Which titles across all factions are now better than the original?

[Cranky Old Man]

I have been trying out a few masters and it is rare that the original version is a better choice over the title. I think many are on par and just change up the play style which is great. Others though I don’t think the OG will be chosen over the title. I think Pandora is better as title. Kirai2 is bonkers, new lady j seems so much better the new Marcus is so very much better than the original.  Which masters to you seem stronger in the title, which are on pat and which are not as good as it’s original version?

[Azahul]

Can't speak to the other factions but Outcasts seem to have mostly landed on par. Zipp's title is probably weaker than his original but I haven't got him on the table yet. Parker2 is stronger than Parker1 but I don't know if that says much since Parker1 is on the lacklustre side. None of the others are notably better or worse than their originals I think, though I'd expect Tara2 to end up being a lot worse than Tara1 when she inevitably loses the 33 kidnap play.

[Rufess]

In Bayou I think only Ophelia and Brewmaster are having a better title.

original Mah and Zipp still bring more value than their title version. I heard some players did have success in Somer2, but I like Somer1 more for better flexibility.

Others are imo on par with either version.

[James Dyson]

Just based on my experiences so far, acknowledging I haven't played with or against all titles enough to form a more nuanced opinion:

Guild - I think Sonnia, Lucius, Perdita are the go to masters where titles are a solid default pick, with only Perdita I'd consider a near always pick.

Arcanists - Toni 2 is so fun to play and feels really strong, despite not getting a ton of press lately.  Marcus title is very strong.  

Resurrectionist - Yan Lo's title does a lot of work.  McMourning Insanitary does most of what his first version did outside of being a tech hire vs armor.  Otherwise, I really feel Ressurs are nicely balanced between their master titles.

Neverborn - I really like Pandora, Tyrant Torn and Lucius, Dishonorable.  Euripides, Old One Eye feels like a solid primary form to use.  Marcus, again.

Outcast - feel pretty balanced between both titles for outcast masters, or favor original titles as a default 

Bayou - Brewmaster and Ulix to me seem like upgrades to their originals, and the others are sidegrades or comparable picks.

Ten Thunders - Yan Lo 2 as mentioned above.  Youko, Unseen may be a better general pick over Youko, original.  Lynch, Dark Bet feels like a better general pick over original Lynch.

Explorers - from what I hear, Nexus, one of Many and Maxine, Breachburnt are the bees knees.

[Avatar of Butter]

I guess I'll be a dissenting voice, and say that I haven't heard a lot of positive things about the Outcast titles from my play group.

• Hamelin2 does have Obey, but it turns out that a lot of Plague keyword actions aren't valid Obey targets because they mention Rats. It turns out that the efficiency of Unclean Influence was the only thing that made the "rat cycle" work, and the loss of the Black Staff hurts. On the other hand, the stuff that the Piper gets feels a little janky. Spreading Death lets you re-use Blight Tokens... but they spread onto your models. The Piper's Influence lets you add a suit to opposed duels... but with the notable exception of the Rat King's Onslaught, there aren't many suits you need in the Plague keyword. Eyes in the Walls lets you remove markers from range... but you need to drop an 8+ to trigger it.
• Von Schill2 has gotten a lot of mediocre reviews. I haven't played him yet, but I've heard a few people complain that his new tools are more finicky to apply than they look, and his improved damage output rarely makes up for the reduction in support abilities.
• Zipp2, as has been mentioned elsewhere, is a little bit confusing and probably not as good as Zipp1. although that might be more an issue of Zipp1 being amazing than Zipp2 being disappointing.
• Leveticus2 is really cool, but he might as well be $150 considering the cost of Horsemen that Outcasts otherwise won't be able to use.
• Tara2 does cool things, but, much like Asami2, her crew becomes notably vulnerable to getting tabled when you aren't able to summon more. Once the 33 kidnap inevitably gets errata'd, I'm not sure that she's going to pull enough weight to justify taking her over Tara1
• Parker2 is... hotly contested. This is the model that has the most varied opinion on it. Some people love him, some people hate him.

So, of the Outcast title masters, Jack Daw2 is the only one that I've heard unambiguously good things about, and he's not going to be "replacing" Jack Daw1. I haven't heard anything about Viktoria2 one way or another, so I'm not sure what to make of that.

[Mindbadger]

22 minutes ago, Avatar of Butter said:

 

• Hamelin2 does have Obey, but it turns out that a lot of Plague keyword actions aren't valid Obey targets because they mention Rats. It turns out that the efficiency of Unclean Influence was the only thing that made the "rat cycle" work, and the loss of the Black Staff hurts. On the other hand, the stuff that the Piper gets feels a little janky. Spreading Death lets you re-use Blight Tokens... but they spread onto your models. The Piper's Influence lets you add a suit to opposed duels... but with the notable exception of the Rat King's Onslaught, there aren't many suits you need in the Plague keyword. Eyes in the Walls lets you remove markers from range... but you need to drop an 8+ to trigger it.
•  

I had a game against Hamelin 2 and he actually feels harder to play against compared to Hamelin 1. Irresistible Dance and Obedience are extra things to play around and give him power outside his activation, plus he seems to do better with versatiles and Obeying enemies compared to Plague models. The Music in the Air trigger was incredibly annoying for positioning. Spreading Death is very good, allows you to really spread the blight and if you are forced to put it on your own models, well, it doesn't actually do anything negative for you. Even if only 1 of the 3 blight tokens ends up on an enemy, it's still a net gain.

[Avatar of Butter]

14 minutes ago, Mindbadger said:

 he seems to do better with versatiles and Obeying enemies compared to Plague models.

You hit the nail on the head: Plague is a keyword where the models have deliberately terrible stats to make up for the rat and blight synergies. The Piper has much less rat synergy than Hamelin1, so most people are just ditching all the rat-centered models (Rat Catchers, Rat Kings, Rats, Benny) in favor of generic Versatile picks. Masters only taking 13 stones worth of keyword models (Nix and the Wretch) is, to my mind, not a signal of a healthy design.

I'm not saying that Hamelin2 is a bad master (Obey masters are never BAD), but he's certainly never going to outshine Hamelin1 in my eyes.

[Azahul]

5 hours ago, Mindbadger said:

I had a game against Hamelin 2 and he actually feels harder to play against compared to Hamelin 1. Irresistible Dance and Obedience are extra things to play around and give him power outside his activation, plus he seems to do better with versatiles and Obeying enemies compared to Plague models. The Music in the Air trigger was incredibly annoying for positioning. Spreading Death is very good, allows you to really spread the blight and if you are forced to put it on your own models, well, it doesn't actually do anything negative for you. Even if only 1 of the 3 blight tokens ends up on an enemy, it's still a net gain.

Obedience is ok but Hamelin1's version of a similar aura, Coughing Fits, is actually far more useful.

 

The reason I didn't call out Hamelin2 as outright weaker is mostly that Obey plus hiring a bunch of Versatile and OOK models means he plays into different pools than Hamelin1, so he doesn't feel like he's in direct competition or eclipsing the original version. But yeah from a gameplay perspective 2 feels very clunky and I don't like his playstyle as much as 1.

[Maniacal_cackle]

For ressers, people treat McMourning, Yan Lo, and Kirai like they obsolete the originals but I'm not sure if I agree with that assessment.

If anything makes McMourning 1 obsolete, it is the new tech gained by factions he previously would have preyed upon (Guild).

[Autumn King]

As far as Neverborn are concerned, I would say Euripides Old One Eye is an improvement and is far mor versatile then his OG counterpart. He may have lost some of his melee capability and Pillar creation, but his crew still has it in abundance. His new Hepatomancy with Old Ways is crazy powerful combo.  Additionally, one of his teams' main weaknesses was their difficulty to unpack at the start due to their large sizes.  Avalanche pretty much solves that issue.  Another weakness of his keyword is their susceptibility to range attacks.  I feel his Eye lasers, with guaranteed blasts and second shots bouncing off of Ice pillars, gives him a good amount of firepower to fight back.

[Banjulhu]

Perdita 2 and Lady J 2 for the Guild seem like out and out upgrades and all the both of them have seemingly lost is a touch of personal damage potential which is moot given they both now make big parts of their Keywords much more scary/efficient.

[dannydb]

For Arcanists outside of Toni and Marcus I feel the originals are either better or about par (hoff 2 is superior as a 2nd master in mei 2 cos of the comand construct laser thing but thats reason 5943 why multiple masters are bad)

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Perdita 2 and Lady J 2 for the Guild seem like out and out upgrades and all the both of them have seemingly lost is a touch of personal damage potential which is moot given they both now make big parts of their Keywords much more scary/efficient.

I had an opponent select Lady Justice 1 against my McMourning with two gwisin, and it felt harder than if he just took LJ2.

[Autumn King]

I think one problem with this discussion, is what do we define as better.  I feel all the masters have improvements at somethings, while new weaknesses created in others.  For example, I think OG Jack Daw is far more oppressive in the right strats and schemes, then Jack Daw 2.  However, Jack Daw 2 seems more universally playable and versatile.  Some Masters went from key beaters to more of heavy support pieces.  All seem to have their specialties, unique strengths, and weaknesses. It all depends on the strat and scheme pools.

[theamazingmrg]

8 hours ago, Autumn King said:

I think one problem with this discussion, is what do we define as better.  I feel all the masters have improvements at somethings, while new weaknesses created in others.  For example, I think OG Jack Daw is far more oppressive in the right strats and schemes, then Jack Daw 2.  However, Jack Daw 2 seems more universally playable and versatile.  Some Masters went from key beaters to more of heavy support pieces.  All seem to have their specialties, unique strengths, and weaknesses. It all depends on the strat and scheme pools.

As someone who has played Basse 1 I completley agree.  Basse 2 does a lot of things that Basse 1 doesn't, but I still think I prefer the original because that shotgun is glorious.  I'm not sure which is better, but they do different things.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

20 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

As someone who has played Basse 1 I completley agree.  Basse 2 does a lot of things that Basse 1 doesn't, but I still think I prefer the original because that shotgun is glorious.  I'm not sure which is better, but they do different things.

all kinds of this.  Basse 2 i feel tries to trap you into using dust clouds as death bed targets which is fine until he dies and you are unable to score the 2nd point. 

The amount of injured basse 1 can put out is glorious and not to be sniffed at

[DefectiveDice]

Marcus is the first one who stands out to me. I have not gotten to play Hoffman 2 yet but ive heard he is better.

[theamazingmrg]

3 minutes ago, DefectiveDice said:

Marcus is the first one who stands out to me. I have not gotten to play Hoffman 2 yet but ive heard he is better.

I haven't played Marcus but I can see it.  Hoff 2 is great, but "better" may not be true.  His entire crew is more independent, thanks to Pylons, and the irreducible damage is superb, but Hoff 1 was more of a support Master who buffed his crew.  As good as Hoff 2 is, I can't put Fast on Joss anymore.  That in itself is a downside!

[DefectiveDice]

4 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

I haven't played Marcus but I can see it.  Hoff 2 is great, but "better" may not be true.  His entire crew is more independent, thanks to Pylons, and the irreducible damage is superb, but Hoff 1 was more of a support Master who buffed his crew.  As good as Hoff 2 is, I can't put Fast on Joss anymore.  That in itself is a downside!

Oh okay interesting. I would love to give him a go, but my primary opponent always takes a ton of anti armor so its tricky lol

[santaclaws01]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:58 AM, Autumn King said:

As far as Neverborn are concerned, I would say Euripides Old One Eye is an improvement and is far mor versatile then his OG counterpart. He may have lost some of his melee capability and Pillar creation, but his crew still has it in abundance. His new Hepatomancy with Old Ways is crazy powerful combo.  Additionally, one of his teams' main weaknesses was their difficulty to unpack at the start due to their large sizes.  Avalanche pretty much solves that issue.  Another weakness of his keyword is their susceptibility to range attacks.  I feel his Eye lasers, with guaranteed blasts and second shots bouncing off of Ice pillars, gives him a good amount of firepower to fight back.

Of the 2, Euri1 is definitely more versatile. Euri2 is a support master masquerading as a melee/ranged beater. Euri1 can easily swap between area control, beating and scheming as needed. 

As for Euri2 fixing Euri1's unpack issues, my only response is what unpack issues, especially with Kaltgeists now. In all my Euri1 games I've never had a problem with unpacking my crew. Yeah Euri2 can open up more paths for the crew, but it's far from necessary, and makes Euri2 even slower when compared to Euri1, since Euri1 is already barely ever spending actions on moving unless it's a charge.

[regleant]

I can only speak to a few Ten Thunders masters. The new Youko (Qi and Gong) is lightyears ahead of her original incarnation and quickly became one of my favorites. Ironically, she is strong taking a bunch of non-keyword models. The rest of the keywords feel either neutral or weaker, to me.

[Autumn King]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:06 PM, santaclaws01 said:

Of the 2, Euri1 is definitely more versatile. Euri2 is a support master masquerading as a melee/ranged beater. Euri1 can easily swap between area control, beating and scheming as needed. 

As for Euri2 fixing Euri1's unpack issues, my only response is what unpack issues, especially with Kaltgeists now. In all my Euri1 games I've never had a problem with unpacking my crew. Yeah Euri2 can open up more paths for the crew, but it's far from necessary, and makes Euri2 even slower when compared to Euri1, since Euri1 is already barely ever spending actions on moving unless it's a charge.

I don't think I disagree on any individual point, and would go so far as to recant my original statement.  I would say, I don't think there I bad situation to have Hepatomancy. Please see my second comment on this topic.

 

On 7/7/2022 at 8:44 PM, Autumn King said:

I think one problem with this discussion, is what do we define as better.  I feel all the masters have improvements at somethings, while new weaknesses created in others.  For example, I think OG Jack Daw is far more oppressive in the right strats and schemes, then Jack Daw 2.  However, Jack Daw 2 seems more universally playable and versatile.  Some Masters went from key beaters to more of heavy support pieces.  All seem to have their specialties, unique strengths, and weaknesses. It all depends on the strat and scheme pools.

 

[scarlett fever]

I can only speak with any degree of confidence on TT, even if I have opinions on other Masters.

In a vacuum most TT Titles are better than OG but not all.

I think Titles are in a weird place where Ideally picking title after Master reveal should have an impact, but in TT it's generally a moot point.

Let's say the scheme and strat pool is X and you've chosen Misaki (who is one of the best candidates for the Title having a different role to fufill to the OG). You already know the pool before the Title pick so you should be leaning into one version of Misaki over the other. This means the only real impact is what Master your opponent has chosen and there's not so much counter tech difference between Master versions in TT that this really makes a difference. You're probably always better to do your counter tech in your crew build. If the Pool favours Misaki 2 over Misaki 1 you are either a Misaki stan or you probably chose the 'wrong' Master in the first place.

That out the way this is my take on TT;

Asami - OG is better than Shintaku hands down

Lynch - Dark Debt is better than OG

McCabe - Tomb Delver is better than Relic Hunter. But Relic Hunter has such a different play style to Tomb Delver that I def play him a lot, they like different pools and match-ups. But I'm a McCabe stan and I suspect maybe this might be 'incorrect' in a pure theory space.

Mei Feng - Foreman is better than OG. Dropping OG beater Mei has it's place though

Misaki - I thoroughly enjoy the playstyle of Fractured Misaki but OG Misaki is just better

Shenlong - OG is better than Teacher. Teacher is put together poorly, his own abilities contradict themselves. There is a narrow pool where you might pick Teacher over OG but again i suspect this is not the correct play

Yan Lo - Yan 2 suffers from being a new bogeyman, I do wonder if both options may have viability? Before the Titles there was a sense from some top players that OG Yan was perhaps the best Master in TT, which was weird when he plays better and has more flexibility in Ressers. Yan 2 has been terrorising scenes since his release and he's crazy strong so has completely eclipsed the OG which is a bit more clunky and wordy to play, but still really strong. My caveat to this is that my experience in burns has been a lot of alpha strike and massive mobility, which as a slow burn Master the OG is not fond of. So perhaps the Title is still just better.

Youko - Unseen is better than OG. There may be a narrow pool where OG is better but you prob picked the wrong Master.

So probably 3 out of 8 of the OG are just better in TT.

I think there's a place for fielding both Titles and OGs if you have a small stable of Masters you're comfortable fielding, but in a purely competitive space I'm not certain this holds up.

 

[fire5tone]

On 7/6/2022 at 12:34 PM, Avatar of Butter said:

Hamelin2 does have Obey, but it turns out that a lot of Plague keyword actions aren't valid Obey targets because they mention Rats.

The FAQ changed this so it works, you just cant use the rat trigger

[Azahul]

44 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

The FAQ changed this so it works, you just cant use the rat trigger

Still a lot of actions that name models in their main text. The most notable is Tangle Together, to let you get a King on the table the turn the rats are summoned, but others include Rat Problem, Mouldy Cheese, Loyal Rats in Tiny Hats, and even the Yellow Teeth attack on the Rats themselves (not that you'd want to Obey rats, but not much).