is incorporeal a bad defence?

[Angelshard]

The more I look at it the less I like incorporeal as a defensive ability.

The ignore terrain part is awesome, but it seems to me that models with incorporeal gets punished so very hard on df, wp and wd for a defense that is quite easy to bypass.

Ca attacks aside there are so very many ways to bypass this ability.

And that is before factoring in that you round up. Incorporeal is only better than armour +1 If you take 4 damage or more and only beat armour +2 at 6 damage or higher. 

I honestly think the stat penalties for gaining this ability are too harsh.

When my hungering darkness looks at my effigy with envy something is wrong.

Unless I'm missing something and incorporeal models are supposed to be fragile little flowers that pay heavily for the ability to ignore terrain.

[Cedar]

Incorporeal is either hit or miss - if you face crew without CA attacks, your models basically have double wounds, but if you face eg. Sonnia, Rasputina or Wong Incorporeal ends being slightly better Unimpeded.

[Da Git]

5 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Incorporeal is either hit or miss - if you face crew without CA attacks, your models basically have double wounds, but if you face eg. Sonnia, Rasputina or Wong Incorporeal ends being slightly better Unimpeded.

Kinda what s/he said, but because it rounds up, it's not nearly as good as double wounds.  I also agree, that they pay a fairly hefty stat drop for the benefits.  The number of models that also just flat-out ignore damage reduction is also increasing.  Maybe in the next Edition, Incorporeal models might need a stat boost to keep up with the hit or miss side.

That said, it would be fairly small, I can't really think of many models that really suffer for it.

[Angelshard]

Problem is that even when the opponent doesn't have ca, there are so many ways to bypass incorporeal. First off 'may not be reduced' attacks have gotten more common, but these hurts a lot of different defences.

Then there's conditions, pulses, auras and abilities.

The issue I have is that it seems to me incorporeal gives up a lot more than models with armour, htk, htw or other kinds of reduce.

[Cedar]

Models with Incorporeal are usually more mobile, with greater wk/cg values than models with armor/htw/htk. 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

As a Resser, I must say that I find incorporeal the least reliable defensive ability in the game. too many models bypass it currently - and that's the reason I try to avoid playing spirit-themed crews.

[WWHSD]

29 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

When my hungering darkness looks at my effigy with envy something is wrong.

How much more durable should a 0 point Henchman that buries instead of dies if you take a 2 point upgrade be?

[Da Git]

6 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Problem is that even when the opponent doesn't have ca, there are so many ways to bypass incorporeal. First off 'may not be reduced' attacks have gotten more common, but these hurts a lot of different defences.

Then there's conditions, pulses, auras and abilities.

The issue I have is that it seems to me incorporeal gives up a lot more than models with armour, htk, htw or other kinds of reduce.

Agree with all of these points, the amount of stuff that ignore Incorporeal is definitely growing.  Can you give an example of a model that is really suffering though? 

Just now, WWHSD said:

How much more durable should a 0 point Henchman that buries instead of dies 2 if you take a 2 point upgrade be?

That's kind of the problem though.  You pretty much have to take that upgrade which outclasses Lynch's other two Limited.  Huggy probably could use a boost on Df so you're not pretty much pigeonholed into taking the respawn limited.

[Angelshard]

It's not only durability. A lot of control abilities also gets through easier due to low defensive stats.

But a 0 stone henchman that is a huge part of the masters power should be more durable than a 4 stone model

[fllesh]

incorporeal is showing its age like terrifying/horror.... it used to be better than it is now

[Angelshard]

@Da Git

Hungering darkness, insidious madness, nothing beast and void wretches are all extremely fragile for their cost (and yes I know huggy is 0)

[Math Mathonwy]

23 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

It's not only durability. A lot of control abilities also gets through easier due to low defensive stats.

But a 0 stone henchman that is a huge part of the masters power should be more durable than a 4 stone model

To be fair, that particular 4 Stone model is more durable than most 6 Stone models.

[Da Git]

To my mind, Huggy is most assuredly not a "0"ss model.  Lynch pays for it in a multitude of ways.  Without Huggy, he'd be one of the weakest masters in the game, he has a cache of 1 and pretty much has to take one of his limiteds, the best of which is 2ss. 

@Angelshard

I'd disagree that Nothing Beast is fragile, Henchman, and his 0ss upgrade, bury and card discard shenanigans all make him fairly durable.  Void Wretches are also becoming the new black in the US meta by the sounds of it too.

As I said earlier, Incorp models could definitely use a slight stat increase, but it would need to be slight.  And even then, none of those models are horrible.  I'd also out Sorrows on that list too.

[Dogmantra]

I think Incorporeal's biggest strength is in flattening the damage curve of big spread damage tracks, and making random severe/RJ damage flips less devestating.

[Angelshard]

@Math Mathonwy True, but it still Shouldn't make my henchman envious, still, stitched might have been a better example. And they're kind of fragile.

@Da Git I honestly think the nothing best would be better without incorporeal and 1 wound more and min 5 defense no matter the amount of cards. Incorporeal doesn't do a lot for it.

It seems to me wretches are popular because they're cheap minions in outcast that gives slow. 

@Dogmantra the problem is that a flat damage curve doesn't really save them when they are so easy to kill. Also try only flatten the curve if you can't bypass incorporeal, and my whole beef is that there are so many ways to bypass it

[Joachim]

4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

How much more durable should a 0 point Henchman that buries instead of dies if you take a 2 point upgrade be?

+1

[Joachim]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I think Incorporeal's biggest strength is in flattening the damage curve of big spread damage tracks, and making random severe/RJ damage flips less devestating.

If your incorporeal models has 4 wounds then 7 still kills you, so.

[santaclaws01]

Do they really pay for it? Hanged have decent defensive stats with incorporeal. Void Wretches and Nothing Beast only sort of pay for it early in the turn, but with all the other stuff the nothing beast has to protect it I would hardly call it fragile even when you have a full hand, and void wretches are only scheme runners, and incorporeal ups their durability while compared to almost every other scheme runner. Chiaki doesn't really pay for it with averge defensive stats. Sorrows and Poltergeist problem are that they're probably over costed by .5-1 stone, but again they're only 5ss so shouldn't be that durable in the first place. Really this just feels like a Hungering Darkness pity party, but you can either take the limited to not care if he dies, or take one of the other two and just use your stones to prevent for him instead of Lynch. Huggy can still heal 2 on an auto trigger, as well as having a 0 to heal up for brilliance models around him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Did you really say hanged have decent stats for a 9 stone model? I would respectfully, but forcefully, disagree.

[santaclaws01]

7 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Did you really say hanged have decent stats for a 9 stone model? I would respectfully, but forcefully, disagree.

Eh, I misremembered their df as 5 instead of 4, but yes, between wp 7, incorop, terrifying 12 and an aura that strips horror immunity I would say they have decent protections.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I wouldn't. I find hiring them is a trap because they are pretty significantly overcosted as a hire and I've found them to be fragile as spun glass. Conversly I find them OP summons and feel they should never have been made summonable.

[Angelshard]

I agree that poltergeist might be a bit overpriced, but sorrows would be solid if they were 6/5/5 instead of 3/4/4.

Insidious madness has pathetic 3 wd for a 5 stone model and ubume dies to a stiff breeze the instant she has activated.

I don't find the resilience of the Nothing beast impressive for a 10 stone model.

As I said I might be wrong in how valuable incorporeal is due to being able to ignore terrain, but to me it seems like a hefty tax on their defensive stats.

[-Loki-]

2 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Insidious madness has pathetic 3 wd for a 5 stone model

And yet I rarely have them die.

Insidious Madnesses are scheme runner extraordinaires. Wk 7 and Incorporeal is insane mobility for a 5ss model. As long as there's no canals on the table, they move 14" a turn over anything. Just don't end a move in Hazardous Terrain and you can keep them out of harms way very easily. If you move them well, they're not dying easily, but to a concentrated effort to catch them - which means the models trying to catch them are not doing their schemes or hitting your more valuable models.

[Angelshard]

But in your example the reason they don't die is because they're running by themselves and aren't near any enemies. Their survivability is still pathetic for 5 stones if something actually tries to kill them.

Again I'm not saying there aren't good incorporeal models. I'm saying that as a defensive mechanism it's very unreliable because there's too many counters

[Ludvig]

9 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Did you really say hanged have decent stats for a 9 stone model? I would respectfully, but forcefully, disagree.

Ryle is df 4 or 5 and armor +1 for 10 ss and his attacks usually cause less damage than that of the hanged. Hanged have wp 7 to his 5. Not sure on how many wounds they have.