January 2017 Errata

[Kadeton]

14 minutes ago, Dealer said:

Some time ago, Belles were considered for cuddling and design team thought it was all ok. So what has changed?

The design team.

Personally I don't think the change will have a significant impact on the actual effectiveness of Belles in play. It will, however, have a huge effect on the perception of Belles' power. People look at Ca 8 on a 5ss model and lose their minds, but apparently Ca 7 is fine?

I think the change to Belles is fine, I'm just a bit disappointed that the range of stat values seems to get narrower over time. It sometimes feels like if any stat is more than 7 or less than 5, that's enough reason for some to dismiss the entire model as "OP" or "worthless".

[Kadeton]

12 minutes ago, Daysleeper said:

The Nothing Beasts' 0:Void says "...discard a control card..."

Whats a control card? Am i missing something? Are all your "Cards in Hand" called control cards? I don't think i came across that expression in this game.

Your hand of cards is called the Control Hand (p.24, BRB), so "control card" is just a shorthand version of "a card from your Control Hand". Karina and Old Major's stat cards also use the term.

[-Loki-]

18 minutes ago, Dealer said:

Depends on how many do you need? Where do you live (shipping costs)? Will I have to do this every gg release (every year)? Not sure if you get me...

Australia so I deal with ridiculous pricing due to exchange rates and ridiculous shipping. Comes out to nearly $1au per card for me and shipping will probably $20au. However no it doesn't bother me. It's not like I need every card. Out of this I need 6. $6 plus shipping for correct cards? I'm good with that.

A new scheme and strategy deck every time they change gaining grounds I'm okay with and its not like it's mandatory since you can print them off and flip for them like normal anyway.

So yeah. I'm good with it and I pay dumb prices for them.

[Andrew James Princep]

Given that Karina's Faces of Oblivion upgrade says "Crews containing this model may hire The Nothing Beast, Void Wretches, and Guild Autopsies regardless of Faction." and Tara now can "hire up to 4 models with the Void Characteristic that are not the Crew's declared Faction" will these stack? So, if I declare Ressers and I take Karina with the upgrade, can I hire The Nothing Beast and 3 Wretches (with Karina), then also hire Scion and 3 Death Marshals (with Tara)? 

[KrazyIvan]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

I think the change to Belles is fine, I'm just a bit disappointed that the range of stat values seems to get narrower over time. It sometimes feels like if any stat is more than 7 or less than 5, that's enough reason for some to dismiss the entire model as "OP" or "worthless".

This. 

I started worrying about this kind of thing when Ripples came out. Those masters plugged holes in the factions, giving them options that the faction generally lacked before. I've started started to get a very "sameyness" feeling when looking at things lately because things factions are good and bad at seem to be fading away. 

Now that you mention it about stats I can't unsee it.

[Dealer]

2 hours ago, -Loki- said:

So yeah. I'm good with it and I pay dumb prices for them.

See. Here you and I disagree. That you feel ok paying over 20 bucks for a few cards isnt the rule of law for everyone.

[OldManMyke]

2 minutes ago, Dealer said:

See. Here you and I disagree. That you feel ok paying over 20 bucks for a few cards isnt the rule of law for everyone.

then just print them out from the PDF and sleeve them up.  Use a playing card between the two faces to give it rigidity

[Starrius]

 

15 minutes ago, Dealer said:

See. Here you and I disagree. That you feel ok paying over 20 bucks for a few cards isnt the rule of law for everyone.

If you feel that strongly does that mean you won't continue to play. Or do you only use the non erratad models.

 

The changes are designed for the continuation of the game. And if you look at it like that wyrd don't really get to much out of it. It's not as if you have to go and buy the new models do you?

Print out the cards your self or get them printed it makes no difference. The changes were made for the betterment of the game and reading them and on day minus whatever complaining about it doesn't help especially without going out there and testing them yourself.

 

This is a hobby and a game.

 

[Cadaverousbirth]

2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

The design team.

Personally I don't think the change will have a significant impact on the actual effectiveness of Belles in play. It will, however, have a huge effect on the perception of Belles' power. People look at Ca 8 on a 5ss model and lose their minds, but apparently Ca 7 is fine?

I think the change to Belles is fine, I'm just a bit disappointed that the range of stat values seems to get narrower over time. It sometimes feels like if any stat is more than 7 or less than 5, that's enough reason for some to dismiss the entire model as "OP" or "worthless".

They were overpowered for their cost, I know this argument is ten men beating a dead horse into a fine mist but it is true, and it has finally been addressed with a deft hand. Dropping their cast from HUGECRAPOHGOD levels to "Great" is a big deal, and lowering their wounds by one helps keep them in line more with what they're worth. Belles have one job and they do it well, but now there's a bigger model pool to resist it other than Hannah, El Mayor'd Perdita and Counterspell models.

This stops them being a huge outlier. They still have the strongest Lure in the game, but instead of them being 1st and everyone else starting at 4th, 5th, or 10th (Oiran), now it's more like 1, 2, 3, 4, 10

[DXXXVIII]

Can msaki hit herself now?
 

Can Misaki hit herself with thunder using downburst?
She can definitely target herself with the tactical action downburst and therefore becomes "the target" for the following thunder attack.
Now the big question... Theres the rule that you cant target yourself with attack actions... but theres also teh rule that cardrules can make exceptions of bookrules... im confused.

 "Attack Actions require a target and LoS (see pg. 40). In
addition, a model may never target itself with an Attack
Action, unless specifically allowed by another rule."

"Downburst (Ca 5M / TN: 13M / Rg: 8): Models within p3 of target model must
succeed on Df 15 duels or be pushed 4" away from the target.

Trigger: Rolling Thunder: After succeeding, take a Thunder Attack Action
against the target, ignoring range."

[Psientologist]

Apologies if this has been asked but when the cards are available on Wargames Vault will that include errata'd Cooper as well as Colette (and any other special versions of errata'd cards)?

[Slartibartfarst]

By the way - couldnt see anyone commenting on this. But will the updated cards also come to the LE models? Like Colette will there also be a dr. Cooper card?

[TeddyBear]

Interestig changes!!

We will see what will change in game,  maybe i'm wrong but don't seem to me radical changes..

1 hour ago, Dealer said:

See. Here you and I disagree. That you feel ok paying over 20 bucks for a few cards isnt the rule of law for everyone.

I know what you say.. i live in Italy, and i will have to change 30 cards, now i have to estimate total cost on Wargame Vault and shipping costs..

if i can give some advice, you might consider to have them printed in a typing office (if you want to have them similar to the original)

[Travis]

3 hours ago, Andrew James Princep said:

Given that Karina's Faces of Oblivion upgrade says "Crews containing this model may hire The Nothing Beast, Void Wretches, and Guild Autopsies regardless of Faction." and Tara now can "hire up to 4 models with the Void Characteristic that are not the Crew's declared Faction" will these stack? So, if I declare Ressers and I take Karina with the upgrade, can I hire The Nothing Beast and 3 Wretches (with Karina), then also hire Scion and 3 Death Marshals (with Tara)? 

It is my understanding that you could take as many wretches/nothing beast as you want (and up to 4 scion/marshals) if you hire Karina.

[Squirrelich]

Thank you for your hard work design folks. I'm sure your efforts have led the game in an overall positive direction and I look forward to exploring the new aspects of the game and seeing my trust  in you validated.

 

But if it isn't validated... I will be sad

[cryion]

@Aaron

Not sure if this was mentioned in here before, but:
The back of the card says in the background "January Errata". Wouldnt it make sense to make that January 17 Errata? I know I know, its written on the side anyway. Just kinda seems weird to me, especially if there is a high possibility of an errata coming in January 18 as well.

[Lucidicide]

The watermark will not be on the cards. Only the dark text running vertically on the back that says Errata: January 2017.

[Bengt]

Oh, you have added the Emissaries to wargamevault now, nice.

[Myth]

8 hours ago, Bengt said:

What makes the damage unresistible? Because I assume you are talking about Black Blood Postule, which does 2 damage without any comments about ignoring armour/reduction, so a model with armour +1 or better would get only get 1 damage from each cast of BBP.

I suspect he was referring to the fact that there is no duel to resist Black Blood Pustule, so the Shaman can target a friendly model near enemies and pulse potentially 4 damage onto the foe without them having a check to stop it. (Though armor would certainly apply). Which... I mean, that was always the design of how the Shaman was supposed to operate. The fact that his abilities didn't actually work together was a flaw in his design, which the errata is fixing, not an exploit being made available.

Sure, Illuminated are a sturdy model to give Black Blood and use as a target node. They also aren't unkillable, and they both need to get to the enemy (and within 1") and have the Shaman follow to get within range without dying himself. And there are various counters in the game to dangerous pulses (Freikorps, Seishin, etc). For that matter, there are also various other ways to splash enemies with damage, such as by chain blasts off your own models. I've seen a Carrion Emissary dropping blasts off either a tough target (Izamu) or expendable ones (Mindless Zombies). Sure, it is more limited range that the Shaman - but the Emissary is also bringing a lot more to the table than a single cool trick. I've seen Molly drop a pair of Punk Zombies near enemies, and then they make use of Slice and Dice on both the enemies and each other - sometimes even with Crooligans around to really crank the damage up.

I certainly think the Shaman is much more playable now, but I don't see a 14 SS investment in a pair of minions to be the 'killer combo' that it is being described as.

8 hours ago, Bengt said:

Were people actually using focus on Austringers more than once in a blue moon? What I found annoying with them was standing behind blocking & impassable terrain and spamming their raptor, focusing would just make them randomise in engagements, so I guess now they are better if someone wants to focus to be able to cheat the damage. So in essence Austringers got buffed, because that was needed... A change that would actually make them feel reasonable would be to give them a minus to shooting if they don't have LoS, like Willie's Demo Charge.

I think it was mainly for the range. At least in my experience, the Austringer could threaten a huge swath of the table with the potential for 18" range, with an attack whose focused shots were potentially very lethal to many scheme runners. Without being able to expand their range, Austringers are still quite scary within their 12" bubble, especially hiding behind terrain - but I feel like they won't be able to just have complete free reign of the board anymore. (And will also need to be choosier about where they hide, now that range limitation is more of a concern.)

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Myth, The black blood shaman combo is that bad.

[Thana.]

I think these changes are for the better. I agree with others who have posted that errata is preferable to 0ss upgrades.

For me, an interesting consequence of reducing the power of some of the game's premier models (austringer, colette, dreamer, belle) is which premier models became even stronger by slipping through the cracks. Off the top of my head Johann and Doppelganger were more powerful than any of the models that got toned down and at least Kirai was in the same power tier as Levi, Dreamer and Colette. 

An interesting thought that I heard expressed was Kadeton's that any model with a stat below 5 is "useless." Given the number of df/wp6 models that don't pay for their high stat lines with deficiencies in other areas of their card (a&d, carrion and shadow emissary etc.) I think it's a reasonable view that any model with a 4 (and even a 5) offensive stat that doesn't have something else on their card to heavily compensate would be disregarded, better choices are almost always available. Analogous to this is that any model without a powerful 0 action is heavily disadvantaged compared to a model with one, frequently without any sort of equivalent recompense elsewhere on its card. These are also hard sells. I agree with Kadeton's sentiment that it would be more interesting if the range of competitive statlines was broadened (presumably by giving models well defined, counterbalancing, strengths or weaknesses in other areas).      

Final thought: the black blood shaman combo alluded to above is not only not "that bad" it wasn't even worth playing back when people assumed it worked. The only thing thing I predict that will change about the bbs is that it will go from a poor model that doesn't synergize with its own abilities to a poor model that does. 

[Icemyn]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Myth, The black blood shaman combo is that bad.

Disagree. Honestly, if you are getting blown out by a 1" pulse you may need to to adjust your tactics.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That's fine to believe. This nonsense has destroyed groups I've built before so I personally will not stop advocating for its removal.

[trikk]

Can you write a sample list? And what was played against it? I`m REALLY curious to try and see how it works from an opponent point of view.

[JisaacT]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Myth, The black blood shaman combo is that bad.

Wow that really is a strong interaction. I wasn't familiar with the BBS or the Illuminated as I do not play Neverborn and I am back from a long break. I had to look up what you were talking about. I don't think the problem lies in the BBS but in the Illuminated. The BBS' action is very strong with the correct positioning of your targeted model and your strategy, but its quite strong but not overpowered, even with the crow trigger. But that aside I think the problem is in the Illuminated's healing ability. A guaranteed 2 and possible max of 5 every turn is just nuts for any model. On top of that they are models that want to get into fights because of their very strong fighting abilities and interactions with their crew (brilliance and whatnot). I think what it will come down to is the opponents ability to recognize the strong target and focus on taking out either the Illuminated or the BBS in one turn. The BBS has 8 wounds, which is decent, but does not have a great DF or really any other defensive abilities when attacked from range. That is certainly it's biggest weakness. I can see why you say this has destroyed groups though, especially with new players, or players who don't have a wide variety of models, or "power" players who just want to win. Right now I cannot say otherwise as I do not have experience. I am just trying to outline what I think from a different perspective as I am getting back into the hobby and community.