Let's get Presidential (Ironsides/M&SU Tactica)

[Douglas Scoundrels]

1 minute ago, Plaag said:

main tonis mechanic is bring it-other models support it, the only one model that u really need in keyword is howard

I would disagree. I'd argue the main mechanics of the Keyword is 'Unionized' alongside Grit/IWA. Bring It is just a massive benefit to the bubble playstyle the crew trends towards.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

I would disagree. I'd argue the main mechanics of the Keyword is 'Unionized' alongside Grit/IWA. Bring It is just a massive benefit to the bubble playstyle the crew trends towards.

unionized is a weak ability, i also play without using it-u just need to kill all enemy stuff very quick, so fast howard with some focuses and toni with 5-7 tokens 1 turn on a position can do anything

[Douglas Scoundrels]

2 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

You could also just take a Miner into your Mei Crew since Pit Traps and Spark's Aura stack. Plus you have cheaper Vent Steam Models

One cheaper vent steam in the porkchop. Howard brings a good amount of synergy to M&SU so he's a good bring for other reasons.

At this point we're arguing whether a Mei crew almost fully dedicated to this hazardous strategy vs a typical Ironsides crew with a 6 stone versatile. Sure the Mei crew has more potential for hazardous damage but your banking a lot on it winning you the game.

[Mycellanious]

1 minute ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

One cheaper vent steam in the porkchop. Howard brings a good amount of synergy to M&SU so he's a good bring for other reasons.

At this point we're arguing whether a Mei crew almost fully dedicated to this hazardous strategy vs a typical Ironsides crew with a 6 stone versatile. Sure the Mei crew has more potential for hazardous damage but your banking a lot on it winning you the game.

I don't even think we are arguing about it. It's just and example of Toni working in a crew without her keyword. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

One cheaper vent steam in the porkchop. Howard brings a good amount of synergy to M&SU so he's a good bring for other reasons.

At this point we're arguing whether a Mei crew almost fully dedicated to this hazardous strategy vs a typical Ironsides crew with a 6 stone versatile. Sure the Mei crew has more potential for hazardous damage but your banking a lot on it winning you the game.

one game i killed sonnia with 1 bringit

[Douglas Scoundrels]

5 minutes ago, Plaag said:

unionized is a weak ability, i also play without using it-u just need to kill all enemy stuff very quick, so fast howard with some focuses and toni with 5-7 tokens 1 turn on a position can do anything

I'd disagree but at this point we're just at odds playstyle-wise. I prefer a tanky crew.

[Douglas Scoundrels]

3 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I don't even think we are arguing about it. It's just and example of Toni working in a crew without her keyword. 

I was focusing on the 'better in a Mei crew than her own' part, is all.

[Douglas Scoundrels]

2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

one game i killed sonnia with 1 bringit

Neat.

[Math Mathonwy]

So would this make for a fine starting point for a Toni crew:

• Toni (5 Pool)
• Mouse
• Howard
• SS Miner x2
• Coryphee Duet
• Arcane Emissary

I have a Toni crew from M2e but due to the keyword reshuffling and such my collection of keyword models for her is Toni, Mouse, Captain, Amina, Howard, and one Steamfitter so I had kinda resigned to never playing her again (similar to my Sonnia, LJ, McM, Lilith, Collodi, Nicodem, Ramos, Tara, and probably a couple of other Masters that I'm forgetting...) but now I'm kinda seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. 

[dannydb]

I mean if you want to play the Plaag way sure..... I think tonis streanth is her tankness which comes from unionised and Fitz, especially if its a pool where you don't need to break her bubble, Howard makes fighting in the bubble a plain, captain protects the bubble from shooting, amina protects the bubble from combat and Fitzsimmons just protects the bubble from damage, so generally I always run Fitz and then run captain or amina 

 

Then as your in the bubble and this is a combat crew you want some healing so medi bot with magical training is nice for bedside manner and it's heals and takes the pressure off mouse 

 

Then it's fill in from there 

 

Yes you can play the Plaag allstar list but then why both playing a synergy master at all which is what ironsides is, you might as well play colette or lady j or mccabe or some other master that doesn't give a dam about their keyword, unionised and injured workers act art part of what makes toni great, and if you come in with the idea of just abusing bring it and hazardous, what do you do when your hazardous producer dies? 

[Peturd]

And the things that ignore hazardous, or have huge WP. Or are trying to out scheme and out maneuver you.

Tonis is a sword. Plaag stabs people before they can stab him. But it also works to dodge, parry and counter attack with a sword.

Plaag is in a tough meta, and faces the top players in vassal. If you don’t like his style list: Try the other opinions here where you play. If it works great. If not try his. It’s a fun game. So just try everything!

[Peturd]

So, how is everyone feeling about gg2? My knee jerk was it would be bad for Toni but the more I settle in on it, there are definitely some good pools for the M&SU. Union miners and steamfitters might have a use, which is nice. Miner can get detonate charges so easy. Versatiles help of course. I’ve like Toni in Leylines in the past, same as turf war. I could even see break the line sometimes. Just not symbols.

Thoughts?!

[Jam Warrior]

Cheeky to ask, but what do you fear as a Toni player?  What can effectively deal with her?

I play Lucius and my regular opponent as Toni rips through my crew.  She just seems to keep piling up the adrenaline to be simultaneously un-killable, a killing machine and often with pushes and a 4th action for mad range.

Attacking her just fuels up the devastating counter punch and obviously punching her very quickly hurts you more than her.

Does she have a kryptonite beyond shooting her lots?

[LinenMusician]

15 minutes ago, Jam Warrior said:

Cheeky to ask, but what do you fear as a Toni player?  What can effectively deal with her?

I play Lucius and my regular opponent as Toni rips through my crew.  She just seems to keep piling up the adrenaline to be simultaneously un-killable, a killing machine and often with pushes and a 4th action for mad range.

Attacking her just fuels up the devastating counter punch and obviously punching her very quickly hurts you more than her.

Does she have a kryptonite beyond shooting her lots?

Toni doesnt like stun - it disables her triggers (including df), so - no more adrenaline (but she still stays tanky)

[Douglas Scoundrels]

24 minutes ago, Jam Warrior said:

Cheeky to ask, but what do you fear as a Toni player?  What can effectively deal with her?

I play Lucius and my regular opponent as Toni rips through my crew.  She just seems to keep piling up the adrenaline to be simultaneously un-killable, a killing machine and often with pushes and a 4th action for mad range.

Attacking her just fuels up the devastating counter punch and obviously punching her very quickly hurts you more than her.

Does she have a kryptonite beyond shooting her lots?

Stunned. Pulling the group apart. Targeting things besides Df/Wp. Blasts. Ignoring them.

[admiralvorkraft]

Lucius has a much better ability to play wide than Ironsides does. Lean into ranged and mobility superiority and kill the non-ironsides parts of the crew. 

[Jinn]

34 minutes ago, Jam Warrior said:

Cheeky to ask, but what do you fear as a Toni player?  What can effectively deal with her?

I play Lucius and my regular opponent as Toni rips through my crew.  She just seems to keep piling up the adrenaline to be simultaneously un-killable, a killing machine and often with pushes and a 4th action for mad range.

Attacking her just fuels up the devastating counter punch and obviously punching her very quickly hurts you more than her.

Does she have a kryptonite beyond shooting her lots?

It's definitely ignoring the bubble that she fears the most. She is absurdly strong in the bubble, and if she dives out of it she can still hit like a truck and tank well but she can't do it all game, especially against something like an executioner. If you can outscheme her and punish the models that leave her bubble then you should have a good chance of winning.

Also, the counter punch was heavily nerfed in the latest Errata/FAQ as it now includes the fate modifier ( or  based on difference in duel total) of the attack that generated it. This means that if your duel total is within 6 of hers (winning or losing) she will be at  to damage on her "Good Shot, My Turn" trigger, which is much less threatening than a straight 2/3/5.

[Jam Warrior]

9 minutes ago, Jinn said:

It's definitely ignoring the bubble that she fears the most. She is absurdly strong in the bubble, and if she dives out of it she can still hit like a truck and tank well but she can't do it all game, especially against something like an executioner. If you can outscheme her and punish the models that leave her bubble then you should have a good chance of winning.

Also, the counter punch was heavily nerfed in the latest Errata/FAQ as it now includes the fate modifier ( or  based on difference in duel total) of the attack that generated it. This means that if your duel total is within 6 of hers (winning or losing) she will be at  to damage on her "Good Shot, My Turn" trigger, which is much less threatening than a straight 2/3/5.

Ooh.  That’s worth knowing.  Where is it in the FAQ? I’m not spotting it.

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, Jam Warrior said:

Ooh.  That’s worth knowing.  Where is it in the FAQ? I’m not spotting it.

Its section 1 question 2. 

It was always the case that you should have applied the accuracy modifier to her damage flip from the df trigger, but not everyone realised it. 

[Jinn]

12 minutes ago, Adran said:

Its section 1 question 2. 

It was always the case that you should have applied the accuracy modifier to her damage flip from the df trigger, but not everyone realised it. 

I don't think it's quite fair to say it was always the case. Most people didn't run triggers as inheriting the accuracy modifier of the action that generated them, and most of those triggers that were natively straight flips stated they couldn't be cheated likely because they were originally intended to be run that way. Wyrd often adds or changes rules using FAQ, which is what lead to that whole Ricochet debacle.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Jinn said:

I don't think it's quite fair to say it was always the case. Most people didn't run triggers as inheriting the accuracy modifier of the action that generated them, and most of those triggers that were natively straight flips stated they couldn't be cheated likely because they were originally intended to be run that way. Wyrd often adds or changes rules using FAQ, which is what lead to that whole Ricochet debacle.

I don't know how you played, but I've been applying the accuracy modifier to defensive damage triggers since the first edition (when I learnt my main opponent was a Lady Justice fan). When looking at 3rd ed rules during the beta I didn't see anything change that, and so carried on playing it that way. 

I think Toni has an uncheatable damage flip because of how easy it would be for you to make it a straight flip as its after resolving, not after succeeding (which is what most damage df triggers are).  So I do think its fair to say thus was always the intended rule. That's not the same as saying its the way all players played it. 

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I don't know how you played, but I've been applying the accuracy modifier to defensive damage triggers since the first edition (when I learnt my main opponent was a Lady Justice fan). When looking at 3rd ed rules during the beta I didn't see anything change that, and so carried on playing it that way. 

I think Toni has an uncheatable damage flip because of how easy it would be for you to make it a straight flip as its after resolving, not after succeeding (which is what most damage df triggers are).  So I do think its fair to say thus was always the intended rule. That's not the same as saying its the way all players played it. 

That still doesn't explain other "straight" damage flips that aren't after resolving, and yet are uncheatable without much reason to be now that they're no more different than any other damage flip. Look at Cage Fighter, Soul Ward, or the Ricochet trigger, they're all the same.

Another way that FAQ was weird is that it made it so triggers like My Loyal Servant inherit the Accuracy fate modifier as well, which is just downright unsatisfying and lame in my opinion. Having a  on a situational 1/2/3 healing flip really doesn't seem at all intended and I'd be surprised if more than a small handful of people ran it that way before the FAQ.

Before that FAQ it was at best ambiguous as to whether variable flips generated by triggers counted as being "the result of an opposed duel", especially given how counter intuitive (and nonsensical) it is for your punch back to get stronger the better your enemy did in hitting you in some cases! With your model effectively getting their accuracy modifier. I think it's unfair to say that people who ran it the other way before the FAQ dropped were simply mistaken given the fact that the FAQ is often used for balance changes and new rules, such as the botched "another" ruling that lead to quite a few problems just to nerf Nekima.

Using the FAQ for balance changes is pretty reasonable given that it avoids having to reprint any cards, but I'd still prefer not to treat all the rulings there as simply the one and only answers to questions when many of them are intentionally decisions made after the fact that aren't fully supported in the rules as written.

[midwifecrisis]

I played Toni into a Guild Lucius that used Clockwork Traps pretty effectively to keep her tied up. Very obnoxious little models.

[JemmyVonJude]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:27 PM, Adran said:

Its section 1 question 2. 

It was always the case that you should have applied the accuracy modifier to her damage flip from the df trigger, but not everyone realised it. 

soooo, that means any focus tony uses for that defense also gives her a bonus flip to the damage of her defensive trigger, right ?

[theamazingmrg]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:29 PM, midwifecrisis said:

I played Toni into a Guild Lucius that used Clockwork Traps pretty effectively to keep her tied up. Very obnoxious little models.

Yep.  As a Basse player, I love them.  Perfect for murdering a Guild Steward with too!

 

1 hour ago, JemmyVonJude said:

soooo, that means any focus tony uses for that defense also gives her a bonus flip to the damage of her defensive trigger, right ?

Yes, that's right.  A bonus to the flip and any resulting damage flips.