M3e Kirai - I am lost

[olterman]

So I have a kirai crew from old and want to get started playing M3e. I put together my Kirai crew late in m2e and never played her also I am still a beginner when it comes to Malifaux in general.

What is a good starting list for 50SS and what extra models do I need for summons? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I play against a Kirai player regularly. I don't know the keyword that well, but have some insights from playing against. Some of my thoughts (to be taken with a grain of salt)

• Summoning goryo is hugely impactful, make sure to do it sometimes.
• Your totem can be brought back easily, and doesn't stop you from summoning other stuff. It's okay to be a bit aggressive (but not stupid) with it.
• Have plenty of soulstones in your cache so you can use them for the crows trigger necessary to summon.
• Seishin are insane, as are the other models that can do walk actions for your crew. Between summons and extra move actions, your crew is highly mobile. Abuse this.
• Shikome or whatever the little harpy things are great scheme runners. They're fast, flying, and can hold their own in a fight.
• Summon based on what is useful for the situation. Late game that often means whatever scores you points, but early game it often means maxing out the strength of your crew (summoning your second goryo).
• It takes a lot of resources to kill your models, and then you can summon them back! Don't be stupid with them, but also don't be afraid to lose them.
• Keep your master/henchmen/etc safe. They mostly seem to be strong utility, so have them buffing the rest of your crew while the expendable minions hold the lines.

Just my thoughts, anyway!

[olterman]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I play against a Kirai player regularly. I don't know the keyword that well, but have some insights from playing against. Some of my thoughts (to be taken with a grain of salt)

• Summoning goryo is hugely impactful, make sure to do it sometimes.
• Your totem can be brought back easily, and doesn't stop you from summoning other stuff. It's okay to be a bit aggressive (but not stupid) with it.
• Have plenty of soulstones in your cache so you can use them for the crows trigger necessary to summon.
• Seishin are insane, as are the other models that can do walk actions for your crew. Between summons and extra move actions, your crew is highly mobile. Abuse this.
• Shikome or whatever the little harpy things are great scheme runners. They're fast, flying, and can hold their own in a fight.
• Summon based on what is useful for the situation. Late game that often means whatever scores you points, but early game it often means maxing out the strength of your crew (summoning your second goryo).
• It takes a lot of resources to kill your models, and then you can summon them back! Don't be stupid with them, but also don't be afraid to lose them.
• Keep your master/henchmen/etc safe. They mostly seem to be strong utility, so have them buffing the rest of your crew while the expendable minions hold the lines.

Just my thoughts, anyway!

Great gameplay points, still holding out for a basic starting list, I never played a summoner so I am uncertain what to actually include to start with and what to leave out to summon it later 

[Adran]

Summonable models for her are

Goryo, Onryo, Gaki, Seishin, Shikome., drowned, (Ikaryu).

Over all its hard to offer a list to learn with, because everyone learns differently. I generally recommend building your list to try and achieve your objectives.

But whilst learning, its often easier to make use of a fairly fixed list.

 

A reasonable starter list that you ought to have the models for is

Kirai

Ikiryu

Datsu ba

Francis

5 Seishin

2 Onryu

2 Gaki

8 Cache

It gives you a decent amount of use to start with,. You also still have a good range of summonable models (if in doubt summon the most expensive thing you can with the card in your hand). I haven't suggested any upgrades because while you are learning you might not want added complications.  Its a lot of activations, so you are probably going to give out a lot of pass tokens. If you are finding that is a problem, drop several seishin for a Shikome or Goryo.

It should let you learn what the basic Urami models do, which will help you learn what you want to summon in at the right time. Once you know that its a lot easier to work out what you wan tto start with, and what you might want to summon in as you go along.

(If you already own other Resserectionist models you could consider putting them in, but I wouldn't go out and buy something until you really know what you want).

 

[olterman]

Is hanged still a good model with Kirai? and is he worth it at the added cost? Also what about the carrion effigy?

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I wouldn’t run the list above, as you’ll be handing initiative to the opposing player pretty much from turn 1.

Hanged don’t have any apparent synergy with Kirai. Kirai’s buffs, healing, defenses, and movement tricks all involve her keyword, Urami, whichever Hanged are not. That isn’t to say a Hanged would be terrible with her, just that it wouldn’t get any synergistic benefit.

Carrion Effigy in her crew is a resilient scheme runner, or a way to hopefully get a cheaper Emissary on turn 3. Neither of which are super good for her since the majority of her models aren’t undead the heal from the effigy isn’t really useful.

[olterman]

22 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I wouldn’t run the list above, as you’ll be handing initiative to the opposing player pretty much from turn 1.

Hanged don’t have any apparent synergy with Kirai. Kirai’s buffs, healing, defenses, and movement tricks all involve her keyword, Urami, whichever Hanged are not. That isn’t to say a Hanged would be terrible with her, just that it wouldn’t get any synergistic benefit.

Carrion Effigy in her crew is a resilient scheme runner, or a way to hopefully get a cheaper Emissary on turn 3. Neither of which are super good for her since the majority of her models aren’t undead the heal from the effigy isn’t really useful.

so what list would you suggest as a starter list for kirai? 

[Clement]

When Kirai is in her "zone", I've found she's pretty often coughing up initiative anyway.  (Seishin are great support pieces who protect Kirai beautifully.)  Having said that, I'm a firm believer that even summoners should bring a functional crew at the get go, since depending on your summmoning mechanic to make the functional parts will inevitably lead to disaster.  My Kirai core looks like this:

Kirai

 -The Whisper

Datsue Ba

Ikiryo

Francis Kitchener

2x Onryo

2x Seishin

That gives you 20 extra points to throw around depending on strat/scheme.   It should be spent on no more then 2 other models.  Ideally one should be something sort of beater-ish.   Good choices here would be Goryo, Dead Rider, or Archie.

[IamW]

What do you guys think of Jakuuna? She seems like a good model with stat7 Lure and Hazardous especially with the healing support a Urami Crew can bring. Opinions?

[Clement]

2 hours ago, IamW said:

What do you guys think of Jakuuna? She seems like a good model with stat7 Lure and Hazardous especially with the healing support a Urami Crew can bring. Opinions?

She could do good work holding a zone, and definitely makes you rethink Drowned and maybe eating the cost to hire Hanged.   My real beef with her is that torment is a really great feature that she'll have a hard time getting any use out of without more of Jack Daw's kit (either a hanged or Jack himself).

Come to think of it, I wonder if the two were to be run together, who would you put in charge?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Jack if you are pairing them. Jack’s model’s need a saturation point of their own models to get actual work from their synergistic mechanics, Kirai doesn’t, since she has minimal synergy with her crew.

I don’t hire Jaakuna most of the time because she’s basically a Lure bot, and I find  Lure is massively overrated in 3e. I think too much of the mentality from 2e bled over and a wider view wasn’t taken to what the change in mechanics actually meant. And that’s especially  true of a lure with no built in triggers, or triggers in general. Additionally, at least in Kirai’s crew, I tend to find her 1 to 2 stones overcoasted. I haven’t played Jack or have much interest in doing so, so I can’t comment on her

[Gloomy]

Yeah I don't know if she's necessary in Kirai but I take her every time with Jack and she never disappoints. The tormented are slow and she's great for dragging victims in

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Kirai's crew starts to run smoothly once you put Adversary here and there and keep it between turns. Jaakuna's main drawback imo is that she has no way to give that condition out.

[Paddywhack]

On 6/18/2019 at 1:03 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

I don’t hire Jaakuna most of the time because she’s basically a Lure bot, and I find  Lure is massively overrated in 3e. I think too much of the mentality from 2e bled over and a wider view wasn’t taken to what the change in mechanics actually meant. And that’s especially  true of a lure with no built in triggers, or triggers in general. Additionally, at least in Kirai’s crew, I tend to find her 1 to 2 stones overcoasted. I haven’t played Jack or have much interest in doing so, so I can’t comment on her

Wow, yeah. I hadn't realized she was 8SS - same as a Hanged! I don't see how she is worth 8SS at all. At least needs a built in trigger on her attack. Preferably a blast on her min damage Projected Voice could give her some utility with a mask in hand. And why no triggers at all on Lure? She definitely moved to the back of the painting line again. Here's hoping a final tweak happened from closed to print and we'll be pleasantly surprised come the 28th. 

oooh.. On Your Heals trigger for Lure with her Drowning Aura up. That might be worth 8SS...

[thewrathchilde]

Kirai (0), Ikiryo (0), Dead Rider (11), Datsue Ba (9), Francis (6), Goryo (8), Onryo (5), Seishin (2), Seishin (2) + 7SS

 

 A lot of times I don’t start with a Goryo in the main list but he definitely offers a lot. There are some things you can play around with that are easy swaps- convert Goryo (or Onryo) to Sloth, convert Onryo to Shikome.

A lot of times I will take Killer Instinct on Kirai but when I do I usually run the Emissary instead of the Rider. 

[DerSkalde]

Why Killer Instinct on Kirai? I played her with GST and The W and find them very interesting. But never thought of KI on her. I am very curious what drove your decision.

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

Contrary to what most seem to think I find Jaakuna amazing in Urami and tormented 

The amount of damage she can put out with the hazardous aura when she is in the right place is scary and the Urami crew gives her healing (and she is already pretty annoying to deal with) and out of activation movement to get her into place or back into place if your opponent moves her 

[thewrathchilde]

8 hours ago, DerSkalde said:

Why Killer Instinct on Kirai? I played her with GST and The W and find them very interesting. But never thought of KI on her. I am very curious what drove your decision.

Ruthless to get around things like Manipulative and the stone generation. Usually if I take it I have the Emissary in my list also for Zombies to provide Kirai with fodder for the Loot Their Corpses. 

[thewrathchilde]

1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Contrary to what most seem to think I find Jaakuna amazing in Urami 

Yeah, I get good mileage out of her in the right game for the aura and for her Projected Voice and Lure.

[Paddywhack]

Got to get Kirai on the table against Lady J and man, Kirai is a beast. Her summoning, even just once a turn, is very good. With Grave Spirit's Touch I had no worry about Kirai's wounds. Her having Execute and being able to bounce attacks to other models makes her scary to face in combat. Yes, I managed to get an execute on Lady J - mostly luck and my opponent not bringing enough stones, but still rough for my opponent. To be fair though, LJ had healed about 10 wnds total by that time. 

I did take 3 Seishin and basically gave Initiative to my opponent every turn, especially with a couple summons. That hurt, especially once LJ was in the middle of my crew doing her pulses. Still managed to pull out a win though with a lucky 2nd turn lead scoring Strat and both schemes. 

[Spyrer]

I feel "The Whisper" is basically stapled on to Kirai, simply for the reason that you do NOT want to black joker your once per turn summon. Also the intuition lets her save stones for the summons.

I basically start out with Kirai+The Whisper, Ikiryo, Francis, 2 Seishin, 1-2 Onryo, and then after that fill out with stuff relevant to the schemes. Usually take some sort of condition removal like a Nurse or Bone Pile. Possibly a beater with or without Killer Instinct....