Theorycrafting changes in current models

[Karolicker]

While we're fixing stuff, I had an idea a while ago for a series of Rare 1 0ss upgrades for executioners a la the samurai, aimed at making them synergize with other crews. For example:

Deputized: Gains the guild marshall and guardsman characteristics and unimpeded.

Unethical Augmentations: Gains construct and witch hunter. Whenever it gains a condition, it pushes 3" after the action or ability giving the condition resolves.

Uncle Gordo: Gains the family characteristic. Can charge enemy models engaged with friendly family for (1).

 

I don't know if that last one is even close to being balanced, but it should give you the gist. Mainly I just sort of wish that executioners were guild marshalls again.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Karolicker, that's pretty fun. I'm all for those patches that are effectively customization rather than the really obvious "here's some more rules" style. Also, that's a lot of fun flavor/I think you did a nice job incorporating the themes/aesthetic. 

 

One game I like to play with things I don't think quite work is, changing one thing as little as possible, to try to efficiently change everything it interacts with. For Lucius, I think there are two directions I could see

1- make some sort of buff interacting with Mimics/Guardsmen, make it really easy to get those extra AP so you're taking some serious boosts to some lower-quality models.

2- make a rare 1 upgrade that allows one Mimic or Guardsman to count as a minion, for purposes of friendly Guardsmen/Mimic actions/abilities. (Needed those restrictions for collodi/dreamer/etc., and it would potentially give the whole guardsmen section a minor buff)

Either chance is essentially about resource efficiency- the first means it requires less investment for your low-quality return; the second would allow access to a higher-quality return.

[Ludvig]

16 hours ago, Karolicker said:

 

I don't know if that last one is even close to being balanced, but it should give you the gist. Mainly I just sort of wish that executioners were guild marshalls again.

Fun ideas!

[Vorschlag]

Not sure if this has ever been suggested but how about a mimic that can add key words to itself.

May choose a creature characteristic at start if game - construct, living, undead
A way around terrifying and other type advantages,

 

May add one "keyword" at the start of game. 
Becomes a guardsmen to benefit from Dashel etc.

Or in non Lucius lists

Becomes a swampfiend to benefit from McTavish's screen, hexed among you etc.
Becomes a woe to benefit from Martyre


Maybe a zero point action to gain either a keyword or a creature characteristic in game?

Just an idea that I thought "might" not have been considered. 
Maybe the undead and construct options are going too far...but I suppose it depends how good a mimic they are...can't see that action being incredibly beneficial in most circumstances anyway.

For that matter, I don't know if the idea of a mimic that can copy conditions from enemy models when it chooses or perhaps even steal conditions has ever been suggested.

Or one that can gain conditions when a living model within x gains a condition.

Sorry this is all going off topic now. 

 

[LunarSol]

The best Mimic rule in the game is Lucius's Loopholes, IMO.

[Ashlian]

Not going to meddle in the lucius/guard discussion and going to stick to what I know:

 

1) LJ: needs hard to wound (better survivability and all other marshals have it). furthermore lower cost on her upgrades or mix them up (if not this, then give her onslaught trigger on her card for free or some extra movement or magic option on her base card. Only 1 of previously mentioned would be fine)

2) marshals need some more teamplay synergy to make marshal heavy crews more viable compared to other compositions. would love something with bury and/or making undead and more interaction with undead (like exorcist).

3)Sonnia: needs 1 or 2 new witch hunter models for extra options (running stalkers and handler + sam is getting old). And I know orderly are WH, but really what do mental hospitals have to do with magical witchhunting (they should've been McMourning minions)? I would prefer a fantastical fire beast that is summoned by criid. I don't know, a big fire serpent maybe? perhaps with "tyrant" keyword? and somewhere in the 9-12ss range?

3)Hoffman and constructs are fine/fun, although an alternative playstyle to hoffball could be fun => maybe 1 more upgrade to encourage a different playstyle?

 

so basically: pls do something for the existing marshals. maybe do something for the witchhunters by releasing a new crew-specific model. If there really is nothing else left to improve on try some fun variation on hoffman playstyle.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Ashlian
forgot a line of text

[SpiralngCadavr]

Vors, love the mimic gaining another trait like that. It would be hard to work out, but pretty cool, I think.

 

Ashlian, yeah, LJ sure needs something. Personally, I'd vote for flexibility- she used to be able to use that gun of hers, and I think even a decent other attack option could help.

Marshals... they do have aionus now, but what I really think they need is a cheaper 4-5ss model that has a decent interaction or two with them.

On those orderly type guys... yeah, I have zero idea why they didn't get into McM's theme. Or maybe Tormented, at that. It's just confusing. How've you been doing with her emissary? That seems like it would add some strong options in the range you're talking about.

[Ashlian]

@SpiralngCadavr 

1) to be honest I don't know what aionus does.

2) trying to make marshalls work: i play LJ + judge + loneM + 2 DM + emmisary + exorcist (sometimes swapping models out for hounds or watchers). It can work, but all depends on the shemes + if opponent has gone for optimal list and knows what he's doing you're kinda in a bind  I stil play mostly just for fun and thematic crews are all i play. I know this involves losing and i don't mind. I just don't get why the supposedly most badass katana-wielding master of malifaux is thinner than paper and is not even close to being in the top 3 of the best CC-masters  .

3) emissary in criid list works, but it's not as fabulous as you might think. I mainly play it because i can proxy her avator model for it and it looks cool. But definatly not a must include, if only you wouldn't need LOS to trigger reïncarnation.... (but that would probably be a bit to strong  ).

=> long story short, you can also hire peacekeeper or horseman in that ss range and i find them to be more useful overal. (not as fluffy or good looking of course)

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ashlin, as a counter question, what do Sanitarium workers have to do with the work of a Coroner? They aren't McMorning themed minions no matter how tenuous the 'medical' theme is. Purging the mind of the ability to use magic seems way more in tune with the witch hunters than any connection they could possibly have to McMorning just because they happen to wear scrubs.

Lady Justice is a tricky model because honestly she would be exceptionally easy to push into the way OP range. Let's not forget she has a 2" ml 7 attack that base (with triggers) does 4 dmg, and with the potential to cheat a ram and spend a stone for an additional ram in advance, and that ups her min dmg to 6. That kind of dmg, especially on a model with 3 ap and use SS requires VERY careful handling. Having played against her a number of times, I don't think she is weak, but I do think she lacks flexibility, and the options she has can often not feel satisfying. If she gets where she wants to go she will kill just about anything she closes with. Especially since she doesn't really,... synergize with her crew, and that to me is a bigger issue. She really could use an aura of some kind that boosts the non-burying attack actions of Guild Marshalls, or something similar. Something she doesn't need to spend AP on and that just helps her crew out just by her existing on the board.

[lusciousmccabe]

40 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

Ashlian, yeah, LJ sure needs something. Personally, I'd vote for flexibility- she used to be able to use that gun of hers,

Or both of them, as the case may be!

[SpiralngCadavr]

Ash, the big interaction is that he can attack buried guys.

Fetid, yeah, I could kinda' buy that on the orderly set, but unless it's hidden in the fiction, I don't see where anything about anti-magic comes in to play. And I'd say the medical theme is a little more than that, since it's also very heavily the insane experiment variety, just not dead. And neither master really has any interactions with the set. Sonnia's can can protect them from magic for some reason; mcm's would have allowed a broader aesthetically coherent set to be added to ressers for a little cheaper. Neither have special condition shenanigans.

[Gnomezilla]

1 minute ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Or both of them, as the case may be!

Karolicker had an excellent idea with the fancy peacebringer Guild general upgrade (guns for everyone! it's the Guild way). It just needs to be...stress-tested with power loop.

[Ashlian]

The whole LJ debate for me just comes down to this:

*She's supposed to be so strong because she can absolutely murder a model..... but she can't do anything to bypass armor/HtW/HtK/impossible to would....etc

*She's CC so she needs to close the gab => no real mobility (even needs an upgrade to just get unimpeded)

*without mobility she would need some form of tankyness => most normal other beatsticks wreck her face especially from a distance.

*because she is a 100% glass canon, you would expect some sort of crew benefit => no she doesn't got that either.

*some strong very cost efficient upgrade? no.

 

compare that to other combat masters:

McMourning: because of precise can actually do more damage to high priority targets, lot more survivability, extra mobility options, strong upgrades and multiple ways to build both strond and thematic crews.

perdita: maybe not as much damage, but still deadly, more def, better crew options and mobility + ranged.

lilith: cc like justice only a sword upgrade to make her range 3", other interesting options for spells and abilities especially moving around. 

victoria: lot more options to move her around and get work done.

misaki: amazing alpha strike potentional (less sustained damage, but amazing point and click murder for 1 turn)

 

they may not all do as much damage as LJ, but all come close or can, in some cases, do even more damage + they get either staying power (tankynes), crew synergy or mobility. LJ get's nothing apart from that base 3/4/5 low damage output, which is cool, but far from to strong and most of the time avoidable or pointless => it won't get you to control objectives or markers and is won't put a dent in stuf like izamu.

 

Btw this is not me trying to hate on those other masters, I love lilith for example, But just trying to make a point that justice just hasn't got that extra little thing that makes her fun to play and not just "playable" because i want to play with a blindfolded woman wielding katana's. I feel like she needs a sort of special something that really sets her apart from the other damage masters, because at the moment she is just a very high output enforcer.

[lusciousmccabe]

She actually had functioning guns last edition and most of the way through playtest for this one.

I'm not sure they axed them for balance reasons since they were weaker than her sword so didn't contribute much to her power level. Think it might have been more for simplification and to differentiate the guild ladies (they all used to pack peacebringers).

[trikk]

I believe Lady Justice is pretty much OK. 

The core of my Justice Lists are:

Justice, Badge of Office

Francisco, Wade In + optional Hermanos

Sidir+ Promieses and By Your Side

Brutal Effiigy.

 

Add some Orderly/Watcher scheme running + Austringer/Pathfinder and crush your enemies.

[Ashlian]

And that core is for me exactly the problem => i don't want to "have" to take franc (and maybe sidir) to make her work. 

take that same list and plug in any other guild master except hoff and it will work just as well if not better. it's not a justice list, it's just a general list that works even without any specific master support.

 

lucius can run it, perdita can run it, criid can run it and all 3 would probably do a better job than Lj. Not even mentioning Mcabe.

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, Ashlian said:

And that core is for me exactly the problem => i don't want to "have" to take franc (and maybe sidir) to make her work. 

take that same list and plug in any other guild master except hoff and it will work just as well if not better. it's not a justice list, it's just a general list that works even without any specific master support.

 

lucius can run it, perdita can run it, criid can run it and all 3 would probably do a better job than Lj. Not even mentioning Mcabe.

Im probably lucius' s biggest cheerleader,  and that is not a better list for lucius than for LJ.  

[Omenbringer]

4 hours ago, trikk said:

I believe Lady Justice is pretty much OK. 

The core of my Justice Lists are:

Justice, Badge of Office

Francisco, Wade In + optional Hermanos

Sidir+ Promieses and By Your Side

Brutal Effiigy.

 

Add some Orderly/Watcher scheme running + Austringer/Pathfinder and crush your enemies.

I agree with Ashlian below...

4 hours ago, Ashlian said:

And that core is for me exactly the problem => i don't want to "have" to take franc (and maybe sidir) to make her work. 

take that same list and plug in any other guild master except hoff and it will work just as well if not better. it's not a justice list, it's just a general list that works even without any specific master support.

This is what happens when you remove the "Character" from the game. I find it ridiculous that the leader of the Guild's Death Marshals is run best without any Death Marshals and surrounded by a collection of random models that really have 0 reason fluff wise to ever work together (outside of perhaps the Austringer/ Pathfinder inclusion that are at least members of the Guard). I would absolutely love to see something that reversed this trend even if it was a new type of "Crew Upgrade" (that doesn't sit on a specific model so its death wouldn't become a huge liability) that encouraged Thematic forces over a collection of random top tier models.

Why package models together if they dont function well together?

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Ashlian said:

Not going to meddle in the lucius/guard discussion and going to stick to what I know:

3)Sonnia: needs 1 or 2 new witch hunter models for extra options (running stalkers and handler + sam is getting old). And I know orderly are WH, but really what do mental hospitals have to do with magical witchhunting (they should've been McMourning minions)? I would prefer a fantastical fire beast that is summoned by criid. I don't know, a big fire serpent maybe? perhaps with "tyrant" keyword? and somewhere in the 9-12ss range?

Magic seems  based on the mind. And has a habit of either driving people mad, or appearing in mad people. The breech certainly has a history of making people go mad, and giving people magical powers that didn't have them before. 

 

13 hours ago, Ashlian said:

The whole LJ debate for me just comes down to this:

*She's supposed to be so strong because she can absolutely murder a model..... but she can't do anything to bypass armor/HtW/HtK/impossible to would....etc

*She's CC so she needs to close the gab => no real mobility (even needs an upgrade to just get unimpeded)

*without mobility she would need some form of tankyness => most normal other beatsticks wreck her face especially from a distance.

*because she is a 100% glass canon, you would expect some sort of crew benefit => no she doesn't got that either.

*some strong very cost efficient upgrade? no.

 

compare that to other combat masters:

McMourning: because of precise can actually do more damage to high priority targets, lot more survivability, extra mobility options, strong upgrades and multiple ways to build both strond and thematic crews.

perdita: maybe not as much damage, but still deadly, more def, better crew options and mobility + ranged.

lilith: cc like justice only a sword upgrade to make her range 3", other interesting options for spells and abilities especially moving around. 

victoria: lot more options to move her around and get work done.

misaki: amazing alpha strike potentional (less sustained damage, but amazing point and click murder for 1 turn)

 

they may not all do as much damage as LJ, but all come close or can, in some cases, do even more damage + they get either staying power (tankynes), crew synergy or mobility. LJ get's nothing apart from that base 3/4/5 low damage output, which is cool, but far from to strong and most of the time avoidable or pointless => it won't get you to control objectives or markers and is won't put a dent in stuf like izamu.

Against most models Justice kills faster than anyone but the Viks. 

Hard to wound, well she gets anti hard to wound in a natural positive to damage (when she hasn't charged) as well as a high weak damage

Against Armour+1 , she puts out as much damage as Perdita ignoring the armour, and more than Doug. Armour +2 she starts to slow down, but its very rare that models have that much armour.

Nothing in the game ignores impossible to wound at the moment, but her high damage sort of gets round it. certainly better than any of the others you've said except a furied up Vik. 

Hard to kill will annoy her, but she can get Onslaught (and in my view almost the only time its worth getting the onslaught upgrade is to face hard to kill models). 

There are very few models (Masters included) that can survive 3 AP from Lady Justice. 

And I'd put her as more survivable in the middle of a fight than any of the other models you've said. 

She gives her crew bonus's when she kills a model. She can buy an upgrade to give her crew free movement when she charges. 

Her in theme henchmen can give her extra mobility. 

 

She might need some things, but I don't agree with your list of what she is lacking. 

[Vorschlag]

Beat stick masters are like the queens of the chess board, powerful pieces but easily taken when over extended.
 

[Ashlian]

@Adran The thing I'm trying to say is not that she is underwhelming as a damagedealer => she's very clearly one of the best. The problem is that it's her only real use:

If you want to make her pure damage and nothing more, fine. but then she needs either some sort better engagement tools to get into damagedealing mode more consistantly or her damage has to be foolproof. as it stands now she can be evaded by a lot of models and in some, admittedly rare, cases she will encounter a wall that she can't take down. If you want to make her only damage at least 1 of these cases has to go, either let her deal with the rare wall models or let her catch up to the more slippery ones.

the things that just seem specificaly weird to me are:

*covering fire needing a crow (make that one more consistent and you have a fairly thematic and relativly usefull action)

*Vendetta not being on her normal card. onslaught and vengeance are good triggers that actually make it so she can deal with any type of cc opponent, but paying 2ss and an upgrade slot is just to much for the rare situational moments that either would be better than just a straight up crit hit.

*implacable, justice unleashed and flames of the pit are just not all that useful most of the time and don't add anything to her play in my opinion.

*just don't get why she doesn't have HtW like all other marshals have.

 

Once again I don't dislike her, she my number 1 favorite master. I just don't get why they couldn't make her and marshals a little more interactive and interesting => would that really have made her that OP when you can compare her to a McCabe, Hoffman or McMourning lists?

Just an upgrade like the 0ss lost blossom ones would go a long way.

[wizuriel]

I would really like to see Guild Guard getting some abilities that make them seem like they are guards / patrol.

 

I think the easiest way would be some 0pt upgrades

 

0pt limited

Sanitation Division 

Restrictions: Guardsman

Strength in Numbers: Reduce the cost of Guild Guard to 3SS

( 0 ) New Orders: Discard this upgrade to immediately equip a 0tpt upgraded restricted to Guardsman

Sanitation Team: All Guardsman in 4 gain the following ability Cleaning up the streets: At the start of this models activation remove all corpse and scrap markers in 2. This model heals 1 wound if a marker is removed by this ability

 

 

0pt limited

Immigration Division 

Restrictions: Guardsman

Strength in Numbers: Reduce the cost of Guild Guard to 3SS

( 0 ) New Orders: Discard this upgrade to immediately equip a 0tpt upgraded restricted to Guardsman

Immigration Team: All Guardsman in 4 gain the following ability Can I see your papers?: Whenever an unfriendly model is summoned or unburied within 6 this model can make a ( 1 ) attack action against the unfriendly model. Only 1 model can use this ability per summoned or unburied enemy model. 

 

 

0pt limited

COP 

Restrictions: Guardsman

Strength in Numbers: Reduce the cost of Guild Guard to 3SS

( 0 ) New Orders: Discard this upgrade to immediately equip a 0tpt upgraded restricted to Guardsman

Team Leader: For any guardsman  in 5 that has an ability that requires a particular characteristic or named model, this model counts as having that characteristic or name.

You're all just redshirts!: When a friendly Guardsman is killed in 6 you can discard a card to summon a friendly Guild Guard in base contact with this model. 

 

For Lucius I was kind of hoping his Avatar premanifest card would be a normal upgrade for him

 

[Archilus]

Lucius needs something to make him not totally suck.

After playing him a lot of times, I think that the only that can actually make him playable is a total rewrite. His entire premise sucks, he hands out his AP to weak models so they could do more useless stuff.

And guardsmen are a joke. Guild guards do nothing at all, Dashel is overpriced, riflemen are waay too squishy, Austringers are great, but have no synergy with Lucius and Dashel, Wardens work better with Hoff¨, Hounds work better with McCabe.

I would really love to see Lucius as a summoner (Guardsmen if Guild and Mimics if Neverborn)

[lusciousmccabe]

17 hours ago, Archilus said:

After playing him a lot of times, I think that the only that can actually make him playable is a total rewrite. His entire premise sucks, he hands out his AP to weak models so they could do more useless stuff.

That's my conclusion also. I mean, they could probably patch him to make him do something worthwhile, but it won't be what he is really supposed to do anyway. 

[admiralvorkraft]

I disagree, his actions are great, they are just all way too expensive/limited. An errata that bumps his cast by 1-3, removes the various "once per turn" language from his actions, and maybe (maybe) builds in a ram here or there and Lucius is competitive. It won't put him in the "always take" tier of masters, but it will give him a strong place in pools that encourage aggressive scheming/scheme denial.