Never Include Models

[Myth]

Orian, that model is crap. Even with merc tax performer is 100% better imho. Blows my mind that orian and belles got put out in the same book and same cost range. Undead hookers are way more atractive then then living ones who knew. I would kill for these to get an update ya i know good luck.

Yeah, outside of very specific crews built around Wp buffs, I've never seen an Oiran actively contribute to a crew's success on the table. The Rotten Belle comparison is a good one. Compared to them, Belles are more durable (lower defenses, but more Wounds + Hard to Wound), better at Lure (Crow built in, trigger to cause discard), have other options at range (Slow), are better at melee (similar attacks, but with Pounce for free attacks), and have the very powerful ability to Companion. Oiran have their Wp buff and the erratic and hard to use "Assassin's Gift" attack.

They could arguably have a role in a Showgirls crew now, but Performers tend to also outclass them pretty thoroughly, with a better attack, a better lure, and some incredible debuffs and triggers. The Oiran might have a bit of extra survivability, plus the ability to charge... but those don't really help when the model doesn't actually do anything useful on the field.

[ehren37]

I think his fluff actually addresses this, and says that the same spell preventing him from growing to Mature also makes his wings not work or somesuch.

I may actually be conflating his fluff with Skarbrand the Exiled One from 40k.

You're right, the model just doesn't really reflect that.

[Darguth]

Piglets (difficult to use and not rewarding enough) and Pigapult (the amount of resources you need to put into it is not worth it).

I felt this way about Piglets until I played with them. With Df 6, Wd 5, and Small Target they are excellent harassers and extremely fast to jam with due to Pigcharge. All while being a significant Minion.

That said, I'll probably only take them in Ulix but I'll almost always take them with Ulix. The generic Pigs (Piglets and War Pig, and to a lesser extent Wild Boar) just are still to uncontrollable outside of his crew I feel. But with control they are excellent models.

[edonil]

For me, it's totems. Purifying Flame, Emberling, Shang. Just don't like any of those three.

[tadaka]

Totems have a bad habit of being amazing must take or useless crap.

[Hagisman]

I've found that as well. But found synergy in some. Though if someone wants to kill say... The Scales of Justice he is dead. Too fragile.

[edonil]

Oh, plenty of totems are ones that I like. Just not those three, lol.

[Joel]

Lol - I've pretty much found I've disagreed with almost every "never-take" suggested so far (except Shang - he's not good).

Waldgeist - fielding a pair in almost every list and loving it. If their terrain was also dense it could have been 3-4 of them instead.

I think it's good that everyone has these different views on models though, I'd hate for the game to become stale and lists become samey.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Which is odd because I don't understand the dislike for Shang, 3 SS for Rush of Magic and an extra activation is a solid buy. The added potential to heal Misaki, and potentially draw attacks off her is just gravy.

[i_was_like_you]

I think it's good that everyone has these different views on models though, I'd hate for the game to become stale and lists become samey.

On that note, how about never take Upgrades, or should we start a whole other thread for that one?

Too many, especially the Master specific ones, seem to be auto-includes, while others do seem to be downright never-takes, unless we're running a crew at a higher soulstone level with a lot more Upgrade slots available to tack them onto.

[hypoking]

I've never bought Ophelia one of her upgrades. Not much of a point. Kin generics are equally neglected in my experience.

Don't think I've seen someone take a statrock.

[Mako]

Don't think I've seen someone take a statrock.

Wait, I was following the thread til this bit... what's a statrock?

[hypoking]

One of the asylum, guardian, traveler, tyrant echo thingies.

[Mako]

One of the asylum, guardian, traveler, tyrant echo thingies.

Ohhh... makes sense!

[SpiralngCadavr]

Ah, guessed that's what you meant, and, yeah, I've never seen the need to take them- I feel like spending a stone defensively is about as good, doesn't need an action*, and doesn't cost an upgrade slot/cost of an upgrade. That leaves the other effects, and I make a rule of not paying for one-use items unless they're spectacular.

*do they take an action? Shows how much I care about them...

[Drool_bucket]

Couple locals are trying the Guild Stone on LadyJ. It makes her a real threat against most Ml 5 or less enemy model because with a stone and a decent card she can pull her Riposte off pretty easily.

But, from what I've seen I find it more of a threat than an actual thing, it becomes really resource intensive for minimal return.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yeah, the statrocks don't seem worth it.

I'm starting to wonder if Nothing Beast (much as I love the model) is too much glass for not enough cannon.

I know I still need to learn more about Tara's play style, but right now, it feels like Killjoy does everything Nothing Beast does, better, and stays on the table much longer, for only a few soulstones more.

[LupusFerreus]

Totems have a bad habit of being amazing must take or useless crap.

I've found the Wendigo to be a great totem for a variety of uses. I haven't even used him for Devour yet. I find it's too tempting to blast people to death rather than paralyse. He's a great totem - significant for objectives, decent melee and can give Rasputina fast. I'm wondering about when not to take him though - maybe turf war.

[Omenbringer]

Piglets (difficult to use and not rewarding enough) and Pigapult (the amount of resources you need to put into it is not worth it).

I would agree with the piglets for sure. In addition to the changes to Sett'er Off, to really make them worthwhile you need both the Hog Whisperer and the Gremlin Taxidermist. Som'er losing Soeey! (and by virtue the Skeeters losing it as well) has made them very difficult to control in any real way. Sett'er Off makes even the "Truffle Shuffle" only mildly useful (which is really to bad).

Not sure I agree completely about the Pigapult. The support/ resources it needs to function at optimum efficiency are things that I generally take anyway (of course Som'er and Lenny are my preferred set up, so it is less of a drain for me). With other Masters I would agree.

[Big Ned]

For me, it's totems. Purifying Flame, Emberling, Shang. Just don't like any of those three.

Yeah, it's the emberling for me. I've tried hm a bunch but I just don't 'get' him.

I get much more value out of spending 1ss and getting a Steam arachnid.

[DeleteAccount]

Yeah, it's the emberling for me. I've tried hm a bunch but I just don't 'get' him.

I get much more value out of spending 1ss and getting a Steam arachnid.

The emberling is pretty bah till you notice it's a significant wk 5 incorporeal minion. He is probably one of the best models cost/effectiveness for scenario purposes being able to skedaddle to a flank easily thanks to the incorporeal and start planting scheme markers. Also, dropping a scrap has given Mei Feng a good pivot once in a while.

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

As for Bete Noir, she has been hit and miss with me, but when she is hit, she is pure evil.

As for never use... I have the same issue with the Oiran, though rotten belle's are frankly broken for their cost. Samurai I'm also iffy towards but I do want to try them on the table and see if it's just an impression or not.

[Joel]

Ugh...samurai.

I've used the statrock upgrade before BTW, with justice for upping riposte chances or simply pushing Wp sky high vs. Neverborn.

Also on Sonnia to push Df, although only in a crew with ronin as she's stone hungry enough already.

[RagingRodian]

Agreed on waldgeist. When they changed their forests from dense to severe they went from always take to almost-never take for me.

Ever play against three of them upgraded to be able to deploy six inches outside of your deployment zone, protected by not only Armor but Perfect Camoflage? They charge in, boxing in your models, and if you kill one a Bad Juju pops out? Right into an engagement with full AP available? Using Flurry and Landslide, possibly even getting off a Paralyze in the process? When you finally kill the Bad Juju he can just Bury and then Unbury again when another Waldgeist dies?

Having a slightly weaker zero action doesn't even begin to make Waldgeists useless. Not that Germinate is that bad now.

[Justin]

Ever play against three of them upgraded to be able to deploy six inches outside of your deployment zone, protected by not only Armor but Perfect Camoflage? They charge in, boxing in your models, and if you kill one a Bad Juju pops out? Right into an engagement with full AP available? Using Flurry and Landslide, possibly even getting off a Paralyze in the process? When you finally kill the Bad Juju he can just Bury and then Unbury again when another Waldgeist dies?

Having a slightly weaker zero action doesn't even begin to make Waldgeists useless. Not that Germinate is that bad now.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UQv2JUZoU

[LordZombie]

Knowing what I know, statrocks are hilarious. They are a waste of space that could have been used for a good upgrade, but some people out there thought the game needed them.

As a newly recruited Ten Thunder player, I got two for them.

Samurai. So cool an idea, so terrible a model. If they didn't have the gun and the cost for the gun, they would be great.

Dawn Serpent. 10ss of ....something? Such a cool looking model (judging it will look like the art) but it just is not good at anything. At 10ss, the model should be good at least one thing and not just taking up space.