Issues for possible Errata

[wizuriel]

One thing would like to see changed is small favour so you count as friendly during the models activation.

Right now using it on an enemy is kind of pointless as you still count as an enemy and can't do much with it

[solkan]

5 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

One thing would like to see changed is small favour so you count as friendly during the models activation.

Right now using it on an enemy is kind of pointless as you still count as an enemy and can't do much with it

Three models have that trigger.

• On nurses, it's a ranged action, if you're swimming in Poison in an experimental crew, it doubles as a friendly Obey.
• On Fingers, it's a built in trigger on a melee attack.
• On The Brewmaster, it's a trigger on Lure (range 12).

I think Fingers is better off getting friendly models drunk and asking them for favors.  I'll admit to not knowing all of the different uses for friendly Poison on Tri-Chi models, but it looks like it includes:

• Getting Cooper Jones supplied with Poison to produce full health Whiskey Gamin.
• Powering up Akaname
• Damage reduction on Fermented River Monks

Which of those models need an improvement?

 

[Lechuzo_Loco]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Make it so that Fermented River Style only affects the Action printed on the upgrade. 

That might be too much of a nerf in the wrong direction. Make Drunken Kung fu only might be good though. But in both cases it doesn't help much against the main issue that it counters some masters (such as Molly) very hard. On the other hand, not announcing those masters against 10t helps as well. Everyone knows that this can happen and I also don't bring Fuhatsu on matches against Neverborn or bayou. Maybe better not to nerf at all, as oposed to breaking him entirely.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Lechuzo_Loco said:

That might be too much of a nerf in the wrong direction. Make Drunken Kung fu only might be good though. But in both cases it doesn't help much against the main issue that it counters some masters (such as Molly) very hard. On the other hand, not announcing those masters against 10t helps as well. Everyone knows that this can happen and I also don't bring Fuhatsu on matches against Neverborn or bayou. Maybe better not to nerf at all, as oposed to breaking him entirely.

Agree, drunken kung fu is very good, but not the main problem imo. I'd go with:

• Falling Rave Kick: An extra limitation that prevent it to be used after a charge (no more 12'' charges)
• Four Winds Punch: It doesn't affect to scheme markers anymore (He got a top notch scheme denial on top of his killy and utility heavy kit). Maybe also an easy TN like 10?
• Fury of the Dawn: Either "Agressive Chi" (Irreductible damage) changed for "From the Heavens" trigger (damage cannot be reduced with SS) or max damage reduced to 4.

One of these buffs to the HR style:

• Flaming Dragon Kick get range 2'' (useful but a bit wonky to combo with the other range 1 attacks tho)
• Flaming Dragon Kick get max damage 6 (not sure about this one, it's maybe too good on top of Burning+2...)
• Flaming Dragon Kick get in Moderate and Severe damage (easier Blasts)
• Flaming Dragon Kick get a built-in  (easy transition to other styles and also an indirect buff for the HRM, personal favourite).

And also this extra line to Master of the five temples:

• "During the Start Phase of the first Turn, this model may attach a Style Upgrade" (extra Chi for Monks at the start of the game to encourage Monk lists, plus a way to push him with the students the first turn before activating him to compensate the Falling Rave Kick extra limitation)

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you just took the melee symbol off of falling rave kick, it would have a significant weakening effect. Counterplay of concealment, can't do it off a charge, etc.

[Ogid]

Thinking about Archie… What about these changes?

• Mv increased to 7.
• Gain Rush ability (+2’’ charge).
• Ambush as bonus action (Discard a card if not in concealing terrain; push 3’’ if not engaged).
• Jump removed.

The main objective is giving him a bit of counterplay by removing jump; so this way now he can be controlled engaging him with sturdy models and also models can bodyblock him (so he can’t no longer jump over the frontline to kill support models, he needs to reposition a bit to get good charge lanes). He can still kill things very efficiently, but now he has to work a bit harder to get to the good targets and it doesn’t have a jump to disengage for free so it has to commit harder.

The Mv and Rush are there to compensate the Jump loss and not gutting his mobility as he is a Crooligan deliverer for Molly. It’d gain 1’’ of movement (18’’ vs 19’’) and It’d lose 1’’ of charge range when combined with the bonus action (13’’ vs 12’’). 

These changes has some advantages for him: it’d gain a second way to discard a card (Ambush), giving him the opportunity to trigger Brain Freeze twice per turn without extra help (which is synergistic with Molly’s Gorgon’s Influence) and Mv7 will make him very good versus attacks targeting Mv.

With these changes I think he would still be a very solid 9SS model, would keep most of his strenghts and role, and would have more synergy with Molly (double discard card); but there would also be more counterplay oportunities (bodyblock and engage).

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or just remove flurry, or leap. Full stop.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Does anything indicate Archie needs a nerf? Ressers are not doing exceptionally well in tournaments and many pros field lists without him (he is only auto include for Molly). And apparently he was hot garbage for many parts of the beta, so he is a very easy model to nerf into unplayability.

If this was beta, I'd suggest: take his mask off of his leap, BUT give crooligans fading (when this model discards a card, a friendly non master within pulse 2 gains the suit until the end of turn). It'd make an awesome synergy while weakening him out of keyword.

Since we are not in beta, I have to ask: is he really dominating, or are some people just struggling with him?

He certainly feels less scary than Ten Thunders in my local meta.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think it’s the same perceived issue as belles from last edition. They never NEEDED a nerf, when looked at in the totality of the faction and faction win rates. However comparing their value to the standard value of pretty much any other 5ss model in the game, without looking at the macro balance and you kinda had to scratch at the value for cost.

Same thing with Archie. He’s pretty much a steal out of keyword for the total value you get, far and away better than any other model in faction, and I’d say comparable if not actually better than the rider, and he’s 2 stones cheaper for Molly and 1 for everyone else. I have trouble looking in any faction and seeing pretty much any model that gives such universal value. He’s so good he’s ubiquitous for pretty much every competitive minded resser crew, with the possible exception of Jack Daw.

And a big part of that is the fact he has flurry and leap. I really can’t think off the top of my head any other non-master model that gets essentially a free extra movement ability, not to mention one as good as a suited leap, AND an extra attack action. I personally think he’d still be a good, pretty ubiquitous hire with Molly if you upped his cost by 2, or left him alone and just removed flurry or leap.

To be fair though I’m less concerned with the op models at the moment. Archie is just insane value for cost, but he isn’t fundamentally breaking the game by existing, I just think he could be altered to be more fair. And even though I’m a resser player I’ll keep bringing it up because I try to be even handed. However, if they are going to do errata this edition I’d personally rather they started with models that don’t get played that often rather than waiting 4+years before boosting underpowered models, like last edition.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I use Archie in every crew, and so do a few other people I know... But it is more that Archie + Dead Rider + any core box is a good budget crew more than he is overpowered.

Those competing in top tier tournaments don't appear to be spamming him as much.

I certainly have the impression that Archie is a model that any crew can take, but there are better options if you are practice with them (and own them).

The valedictorian is a good example. She is wayyyyy better for Transmortis than Archie is from my understanding. McMourning would rather have Kentauroi for many builds.

As with all nerfs, I'd not mix up popularity with power. Archie is a damn cool model that you can use as an effective beater in any crew. This appeals to casual players (budget, learning curve, easy to play, coolness factor), but it doesn't mean he is the best choice for all (or even many) crews.

I think nerfing models that are popular for the above reasons is a bad idea. I also suspect (though am not certain) Archie falls into the above reasons for being popular.

EDIT: all that said, I'd be fine with a 1-2 stone increase. Stone costs are way more important across several models, so adjusting one is not as big an issue to me as getting a faction or keyword right. A 1 stone increase on crooligans would be way worse for example.

[Ogid]

Pretty much what @Fetid Strumpet said, he don't need a nerf looking at how is RES doing, however he is in almost every competitive list so there is clearly something off there; I'm on the opinion that if a model is in every list, then there may be a problem there. I didn't want to propose a heavy nerf taking in count how is the faction doing and his Role in Molly lists; so I suggested changes in his profile that leave him almost in the same spot but with some twists that offer more counterplay oportunities.

The above profile is more sturdy with a Mv7 (which is also a defensive stat after all) and Ambush triggering brain freeze, he can still move a fair distance and attack two or three times with a min damage 3 (so still as dangerous as before versus isolated targets) and he is still fast enough to be used as a Crooligan deliverer, and the discard 2 cards per turn make him better with Molly than with other RES masters. But with the above changes the other player has the oportunity to engage him to slow him down (with Mv7 it's still hard to pin down) or to put models blocking charge paths, which is fair taking in count in his current iteration there is no way to control him.

However I'd also like to see underwhelming models getting some love.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Is he in almost every competitive list? From what I can tell on the Resser forums, the highest performing tournament players don't always field him (except with Molly).

[Fetid Strumpet]

Archie is popular because he is insane value. Taking Archie is like essentially getting 1 to 2 extra SS. His fading ability works no matter who takes him, and his mobility and hitting power are things every crew needs, and in many cases doesn’t have. 
 

And that’s kinda the point. It’s possible that if Transmortis could only bring 1 model the Valedictorian might be the first choice, but you can bring both.

And again I don’t think he needs to be at the top of the needs fixing list. And again I’d rather models that are underpowered get fixed first. But recognizing he is undercosted, to a significant degree is just reality. He doesn’t absolutely need a cost increase, but in my opinion he should get one. There is a difference.

[katadder]

15 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you just took the melee symbol off of falling rave kick, it would have a significant weakening effect. Counterplay of concealment, can't do it off a charge, etc.

no counterplay off concealment, would actually make it better if anything due to negs becoming pos.

I still think for shenlong that removing his irreducible, and the 6" move off falling rave kick would probably sort him.

on Archie, he is like the first mate for bayou basically seen as a 10ss versatile because they are too good for their cost. removing the suited leap would probably help this to a degree.

[oistene]

Here's a big +1 to upgrading bad models before nerfing too good models. There are still a bunch of models there is NO point what so ever to take.

[katadder]

22 minutes ago, oistene said:

Here's a big +1 to upgrading bad models before nerfing too good models. There are still a bunch of models there is NO point what so ever to take.

sometimes thats because other models are too good though, so even upgrading a bad model wont see it taken if another is too good.

[oistene]

There are a few models that are downright broken and needs a tweak (Stitched Together springs to mind). But many more deserve a boost.

Also - nerfs make people unhappy and angry. Boosts generally make people happy.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think it’s more nuanced than that, personally. I think the keyword system has showed people generally want to take thematic models with their masters, but have the flexibility to bring in needed tools or counter picks. 
 

In an absolute sense yes models that are too good will crowd out others, but there are a number of ways to mitigate that. Jack for instance doesn’t tend to take Archie because his keyword is so synergistic even though on a point for effect basis none of his models actually equal Archie, considered on the whole, he’d prefer to bring his own models rather than bring Archie. 
 

If you get keyword models close, but provide internal synergies then you can boost pick rates without having to create additional Archie level models. 

[DuBlanck]

I don't think all of the following are necessary for each model, but they seem like straightforward intuitive, but not too extreme, changes;

Stitched Together: drop Fiendish Gamble (the deck manipulation is enough already, there should be a gambling aspect to Lucid Dreaming). Make Gamble Your Life an Attack.

Archie: Hulking Leap (3" Place, not 6"). Drop the built-in suit. Reducing his 2-attack range from 17" to 14" means he has to set up inside shooting range, and makes him less likely to fly over buildings in a frankly stupid fashion. Make his Leap, one of the best mobility actions in the game, at least cost something. He's good enough value that a good handful of people on various podcasts have said a Ressur crew starts with the Rider and Archie almost before the Master, based solely on the value for Stones they provide.

Shlong: reduce the Falling Rave move to 3". Reduce Falling Rave Severe damage to 4. Increase the aura range of Low River style (4"? 6"?) so that style gets at least talked about, and other Monks can be valued members of the crew. Aggressive Chi does not ignore Soul Stone prevention.

Or, just revert Soul Stones back to super-magic-life-saving, instead of reduction. Where appropriate (Levi? Grave Spirit stuff?) make specific attacks ignore Soul Stone damage prevention. This might upset the balance of those Keywords that have easier access to Stone generation.

[Ogid]

Both buffs and nerfs are necessary. A too efficient model will be played even if underwelming models become fair picks and if a lot of models are brought into the top model levels, that's powercreep that will mess with the general balance. The ideal scenario is having clear the powerlevel of the game and change models to keep them around that to promote variety in crew building and playstiles.

There will always going to be top dogs, but there shouldn't be "must take" models for most masters of an entire faction.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On the topic of Archie... To re-emphasise a previous point. Here's some quotes from the 5 page thread discussing Archie in the Ressers forum. I asked:

Quote

I'm curious how many people here have actually played with/against Archie.

@thewrathchilde responded. He is one of the top tier players from... The States, I think? He was top tables at the Nova tournament for example, I believe. He has done several Third Floor Wars podcasts. I always find myself disagreeing with him when I theorycraft, then when I actually play the game more I find myself saying "oh, his argument was right." So he is someone who's opinion I have come to respect. He said:

Quote

in the last tournament I played (5 round) he was only in my list in 2 games and in one of those I played Forgotten in the other I took him OOK.

in probably 5-6 games since then he has not been in my crew at all. He is a great hire for a number of crews in and out of keyword but there are also many crews where he doesn’t have a place or fit based on the synergy within the keyword. 

Part of it is probably armchair general hysterics from people that haven’t actually played him, played against him, or done so competitively.

Most tournaments don’t capture anything beyond Keyword at best so there obviously isn’t any tournament data to support changing him. in a tournament I would expect Forgotten players to main him 100%, Redchapel maybe 50/50..... Ancestor maybe 50/50 depending on the player. However in Experimental, Transmortis, or Urami I wouldn’t expect to see him at all. 

So I would caution against calling for nerfs unless you have played with/against him quite extensively. Note that I initially proposed some possible changes to Archie in that thread, so I was initially on the bandwagon that Archie was potentially too powerful. However, especially after my first tournament, I can see he is powerful for certain niches, but not autotake for every situation and crew. He is also far, far stronger in keyword (because he carries crooligans in his giant pockets), which I think a lot of people ignore when selecting him OOK.

Maybe I should do a write-up of his weaknesses to help people beat him. Is that something people would like to see, from the perspective of someone who mains Molly?

[KingJocko]

I don't think nerfing abilities or stats on Archie would be a good solution. During beta he went through iterations where he lost things like Flurry and the mask on Leap and in my testing group's battle reports showed his performance plummeted, he seemed to need the whole package. However at the time he wasn't considered OP because there was no personal Fading ability (there was a generic version across the keyword) and he had Juggernaut for healing which competed against Leap. In the last few beta updates we got Fading (x) and lost Juggernaut, so there suddenly wasn't competition over healing or mobility. Beta quickly ended and by the controversy he now generates I would say Archie wasn't fully tested. As a model he's a series of extremes, great offensive potential with fairly weak and obvious defenses. He's like a Jenga tower ready to fall if the wrong tweak is implemented. I think a cost increase is the most viable solution if he needs a nerf. Cost efficiency is always what's referenced when giving a reason on why he's always hired and a minor increase wouldn't stop people who enjoy him from continuing to hire him and ensure the opponent that more of your points are tied up in a single model.

[Morgan Vening]

7 hours ago, KingJocko said:

I don't think nerfing abilities or stats on Archie would be a good solution. During beta he went through iterations where he lost things like Flurry and the mask on Leap and in my testing group's battle reports showed his performance plummeted, he seemed to need the whole package. However at the time he wasn't considered OP because there was no personal Fading ability (there was a generic version across the keyword) and he had Juggernaut for healing which competed against Leap. In the last few beta updates we got Fading (x) and lost Juggernaut, so there suddenly wasn't competition over healing or mobility. Beta quickly ended and by the controversy he now generates I would say Archie wasn't fully tested. As a model he's a series of extremes, great offensive potential with fairly weak and obvious defenses. He's like a Jenga tower ready to fall if the wrong tweak is implemented. I think a cost increase is the most viable solution if he needs a nerf. Cost efficiency is always what's referenced when giving a reason on why he's always hired and a minor increase wouldn't stop people who enjoy him from continuing to hire him and ensure the opponent that more of your points are tied up in a single model.

That's why if he was ever considered for a change, I'm hoping that it'd be something like "When this model is hired out of Keyword, it costs an additional soulstone."

Make it two SS if necessary.

It's like Redchapel, even if Seamus is a beast, as a Keyword (includng having to hire OOK), he's not a problem.

Alternatively, give him the same kind of exception to a problematic ability as Seamus does. If he's OOK, he doesn't get the Mask on Leap, or he has to discard two cards for Flurry (cause he's forgetful when Molly isn't there to remind him).

Simply put, he doesn't look like he's a problem in Keyword, so I wouldn't want him to change there. At least not without a lot more conclusiveness.

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

That's why if he was ever considered for a change, I'm hoping that it'd be something like "When this model is hired out of Keyword, it costs an additional soulstone."

Make it two SS if necessary.

This is a concept worth exploring. It could allow the design of more optimiced models for some keywords without these becoming the new meta OOK pick for the entire faction. It's not something to abuse because having OOK picks to adapt is something that gives depth to the game, but an overall good suggestion 👍

[dannydb]

I think for a start drunken river style's attack cost needs removing and then just a ability added to it stating that the charge maybe a move rather than a push