, which imo are a cool idea, but never really panned out as intended. I think Split Spirit was an attempt to correct, but maybe over corrected? It is simply too good and too easy to protect your big hitters by splitting early and easy and then throwing that model in the enemy's face with no real downside. 

 

[Jesy Blue]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

I think giving Chiaki Split Spirit broke Yan Lo's mechanics. I was not happy with the final direction in Beta and made my case, but there was no going back. I believe giving Chiaki Split Spirit happened late in Beta and maybe didn't get enough play. It does negate one of the downsides of the Reliquaries, which imo are a cool idea, but never really panned out as intended. I think Split Spirit was an attempt to correct, but maybe over corrected? It is simply too good and too easy to protect your big hitters by splitting early and easy and then throwing that model in the enemy's face with no real downside.

From what I remember, it got no play test.   It was not there when open beta ended but was there when official launched.

[Angelshard]

Doppelgangers mimic has mental trauma as a trigger, that seems too good for an action that doesn't get resisted. Especially with Lucius, who has a lot of ways to hurt the opponents hand. Activate her late and it's 3 irresistible damage, before she starts whacking you with your own attack.