Crooligans: By Your Side + Fading

[Figgyfigs]

If a Crooligan uses By Your Side, they discard a card and then place.

The Crooligan's Fading ability lets them remove a marker within 2" after discarding a card.

My question is: when using By Your Side, does the Fading ability kick in from the Crooligan's starting location, or from their new location? I'm not sure when to apply Fading.

Thanks!

[Kadeton]

You're not likely to get a definitive answer from the designers here, those generally come in FAQs.

This is my personal take on it. Breaking down the timing in detail:

Crooligan

The Crooligan's activation begins. By Your Side goes into effect, and the Crooligan discards a card to place itself within 2" of a suitable model. The discard triggers Fading (Footprints). How is this resolved?

By Your Side has an effect (discard and place). In the course of resolving that effect, another effect (Fading) is created. Sequential Effects (p. 34) tells us what to do in this situation:

Quote

In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving on to any additional effect.

So we fully resolve By Your Side's effect (placing the Crooligan) then move onto resolving the additional effect (removing a marker). The Crooligan removes a marker from its new position.

Rabble Riser

The Rabble Riser makes an attack, then discards a card to Flurry and make another attack. The discard triggers Fading (Misfit). How is this resolved?

Flurry occurs "After resolving", and it has an effect (discard and make another attack). When an Action is generated by an effect, Actions Generated By Effects (p. 34) tells us what to do:

Quote

When this happens, the new Action is always resolved after the previous Action is completely resolved, including any "After Resolving" effects, but before any other new Action can be taken.

So when resolving Flurry, the Rabble Riser discards a card, which creates a new effect (Fading). The attack that Flurry generates has to wait until all other effects are resolved, including any effects that those effects generate. The Rabble Riser gains Focus +1 before it makes the additional attack.

[Fetid Strumpet]

New location.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Figgyfigs said:

That's one and one so far

I'm inclined to read it your way, as I am with other Fading abilities. The Fading effect happens as you discard, then you continue ahead.

The difference is that I have no idea what logic could be used to claim that the marker removal happens from the new location.  🤔

You would literally have to try to resolve the effects backwards for that to happen, going counter to all of the rules for things like paying the prices for actions and triggers.

There are a few placement effects and their side effects in this game that end up with similar side effect sequences, and I think it's just a case of people wanting the more convenient resolution sequence in spite of the rules not making it that way.

[solkan]

44 minutes ago, Franchute said:

Does this mean a punk zombie would get the focus condition after the flurry attack?

That's a good example of why it can't work the way Fetid Strumpet is claiming it does.

The sequence goes like so:

1.  Rabble Riser goes to use Flurry and discards a card

2.  Fading (Misfit) resolves and the model gains Focused +1

(Bonus point:  At this point, Pandora with her Misery and Opportunist (Any Condition) would be able to use Misery against the Rabble Riser

3.  Now that discarding the card has been resolved, the Rabble Riser continues resolving Flurry and finally declares the action.

"Do X to do Y" is not some sort of atomic effect that delays all of the various "When X" and "After X" effects until after the Y happens.

You do X, resolve the things that happen because you've done X, and then you try to do Y.

 

[thewrathchilde]

In the timing section it discusses abilities and affects and After. The Fading ability on the Crooligan would resolve after the event that triggered it is resolved. 

So in this case the discard for By Your Side and place would be completely resolved before the marker removal would occur as a result of fading which happens after.

This is different from Flurry on the Riser because that is generating a subsequent or separate action. So for the Riser you would discard and then be able to resolve the After portion of its fading before you go through the action decoration and resolution for the subsequent attack.

The two section in the rules that I base this on is the ability timing section which discusses the After portion for abilities that are triggered ASA result of something else. The other rules section is on the following column where it talks about sequential effects. 

Either way I would prefer to see an official ruling from @Kyle or another party that can provide insight into what their intent was.

[Figgyfigs]

3 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

New location.

That's coming from the Sequential Effects bit in the rulebook?

[solkan]

As far as I can tell, it has to be within 2" of where it was when it discarded the card, and doesn't get delayed until after the place effect.

"Perform X to do Y" should still require you to do the operations in the sequence:

• Perform X
• Resolve any effects that happen after performing X
• Do Y
• Resolve any effects that happen after doing Y

 

[Figgyfigs]

That's one and one so far

I'm inclined to read it your way, as I am with other Fading abilities. The Fading effect happens as you discard, then you continue ahead.

[Franchute]

12 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

New location.

Does this mean a punk zombie would get the focus condition after the flurry attack?

[Trample]

I believe the Crooligan's timing falls under simultaneous effects, which gives them the opportunity to resolve them in the order they choose. By your side and the fading ability don't have a specific timing order that differentiates the two, so the Crooligan's controller can Choose how to resolve those as the active player. 

[Franchute]

10 hours ago, solkan said:

That's a good example of why it can't work the way Fetid Strumpet is claiming it does.

The sequence goes like so:

1.  Rabble Riser goes to use Flurry and discards a card

2.  Fading (Misfit) resolves and the model gains Focused +1

(Bonus point:  At this point, Pandora with her Misery and Opportunist (Any Condition) would be able to use Misery against the Rabble Riser

3.  Now that discarding the card has been resolved, the Rabble Riser continues resolving Flurry and finally declares the action.

"Do X to do Y" is not some sort of atomic effect that delays all of the various "When X" and "After X" effects until after the Y happens.

You do X, resolve the things that happen because you've done X, and then you try to do Y.

 

Is this "actions generated by effects" on page 34? That section indeed seems pretty clear to me.

[Figgyfigs]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:05 PM, solkan said:

The difference is that I have no idea what logic could be used to claim that the marker removal happens from the new location.  🤔

You would literally have to try to resolve the effects backwards for that to happen, going counter to all of the rules for things like paying the prices for actions and triggers.

There are a few placement effects and their side effects in this game that end up with similar side effect sequences, and I think it's just a case of people wanting the more convenient resolution sequence in spite of the rules not making it that way.

I feel like this is the correct reading, but can you support it with a quote from the rulebook?

[Fetid Strumpet]

@thewrathchilde articulated my interpretation of it. I’m happy to be wrong if Kyle or Matt post otherwise, but until then I’m personally ruling it this.

[Figgyfigs]

I guess I just don't understand why a place would be treated differently than an attack. They're both things that happen after you discard, so I feel like the same reading should apply to both. You discard, then perform a follow-up—we just need to know with 100% certainty where to apply the Fading effect.

If Kyle or somebody could weigh in here with an official take, that would be grand

[CD1248]

@Figgyfigs The reasoning there is that Actions and Abilities are specific rule terms that have their own timing restrictions. Generated Actions (such as a Flurry attack) have a specific timing (after the previous action has completely resolved), while Abilities have whatever timing is specified in the Ability.

In the case of a "When X do Y" Ability, the timing is "When X". If it was supposed to happen at some time other than as soon as the "When X" is satisfied it would need to specify that.

[Figgyfigs]

I don't mean to be dense, and I'm sorry if I am, but I don't understand why these are different. The Flurry effect takes place after the previous melee attack Action is resolved, sure, but that has nothing to do with the discard timing. For RRs and Archie and their Flurry, we're beginning at a point in time after the previous Action has already been resolved.

In both cases, for Flurry and By Your Side, the discard is part of the Ability, and it's written the same -- "...it may discard a card to...".

What's doing my head in is why you guys feel that in one case, you can hold off on the Fading, but in the other case, it kicks in right when you discard, when the language of both Abilities is the same. "Discard a card to do X".

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and from a gameplay perspective, I'd prefer for the Crooligan's Fading to occur after the move, so you can set them up for marker removal by positioning their anchor pieces effectively.

In any case, I'd really like to see an official ruling here, since so far in this thread, I've gotten three different takes: for Crooligans, Fading happens after the BYS Place, before it, or player's choice.

[solkan]

44 minutes ago, Figgyfigs said:

I don't mean to be dense, and I'm sorry if I am, but I don't understand why these are different. The Flurry effect takes place after the previous melee attack Action is resolved, sure, but that has nothing to do with the discard timing. For RRs and Archie and their Flurry, we're beginning at a point in time after the previous Action has already been resolved.

In both cases, for Flurry and By Your Side, the discard is part of the Ability, and it's written the same -- "...it may discard a card to...".

What's doing my head in is why you guys feel that in one case, you can hold off on the Fading, but in the other case, it kicks in right when you discard, when the language of both Abilities is the same. "Discard a card to do X".

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and from a gameplay perspective, I'd prefer for the Crooligan's Fading to occur after the move, so you can set them up for marker removal by positioning their Anchor pieces effectively.

In any case, I'd really like to see an official ruling here, since so far in this thread, I've gotten three different takes: for Crooligans, Fading happens after the BYS Place, before it, or player's choice.

As far as I can tell, the opposition reasoning concerning Flurry is as follows:

The Flurry ability is specified as an "After Resolving" effect, so it's technically resolving during the last part of the action.  So when you discard the card, you queue up the repeated attack action instead of resolving it immediately, and that action won't be resolved until all of the other side effects, and n-generational side effects, of the action are resolved.

So the attack generated by Flurry gets resolved sequentially after the "After discarding" effect, in spite of their insistence that "Discard a card to ____" resolves the "_____" before any applicable "After discarding" effects.

It's the same reason that if you perform a charge and then go into hazardous terrain, what happens is:

• Declare charge and push into hazardous terrain.  Choose whether or not to generate the attack.
• The Charge action ends, and the model suffers the effects of the hazardous terrain.
• The generated attack gets declared and resolved.
• The model suffers the effects of the hazardous terrain (again) because it resolved an action in hazardous terrain.

instead of a messier sequence like this which would have happened if action resolution nested:

• Declare the charge and push into hazardous terrain.
• Declare the attack from the charge
• Resolve the effects of hazardous terrain on the model due to the attack
• Resolve the effects of hazardous terrain on the model due to the charge action itself

 

[Figgyfigs]

So the discarding is considered part of the effect? I was looking at two distinct stages -- discard a card, gain an effect -- which is why I thought Fading would trigger immediately.

Anyways, thanks all for your input. At this point, I'll go with the moderator's take, and hopefully we get an official ruling sometime as well.

Thanks again!

EDIT: As a parting gift, enjoy this song that's been popping into my head every single time I read or think about that Crooligan ability.

[Sagrit]

Sorry for necroposting, but i must ask:

1. Can Crooligan discard a card for By Your Side in situation, when there are no non-Minion Forgotten on the table anymore? Just to trigger Fading.

2. Can Crooligan discard a card for By Your Side when he's holdin loadstone and can't be Placed?

[Maniacal_cackle]

32 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

Sorry for necroposting, but i must ask:

1. Can Crooligan discard a card for By Your Side in situation, when there are no non-Minion Forgotten on the table anymore? Just to trigger Fading.

2. Can Crooligan discard a card for By Your Side when he's holdin loadstone and can't be Placed?

I would assume yes to both. Presumably it attempts the place and fails. Same as you can flurry even if you're not able to resolve the attack. Although with Flurry you have to declare a target perhaps..?

I'm not sure!

It won't be very relevant very often though as the Crooligan's bonus action does the same thing but better. But in those times where there's multiple enemy scheme markers, could matter, so can see it mattering in some matchups.

[doubleW]

Necropost again  

Does a crooligan get damage from hazardous terrain/ vent steam for leaving it using the by your side ability?

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, doubleW said:

Necropost again  

Does a crooligan get damage from hazardous terrain/ vent steam for leaving it using the by your side ability?

Yes, moving via place is still movement.

As far as I know, the only thing that isn't movement is leaving the table (burying or dying).

[Jinn]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yes, moving via place is still movement.

As far as I know, the only thing that isn't movement is leaving the table (burying or dying).

And entering the table (deployment, summoning, or unburying). Movement is defined as changing your location and/or being affected by a movement effect.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Jinn said:

And entering the table (deployment, summoning, or unburying). Movement is defined as changing your location and/or being affected by a movement effect.

I was under the impression that arriving to the table was movement as well. Do you know where in the rules it clarifies that? I know in the initial part that they say models can never move off a table.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

And entering the table (deployment, summoning, or unburying). Movement is defined as changing your location and/or being affected by a movement effect.

Summon and unbury are both place effects, which is movement.