Issues for possible Errata

[Squiptar]

Opening a thread to place utterly broken stuff that got overlooked in beta testing.

After an encounter with Yan Lo and Anna Lovelace, making my first suggestion.  When Anna can just freely kill their own models whatever the cost, and Yan Lo just summons them back in again at full health and unactivated, then we have an issue. (And hence spreading those previously locked up upgrades).

My suggestion- a cost restriction on Anna’s ability. Or simply make it just for mindless zombies or a particular keyword.

Already pretty sour on summoners in general- I just think that the ability to gain full models is very broken. When you’re easily adding around an extra 10-20% value to your crew at no real penalty... where’s the balance? 

(Yeah I know this thread makes me sound like sour-grapes. Mostly I’m very happy with 3e but there’s those occasional situations that do spoil the experience)

[dannydb]

I think the 2 models I have an issue with are stiched and Shenlong. 

 

Stiched have great stats for a 6 point model and Gamble your life isn't much of a gamble when you can pluck 13s out of your deck to almost auto win 

 

Shenlong has to much counter play, especially vs ressers. Being able to turn so much of there defensive tech in to a positive for him just invalidates so many resser masters in to him due to the threat of Shenlong 

[Tors]

I would rate the whole Chi mechanic as problematic; and would reduce it down to +1 and either drop the generation rate or declare use before flipping.

 

And tie McCabes Upgrades to his Keyword. He is very very good on his own, several other Keyword Minions just tip over the top with swords

[solkan]

 

2 hours ago, Squiptar said:

After an encounter with Yan Lo and Anna Lovelace, making my first suggestion.  When Anna can just freely kill their own models whatever the cost, and Yan Lo just summons them back in again at full health and unactivated, then we have an issue. (And hence spreading those previously locked up upgrades).

Let me know if I get the details of this scenario wrong.

• Toshiro (to pick one of the undead Reliquary models) goes out and does some stuff, and is wounded.
• Anna Lovelace uses Remote Detonator on Toshiro, killing it and due to Toshiro's Demise ability attaching Toshiro's Reliquary to some other friendly model X (who can't be an Ancestor model).
• Yan Lo activates, uses Rebuild Corpus, and replaces Model X with Toshiro.

Note that Rebuild Corpus isn't a "summon" effect, although I suppose the difference is entirely technical if your complaint is really "They brought the model back at full health after killing it."  

So what does Anna Lovelace have to do with this?  Her only role in the scenario appears to be that she can just straight out kill friendly undead models using the Remote Detonator bonus action.  

Is this the scenario/interactionss that you have concerns about?

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I believe because this is basically the exact same scenario as 1e where you have a model such as Izamu activating multiple times a turn that was abused so much they complexly reworked Yan Lo for 2e. And that mechanic wasn’t as good as it is now since you’ll get more movement out of it now, as well as sending your Gokudo across the board. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

The Lovelace combo seems ridiculous at first glance. I've not played against it yet, so not sure. It does help that as a replace effect, you can't get double the actions (if the model that dies to replace has already activated, the new model has already activated I believe). So you're not gaining any activations, you're just upgrading them. On top of that, you're using a master's action + a Lovelace bonus action + maybe a card, so action efficiency wise, it may not be that broken. Why not just attack with Yan Lo will be a question that comes up a lot when executing that combo.

Stitched together... I initially thought them broken, but their ability to flip damage like that is one of the more reliable ways for the crew to actually dish out damage, which it can struggle to do a bit when facing people who are cheating defensively. That said, I think it should definitely count as an attack action in some way/otherwise have effects (like incorporeal) that reduce attacks help against it. Could also tone the damage down to 2/3/4. Actually setting it up with a 13 is very hard to do unless you're structuring your whole crew to pull it off. Usually you're doing it with a 10 or 11, in which case it is a gamble still.

Zoraida's bonus action of discard hand/draw six for both players should be if she is the leader only (like Seamus has on his bonus action). Otherwise she's just too strong as a second master. Or they could get rid of second masters and the game wouldn't suffer for it.

[Squiptar]

As far as I was told with Anna lovelace- so yes she’s replacing the model, but then Yan Lo replaces using the Gokudo model-

So that gets placed on any board edge as it comes straight back if used to bring in a new model, rather than dying. He gets to re-use the model he’s “summoned” in because it’s now a new model. The upgrade gets moved onto another model, and on top of it all he draws 2 cards. 

Any time I got close to maybe removing a model he just does the trick again and it’s back with full wounds and all the focus’ etc of the model it replaced. 

Its bad enough that all the stuff in the crew has armour and pumps out shielded, but to be able to just come back full...

[Squiptar]

Absolutely agree on the stitched-  it’s not a gamble if you can just pluck a 13. Keep it thematic or drop the damage track.

And really not liking the dual-master either. There’s just 2 many exploits when Wyrd clearly had intended for 3e to be more thematically driven. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Squiptar said:

So that gets placed on any board edge as it comes straight back if used to bring in a new model, rather than dying. He gets to re-use the model he’s “summoned” in because it’s now a new model. The upgrade gets moved onto another model, and on top of it all he draws 2 cards. 

I'm not familiar with the crew, but.... He gets to reuse the Gokudo, as it's a new model (and you get a pass token because he summoned one). He gets to reuse the original model (like Izamu) as long as the original Gokudo hadn't activated yet, I believe. However, often the Gokudo will have activated to get in range of receiving the demise, I imagine.

The upgrade gets moved onto another model? I don't believe that's correct. The replace effect causes all upgrades (other than summon upgrades) to be discarded. Not to mention there's nothing on the upgrade that says it passes to a new model when the holder of the upgrade dies. So there may be some issues there.

The first thing to check when faced by something overpowered is whether you're applying all the rules correctly. I'm not sure, but it sounds like there may have been some mis-reading of rules there?

There's also likely a host of counterplay.

That said, it does sound like a strong interaction, but there should be a lot of things limiting how effective it is.

[Nikodemus]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not familiar with the crew, but.... He gets to reuse the Gokudo, as it's a new model (and you get a pass token because he summoned one). He gets to reuse the original model (like Izamu) as long as the original Gokudo hadn't activated yet, I believe. However, often the Gokudo will have activated to get in range of receiving the demise, I imagine.

Eh, if you plan ahead a bit you can move Gokudo pretty far on their own on a previous turn. There's some amount of movement shenanigans in the crew to move either Gokudo or relevant Ancestors in range. And the reliquary range is 8" which gives Yan Lo a lot of wiggle room.

[Ogid]

I think we should wait until some tournaments are played and more data can be gathered... there are a lot of powerful combinations in this game, let's wait and see the ones that overperform. I'm not a fan of getting rid of double master, the more ways you can adapt the better; however it's true that some of them may be too good as second masters. In those cases I think it'd be better to just limit their abilities when hired as second masters to make them worth their cost, but without overperforming.

 

Styched is a great model for his cost, that's true; but I don't see styched hired OOK everywhere. The gamble is one of his abilities so it's pretty normal he has the edge, having an ability that has the 50% change of damage your model would be pretty pointless. Also using fiendish gamble too much hurts Dreamer's late game potential, so there is a trade off there. There is a damage flip, so things like hard to wound or even Armor/shielded may be used to limit that ability. Also he is Nightmare, a keyword weak early but powerful late game; so if they are very good late game... well, that's their perk; but Nightmare doesn't have powerful 9SS summons. He is good, but I doubt he is broken.

Shenlong has answers for everything, and that hurts even more versus ressers where H2W is in a lot of models. I've not played versus him yet, but when he is out of chi a df5 model with only H2K doesn't seem that tough, he needs to go balls deeps, and his crew needs a ton of support models to make his chi machine work. It's about taking advantage of that, picking trigger denial, healing denial, bubble crews, models that may jump into the backline and kill the students/low river...

Yan Lo/Anna is very nasty indeed, but going head to head versus Yan-Lo isn't a good idea anyway, that crew is unkillable. In that scenario you just focus in schemes or attack the Gokudos, Anna or Yan Lo; attacking the models he can sacrifice and replace (Ancestors) isn't the best use of the resources. The more powerful thing about this one is the double activation... but Yan-Lo is trading 1 action for 2 from the replaced model (and 2 cards...). This one seems very good, but there are also other very nasty bubble crews out of there... It deserves a good playtest before thinking in swinging the bat.

 

About second masters:

I like the McCabe suggestion, being able to apply those buffs to every minion will have to break at some point (the Jorogumos with the sword are the first that I think off, but I'm sure there are others where it becomes too good, like tanky minions with life leech). Another consideration: This could limit the design of future minions of 2 entire factions, which isn't good. EDIT: Or just limiting them a bit to not shutting down that mechanic entirely, probably making "Paid with Trinkets" work only when he is the leader and his attachments Plentiful(1) would go a long way preventing shenanigans.

Zoraida is also maybe a little too good as a second master, limiting the draw could be one idea; but it would leave her without a bonus action (and the other player get the cards anyway). I'd like more limiting instead the power of her obey making ensorcer only work when she is the leader.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Squiptar said:

Any time I got close to maybe removing a model he just does the trick again and it’s back with full wounds and all the focus’ etc of the model it replaced. 

Its bad enough that all the stuff in the crew has armour and pumps out shielded, but to be able to just come back full...

Which is different how from you actually killing it and then your opponent just puts a new one in your face?

 

4 hours ago, Tors said:

I would rate the whole Chi mechanic as problematic; and would reduce it down to +1 and either drop the generation rate or declare use before flipping.

So you want to completely neuter Chi to the point of uselessness.

[Mycellanious]

I would like to volunteer the Augmented's bonus action, Power Transfer, for Errata:

Discard a Power Token. Friendly Construct only. Target gains a Power Token. Push the target up to 2".

I would simply like to change Friendly Construct Only -> Other Friendly Construct Only.

As it is written now, all the Augmented models (after a turn 1 where Hoff activates to pulse out Power Tokens) only ever use their bonus actions on themselves. And, this is a bonus action without cost. There are no cards flipped, and you discard then gain a power token so the net change is 0. Every Augmented model just gets a free 2" push during their activation, which is bonkers because it actually makes them into a very fast crew, it means they never have to disengage, it means you can never tie up any Augmented model in engagement, and it means you cant score Hold up, Take Prisoner, or Dig against them (which may or may not be an issue)

The people in my meta cant help but see this as an oversight, and that it was meant for a model to be moving another model and moving a power token

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I would like to volunteer the Augmented's bonus action, Power Transfer, for Errata:

Discard a Power Token. Friendly Construct only. Target gains a Power Token. Push the target up to 2".

I would simply like to change Friendly Construct Only -> Other Friendly Construct Only.

As it is written now, all the Augmented models (after a turn 1 where Hoff activates to pulse out Power Tokens) only ever use their bonus actions on themselves. And, this is a bonus action without cost. There are no cards flipped, and you discard then gain a power token so the net change is 0. Every Augmented model just gets a free 2" push during their activation, which is bonkers because it actually makes them into a very fast crew, it means they never have to disengage, it means you can never tie up any Augmented model in engagement, and it means you cant score Hold up, Take Prisoner, or Dig against them (which may or may not be an issue)

The people in my meta cant help but see this as an oversight, and that it was meant for a model to be moving another model and moving a power token

You absolutely can do all of those things, and you do it the same way you would do it if they didn't have power transfer. You wait until the model has activated.

[Mycellanious]

11 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You absolutely can do all of those things, and you do it the same way you would do it if they didn't have power transfer. You wait until the model has activated.

Right, but Transfer Power doesnt need to target itself. So it would need to be the last activation in the turn, or on a model far away from the bubble. Otherwise, another Augmented model can push the already activated model away

[CD1248]

I think Stiched get fixed by turning Gamble into an attack action. The fact that you never get the chance to resist the action is the problem I think.

Other than that, dual masters are definately a problem, but that could be patched by limiting it to one master in Gaining Grounds. I'm not sure the effort required to play errata whack-a-mole with each specific overtuned master combo is worth it.

[Thedeadclaw]

6 hours ago, dannydb said:

Stiched have great stats for a 6 point model and Gamble your life isn't much of a gamble when you can pluck 13s out of your deck to almost auto win 

This is a feature, not a glitch. There have been multiple threads talking about the most efficient way to use Lucid Dreaming, and the truth is that Lucid Dreaming is at is best with the majority of the crew using it and removing low and middling value cards. Taking the time to steal a 13 when it comes out just in case a Stitched Together needs it is risky and Gamble Your Life is the only big payoff. More often than not it looks more like "13 Mask, 13 Rams, 12 Crows" or similar on a Lucid Dreams flip and you decide to take advantage of the 13 Rams since you don't really want to be losing any of those cards. It's very seldom that you actually intentionally Lucid Dream away a 13, so there's still quite a bit of work to pull it off, but the Stitched Together still have Lynch's influence from last edition: they're huge cheats at cards. That's thematic and lore driven. It is all a feature that makes Stitched attractive to the Nightmare and Puppet crews. Honestly, they're abilities that are barely useful outside of those crews, so no, definitely not broken, especially since we're not seeing every tournament filled with Neverborn wins. Ressers could probably have some nobs turned and still be good; same with 10T; but competitively, hitting Neverborn or Guild would just wreck them based on the tournament data we have right now. They have a few good limited models but there just isn't enough for them to edge out the upper tier and middling factions on a competitive plane, at least not regularly.

[Tors]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

 

So you want to completely neuter Chi to the point of uselessness.

Yes, as useless as +1 to basically all duel totals is. I would be fine with +2 too, if the Crew would have most stats around 4. But as this isn't the case i think a majority of effective stat 7 Attacks/Resists is a little bit over the top.

[Tapdancer]

8 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

This is a feature, not a glitch. There have been multiple threads talking about the most efficient way to use Lucid Dreaming, and the truth is that Lucid Dreaming is at is best with the majority of the crew using it and removing low and middling value cards. Taking the time to steal a 13 when it comes out just in case a Stitched Together needs it is risky and Gamble Your Life is the only big payoff. More often than not it looks more like "13 Mask, 13 Rams, 12 Crows" or similar on a Lucid Dreams flip and you decide to take advantage of the 13 Rams since you don't really want to be losing any of those cards. It's very seldom that you actually intentionally Lucid Dream away a 13, so there's still quite a bit of work to pull it off, but the Stitched Together still have Lynch's influence from last edition: they're huge cheats at cards. That's thematic and lore driven. It is all a feature that makes Stitched attractive to the Nightmare and Puppet crews. Honestly, they're abilities that are barely useful outside of those crews, so no, definitely not broken, especially since we're not seeing every tournament filled with Neverborn wins. Ressers could probably have some nobs turned and still be good; same with 10T; but competitively, hitting Neverborn or Guild would just wreck them based on the tournament data we have right now. They have a few good limited models but there just isn't enough for them to edge out the upper tier and middling factions on a competitive plane, at least not regularly.

good analysis.  Its true Dreamer is top tier but he is far from dominant in the competitive scene.  Same goes for Shenlong.  There is top tier stuff in Arcanist, Bayou, Outcast and Resurrectionists.  This thread is premature.  There is hotness all over the place, the only thing that has proven bad for the competitive scene is double masters which is a shame but definitely is the case.

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Tors said:

Yes, as useless as +1 to basically all duel totals is. I would be fine with +2 too, if the Crew would have most stats around 4. But as this isn't the case i think a majority of effective stat 7 Attacks/Resists is a little bit over the top.

Except you want to reduce their ability to gain chi as well, so it would be no where near all duels just like it isn't a +2 to all duels right now, and forcing it to be used before you even flip along with those 2 changes would completely neuter the ability.

[Thedeadclaw]

22 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

There is hotness all over the place, the only thing that has proven bad for the competitive scene is double masters which is a shame but definitely is the case.

I don't think that's true either. More and more results from local communities that haven't banned duel masters are coming in that are showing that duel master can be a liability in less skilled hands and that even between two highly skilled opponents duel master isn't necessary to win. I think it's very powerful and am definitely keeping an eye on it in our own meta as there is one player who is one of (if not the) best player in the area who is dead set on only running duel master resser lists, but duel master just does less in some factions. Arcanists only have a couple of good duel master combos, and Neverborn frequently needs too much in keyword support to run a competetively viable duel master list. Guild is great with it but frankly needs all the competitive help it can get. Outcasts are usually pretty middle ground, and Bayou generally doesn't want duel masters. Really it's just Ressers and 10T that benefit a lot from duel master as they have the most masters that can work independently of their own crew.

I'm open to seeing that proven wrong, but that's what the areas around me where my players are coming from has been supporting so far.

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I would like to volunteer the Augmented's bonus action, Power Transfer, for Errata:

Discard a Power Token. Friendly Construct only. Target gains a Power Token. Push the target up to 2".

I would simply like to change Friendly Construct Only -> Other Friendly Construct Only.

As it is written now, all the Augmented models (after a turn 1 where Hoff activates to pulse out Power Tokens) only ever use their bonus actions on themselves. And, this is a bonus action without cost. There are no cards flipped, and you discard then gain a power token so the net change is 0. Every Augmented model just gets a free 2" push during their activation, which is bonkers because it actually makes them into a very fast crew, it means they never have to disengage, it means you can never tie up any Augmented model in engagement, and it means you cant score Hold up, Take Prisoner, or Dig against them (which may or may not be an issue)

The people in my meta cant help but see this as an oversight, and that it was meant for a model to be moving another model and moving a power token

Have you not seen Mercenary and their "Battle Tempo"?  It's not even an action!

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, CD1248 said:

I think Stiched get fixed by turning Gamble into an attack action. The fact that you never get the chance to resist the action is the problem I think.

But that would just make the ability yet another generic attack action (and a very bad one having to pass the attack flip and also flip to see if you damage yourself lol), having tools to attack for different angles is necessary. Gamble your life is as problematic as damaging pulses or shockwaves could be (and a great tool versus some kind of defensive tech). But in this case it may backfire, also is worth to note that fiendish gamble is once per activation.

[Bakunin]

Gamble Your Life basically has a resist, by making both models flip a card to see who takes the damage

[Tors]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Except you want to reduce their ability to gain chi as well, so it would be no where near all duels just like it isn't a +2 to all duels right now, and forcing it to be used before you even flip along with those 2 changes would completely neuter the ability.

A Dozen Chi a turn is no problem. More of you give those Monks time to set up.